WBFO Format Changes

[SirRoxalot]

Your analogy falls apart because WBFO isn't FIRING anybody. And there are no 7-figure salaries at WBFO. And WBFO isn't owned by NPR. And a jazz host doesn't necessary make a good host for another kind of music and/or talk show.

WBFO, looking at the success of news/talk during the majority of the day, has decided to make a complete commitment to news/talk during the day. Their major source of news/talk programming is NPR, supplemented nicely by a fine local staff. That's the formula that's working for them, and is the least expensive option available.

 

[TheBigA]

Your analogy falls apart because WBFO isn't FIRING anybody.

Not yet. Although the writing is on the wall.

But my analogy is quite correct in that this station is replacing local music programming with national syndication. As are lots of other NPR stations. But if any commercial station were to do it, you'd howl about corporate agendas. Meanwhile local public radio programming is disappearing across the country, just as it is at hundreds of locally owned commercial stations. So the lesson here is that the result can be the same, but it's OK as long as the decision is made locally.

So if Fox-Fur decides to carry a syndicated host 7 to midnight on his new country station in Syracuse, it's OK, because he's a local owner who isn't answering to some corporate slob with stock options someplace else. But if YRK makes the exact same decision, it's just more of the same corporate crapola. And I'm sure the local audience understands all that, and agrees with you.

 

[SirRoxalot]

The difference is that WBFO isn't trading a local jazz host for a syndicated jazz host. The move isn't being dictated by a corporate structure over the objections of local management. And, the move isn't going to cost WBFO revenue.

 

[TheBigA]

I see. So if the local Entercom GM decides to flip WLKK to an automated Urban AC format from Dial-Global, over the objections of corporate, and it leads to an increase in revenue, that's OK with you? I'm not saying it's likely, but I'm just asking.

 

[SirRoxalot]

At least it would be understandable, unlike several of the cuts that have been made locally because of corporate dictates.

This is radio. If what you're doin' ain't cuttin' it, you don't expect somebody to keep handing you a paycheck. But we've seen the #1 rated guy on a radio station dumped for an out-of-town VT because corporate dictated it, and watched the ratings tumble. The lost revenue far outweighed the salary cut. That's just one example, in one market, but there are other examples in this market as well. Multiply that by multiple owners of multiple stations in multiple markets.

 

[aaronread]

I see they are keeping jazz overnights. While I am a huge jazz fan, I would think it would be in their interest to drop the format completely, and run news and talk 24 hours a day during the week. I see they are keeping their blues shows on weekend afternoons.

One thing I've noticed about NPR stations is that they have an inherent block format approach to their schedule. That tends to mean they can get away with targeting completely different audiences at different dayparts without many of the downsides that your average music station (especially a commercial music station) would tend to suffer.

This doesn't mean you can put news one hour and jazz the next and do it willy-nilly. But it does mean you can put news/talk by day and jazz by night and actually come out ahead in the game. Especially since the kind of listener you typically get between 6 or 7pm and 12mid is usually a very different listener from before 6pm.

Your analogy falls apart because WBFO isn't FIRING anybody.

Not yet. Although the writing is on the wall.

How many people work at WBFO? They have to keep at least five FT staff in order to qualify for CPB funding. Also, remember that the employees of WBFO are...AFAIK...employees of SUNY. Despite dire budget predictions, never underestimate how hard it is to get laid off/fired from a college. Even now it's pretty tough, and to put it in perspective: until this "Great Recession of 2008" I'd have dismissed any layoffs as sheer nonsense; it's that hard.

And it usually takes a lot more time than one would expect. After all, look at all the "dire budget pronouncements" coming out of Albany yet the budgets they're proposing are basically more of the same nonsense we've seen for years. We still haven't hit the "holy crap we really need to change things" threshold yet...both in terms of the state's budget and in terms of how any given college (including SUNY) really operates. That's still two or three years away, at least; colleges just move slower.

Obviously WBFO, since they interact with the "real world" and in "real time" more than most college departments, is more subject to changes in the economy, and thus (VERY generally speaking) has to make changes sooner. I'd assume that's why you're seeing this schedule change. Well, that...and I'd imagine WGBH's move to news/talk is making a lot of music or mixed music/news stations feel that it's "okay" to make "radical" changes to the schedule. "If they can do it..."

 

[TheBigA]

That tends to mean they can get away with targeting completely different audiences at different dayparts without many of the downsides that your average music station (especially a commercial music station) would tend to suffer.

Well actually they DO suffer the downsides, which is exactly why so many are focusing on one format for the majority of their day. The obvious downside to block programming is the inability to create a format identity other than the general "public radio" brand. They know, and their own research arm have proven, that if stations focus on one format, even if that format is one musical genre, they will be more successful overall than if they do a bunch of formats. Notice I say "overall." Because it's possible to raise piles of money (and we did it at my station) with specialty shows, primarily on weekends. My college station was able to raise enough money with eight 1-hour ethnic shows run on weekends to pay for regular programming during the rest of the week.

But now that public radio stations are showing up in the 12+ ratings in PPM markets, they are realizing that format identity is important. NPR is primarily known for its news, so it makes sense for these stations to capitalize on that, even if it means forsaking their heritage or their mission as cultural institutions.

 

[aaronread]

Well I was speaking in the broad sense. In particular I was thinking of WGBH, which may have "gone news/talk" but still has Eric in the Evening with jazz...a setup that I suspect brings in a lot more dollars than if WGBH dumped jazz entirely and stayed news/talk through to midnight. Granted, I know the Boston market relatively well, whereas I don't really know the Buffalo market at all...so if you say WBFO couldn't do that sort of block approach without negative consequences, then it certainly doesn't surprise me.

FWIW, I haven't really done the research on this, but in response to your mention of the PPM/Arbitron...it's important to remember that DIARIES measure brand penetration and listener loyalty. Under a diary system, it very much behooves a pubradio station to streamline the schedule into one format to better establish a brand identity in the minds of listeners. But the PPM is different, it measures whatever happens to be "heard" (not necessarily "listened to") by the listener, and thus is much more tolerant of block programming; if you have a news/talk fan with a PPM, they'll tune in at X time and hear it...and if you have a music fan with a PPM, they'll tune in at Y time and hear it. Obviously this doesn't mean you can do TOO many different music formats lest you annoy everyone in the process...but it does mean that IN THEORY a news/talk-by-day & jazz-by-night pubradio station can fare better under the PPM than under diaries.

 

[TheBigA]

I was thinking of WGBH, which may have "gone news/talk" but still has Eric in the Evening with jazz...

I was also thinking of WGBH, and it appears BFO is doing the same thing, keeping jazz in fringe time. What GBH recently did was move its remaining classical over to CRB, and keeping the station news/talk all day.

We're at a point where it's pretty unimportant what a radio station does after 7 PM. The numbers are pretty small, and the audience is split among many more choices during that time.

I seem to remember GBH used to do jazz in the afternoons at one time. Or maybe it was BUR. One or the other used to flip back and forth between music and news every four hours or so, and even play jazz and classical on the same station. Can't do that any more.

 

[JimMcGrath]

We're at a point where it's pretty unimportant what a radio station does after 7 PM. The numbers are pretty small, and the audience is split among many more choices during that time.

Hypothetically speaking here, do you (board members) think two different formats could work on a station? For example News/talk days, music nights say after 8. Not necessarily starting it when Late Night is on but when most daytimers aren't listening anyway. To me that would be around 8PM.

 

[Bob1370]

"Hypothetically speaking here, do you (board members) think two different formats could work on a station? For example News/talk days, music nights say after 8. Not necessarily starting it when Late Night is on but when most daytimers aren't listening anyway. To me that would be around 8PM."

FWIW, at least some of the audience loss after 8 PM is due to the fact that too many stations throw in the towel at night programming-wise. Those that don't, actually bring in enough listening to make it more than worth their while. I think block programming worked fine for both noncomms and commercial stations on weekdays up through the 1980s...but these days, you really need to have round-the-clock format consistency in all dayparts at least on weekdays. Block-programming around specialty and how-to shows work better on weekends, they're consistent with the change of pace we expect in our overall lifestyle on non-working days.

A large market should be able to support a noncomm that does only news, talk and spoken word specialty weekend shows, and one or more noncomms that specialize in music that the commercial stations don't do, or don't do well, along with enough in the way of regular news updates to keep people in touch with the big stuff. The news/talker can be on either AM or FM while the music station or stations should clearly be on FM.

For Buffalo an ideal solution would be for either WBFO, WNED or some other college with enough $$$ to run it right while it builds an underwriting and membership base to get that new 92.1 allocation, and devote it to jazz and specialty arts programming with a contemporary edge. There's a genuine market for such a station and it would complement what the existing ones do. Rochester has WBER (new rock), WGMC (jazz) and WRUR (AAA and specialty music along with news) complement the WXXI news/talk and classical/fine arts stations. Depending on what happens to that 92.1 station, Buffalo could be similarly fortunate. It's always best if there are multiple noncomm stations, each serving different audiences that the commercial stations ignore, while not trying (and inevitably failing) to be all things to all people.

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

Hypothetically speaking here, do you (board members) think two different formats could work on a station? For example News/talk days, music nights say after 8. Not necessarily starting it when Late Night is on but when most daytimers aren't listening anyway. To me that would be around 8PM.

This recalls the 50-50 format that Westinghouse did for a period of time in the late 60s or 70s on WBZ (was it Larry Glick who used to say, "we'll B-Z'ing you!") and some of their other flamethrowers, wherein they did music from 6 a. to 6 p. and talk from 6 p. to 6 a. Obviously, things are far different these days.

My concern for WNED-AM harkens back to the days when FM radio overtook AM in the "hipness factor," TSL and cume. If the same program is on AM and FM, it's conceivable that listeners would prefer to hear it on FM. Given that WNED-AM has a highly directional signal (I live in one of its nulls but still do what I can to hear it, like balancing the radio on its side, etc.) Will potential listeners simply switch to FM?

_________________________________________________

BTW, a Larry Glick story. Years ago, when Glick worked at WBZ, he also owned a small market AM station in New England. One of his former employees applied for a job at the station I was programming, so I called Glick to get a reference on the guy. Glick was personable and the conversation went smoothly until I brought up his former employee's name. He literally exploded. (The following works better if you remember Glick and can imagine his on-air cadence and New England accent.) "The guy's a mental case! There's nothing good about him. Nothing." (I could swear he spit into the phone after that sentence.) "He's nuts. I'll tell you how nuts he is... he's has to be crazy to use me as a reference because I fired him for being a lousy employee and I told him NOT to use me as a reference. I'll tell you what to do, sir. Burn that resume!"

I had to restrain myself from laughing because it was classic Larry Glick. I wish I had recorded the conversation. These days, you can't come within ten miles of offering that kind of evaluation of a former employee. Nor, I think, would you want to.

 

[Bob1370]

"Glick was personable and the conversation went smoothly until I brought up his former employee's name. He literally exploded. (The following works better if you remember Glick and can imagine his on-air cadence and New England accent.) "The guy's a mental case! There's nothing good about him. Nothing." (I could swear he spit into the phone after that sentence.) "He's nuts. I'll tell you how nuts he is... he's has to be crazy to use me as a reference because I fired him for being a lousy employee and I told him NOT to use me as a reference. I'll tell you what to do, sir. Burn that resume!""

I take it Mr. Glick's former employee never made it into the WGR lineup? ;-)

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

Bob, that was well before WGR, actually 1550 WBVM, Utica. Save for burning the resume, I took the man's advice. Pass.

 

[Ed Trefzger]

KUVO in Denver, a long-time all-jazz public outlet, recently added The Takeaway from 5am - 8am. They found they were getting few listeners during that time slot and were losing their audience to the NPR and commercial news outlets. I haven't seen reports in the past few years, but WGMC in Rochester finds that the top two P2 for its listeners are not other music stations, but WHAM and WXXI-AM.

In January 2001, I attended a presentation with WDUQ's Scott Hanley and KXJZ's Gary Vercelli on combined news/jazz formats. They pointed out the "tent-poles" they saw around a.m. and p.m. drive when they carried NPR news programs. The intervening decade has seen many stations fill those gaps with NPR news and talk instead of locally-originated programming, especially in the first 4-5 years of that span.

 

[aaronread]

The dropoff in listenership is part of the reason why WEOS repeats World Cafe from 9-10pm and then goes to Echoes from 10pm-12mid. Those shows have their fans, they're good shows in general, and honestly it's not like anything else we'd put there would have massively better ratings. If WEOS were exclusively news/talk I'd probably just put on the BBC World Service, perhaps with a late-night repeat of ATC...both of which also would have fans and are good programming in general. But I wouldn't expect it to garner significantly more ratings than what we've got now.

Of course, the other reason for the repeats is because WEOS used to have student shows on at night, which were pretty much exclusively music. We had to have WC/Echoes in place so if no student took that shift (or if a student blew off a shift that night) there'd still be music playing in that timeslot...as opposed to news.

Even 9pm is being generous, though. Our Arbitrons show a steep dropoff after 6pm, and it hits bottom by 7 - 8pm usually. Not much we can do about it; people just don't listen to the radio much once they've driven home and are cooking dinner...they're more likely to be watching TV. Although one thing I'm looking forward to seeing in this Spring's book is whether or not Marketplace holds on to listeners until 6:30pm, or whether we just lose people at 6pm no matter what.

 

[TheBigA]

I agree...there is an assumption among radio people that compelling programming will cause people to change their personal habits. While that may be the case with a few, it's not true among most. People are much busier now, and most media is such that people can download what they want when it's convenient and not be tied to real time broadcasting. The future for radio is to learn how to program that way.

 

[umtrr-author]

Hypothetically speaking here, do you (board members) think two different formats could work on a station? For example News/talk days, music nights say after 8. Not necessarily starting it when Late Night is on but when most daytimers aren't listening anyway. To me that would be around 8PM.

I have a rimshot example, so to speak... not public, and not in this market...

New Jersey 101.5 (WKXW Trenton) has a split format between weekdays and weekends. During the weekdays (and nights) they are news/talk. But starting at 7PM Friday night, "On weekends the music comes out to play" and they do a creditable job (in my opinion anyway) of emulating the glory days of WABC, complete with PAMS jingles that are essentially the same as I remember at WABC. I think they started with 50s to 70's and now they are doing 70's and 80's.

They do stream at www.nj1015.com . Not sure what their ratings are like for the weekends.

 

[Element9]

Hypothetically speaking here, do you (board members) think two different formats could work on a station? For example News/talk days, music nights say after 8. Not necessarily starting it when Late Night is on but when most daytimers aren't listening anyway. To me that would be around 8PM.

I have a rimshot example, so to speak... not public, and not in this market...

New Jersey 101.5 (WKXW Trenton) has a split format between weekdays and weekends. During the weekdays (and nights) they are news/talk. But starting at 7PM Friday night, "On weekends the music comes out to play" and they do a creditable job (in my opinion anyway) of emulating the glory days of WABC, complete with PAMS jingles that are essentially the same as I remember at WABC. I think they started with 50s to 70's and now they are doing 70's and 80's.

They do stream at www.nj1015.com . Not sure what their ratings are like for the weekends.

This is SOP for many FM talkers that discovered weekend "best of" shows don't get anywhere near the ratings as perhaps Classic Rock, Alternative or in the case of NJ 101.5, Classic Hits. In some major markets, the Free FM hot talkers resorted to music on weekends and the weekend music programming earned better shares than the weekday talk show hosts' "best of" shows. Unlike AM talk stations, FM talk can't pull off the "ask the plumber" shows. The colon blow hour might make some quick cash, but it kills any credibility that the FM talker may have had during the week. Weekend air talent on FM stations can be marginal at best. Very often they get compared to the weekday regulars, which isn't fair, but. FM talkers found that their P1 listeners moved to music-based stations on the weekends. It's the nature of the lister. So the most productive thing to do is play the hits and run plenty of promos for the talk show hosts, e.g., "Coming up Monday" or "Next week on NJ 101.5..." and have a few good jocks who know the music and are good at what they do... playin' the hits.