I
ILOVERADIO2
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Spent the day in NYC and had a chance to listen to some stations. I really like the audio of WCBS FM. Anyone know what they use? The jocks voice sounded crisp. Good job!
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AFAIK, yes, together with some custom processing ahead of it, but that was a year ago, and it may have changed since then.erwin33 said:I thought they still using Optimod 8500.
WCBS-FM's sonic signature is lots of "presence" (upper midrange) boost.
I was through that area a year or two ago & had the same observation...the audio sounded so good compared to anything I'd heard. Mike Erickson orchestrated that sound and is to be commended for it.
Here's a post by Mike in which he explained the secret part of CBS-FM's processing:
http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=171409.msg1478313#msg1478313
However a few months later, there were some complaints on the NYC board about CBS-FM sounding not as good anymore since Mike left the station to join Wheatstone/Vorsis, and a rumor that his custom-modified Behringer compressor was no longer in use.
http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=171409.msg1478313#msg1478313
However a few months later, there were some complaints on the NYC board about CBS-FM sounding not as good anymore since Mike left the station to join Wheatstone/Vorsis, and a rumor that his custom-modified Behringer compressor was no longer in use.
satech said:Here's a post by Mike in which he explained the secret part of CBS-FM's processing:
http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=171409.msg1478313#msg1478313
However a few months later, there were some complaints on the NYC board about CBS-FM sounding not as good anymore since Mike left the station to join Wheatstone/Vorsis, and a rumor that his custom-modified Behringer compressor was no longer in use.
There is something about the concept of audio processing that is really ego-controlled.
The first thing some new CEs will do is go and undo whatever the previous guy had done. Sometimes it makes sense. A lot of times it is just self-indulgence.
I speak from experience on both sides of that fence. ;-)
David
Point well taken.Usually self indulgence.Sure an occasional tweaking may be in order,but I don't believe CBS FM had any issues.Got to go "Play" with K EARTH's processing now;-). I doubt you could even get close to it..Some folks know good processing when they hear it.
It isn't self indulgence....
It isn't self indulgence-it's FACT-and I'm not the only one that could do it, so it isn't ego either. Does WCBS-FM sound good? Yes- compared to the other stations in the market. But on it's own merits, they sound only fair. First off, there's a gain structure problem-you can hear it clearly with headphones on a decent monitor system. Second, the name BEHRINGER is a HUGE red flag. I'll also bet that there are 30 or 40 opamps in their chain that don't have to be there. Next-Optimod is okay-if average is what you want to be. There are better boxes out there-some a LOT cheaper too. There are also a few other tricks that can be done that I simply won't get into here.
IMHO, the audio quality of radio has gone DOWN in the past decade where it should have been going up. Yes some of it is the source material, but some is because we as engineers have gotten lazy-or perhaps too busy doing 19 stations. We throw boxes on line, play with a few presets, pat ourselves on the back and go home. Like I said, you can sound average this way-maybe even a bit above average-but never great. If you don't believe me, then come to Philadelphia and find my little AM station on the dial. Hint: it will be the one that blows every other one out of the water-including all the '50s! Did anyone even hear what Goran said in the Breakaway thread? THAT'S the attention to detail that makes great sounding radio!
And don't get me started about streaming radio-we've REALLY screwed that up too! Again, listen to WCBS-FM. Other then the fact that their crawl still says Jack-FM, when I listen the first thing I say to myself is: "Where's the bass?". The only quarter decent sounding NYC stream is WABC-IR 770 (aka: Rewind). Yes, it's a bit over compressed, but at least the music sounds like-music-unlike the wimpy sound that the others have. If you disagree with me then one of the following is true: 1. You are listening to a crap system with EQ inserted or 2. Your ears are filled with wax.
PS: I lived in LA until recently (hence my name) and yes K-EARTH sounds good-but only good-NOT great! Perhaps you could learn a few things by following the example of a former GREAT K-EARTH engineer, Bob Kanner.
It isn't self indulgence-it's FACT-and I'm not the only one that could do it, so it isn't ego either. Does WCBS-FM sound good? Yes- compared to the other stations in the market. But on it's own merits, they sound only fair. First off, there's a gain structure problem-you can hear it clearly with headphones on a decent monitor system. Second, the name BEHRINGER is a HUGE red flag. I'll also bet that there are 30 or 40 opamps in their chain that don't have to be there. Next-Optimod is okay-if average is what you want to be. There are better boxes out there-some a LOT cheaper too. There are also a few other tricks that can be done that I simply won't get into here.
IMHO, the audio quality of radio has gone DOWN in the past decade where it should have been going up. Yes some of it is the source material, but some is because we as engineers have gotten lazy-or perhaps too busy doing 19 stations. We throw boxes on line, play with a few presets, pat ourselves on the back and go home. Like I said, you can sound average this way-maybe even a bit above average-but never great. If you don't believe me, then come to Philadelphia and find my little AM station on the dial. Hint: it will be the one that blows every other one out of the water-including all the '50s! Did anyone even hear what Goran said in the Breakaway thread? THAT'S the attention to detail that makes great sounding radio!
And don't get me started about streaming radio-we've REALLY screwed that up too! Again, listen to WCBS-FM. Other then the fact that their crawl still says Jack-FM, when I listen the first thing I say to myself is: "Where's the bass?". The only quarter decent sounding NYC stream is WABC-IR 770 (aka: Rewind). Yes, it's a bit over compressed, but at least the music sounds like-music-unlike the wimpy sound that the others have. If you disagree with me then one of the following is true: 1. You are listening to a crap system with EQ inserted or 2. Your ears are filled with wax.
PS: I lived in LA until recently (hence my name) and yes K-EARTH sounds good-but only good-NOT great! Perhaps you could learn a few things by following the example of a former GREAT K-EARTH engineer, Bob Kanner.
Well,maybe you could tell the rest of us "Novices" your fix for cbs fm.Hard to argue with that cume and TSL.Lots of ears seem to like it.We may put too much credence in our view of processing.Reminds me a a eng friend who replaced his 03t with the 6,said he noticed the difference,but gee not one caller telling him how much better it sounded.I still love my bill sacks 8100a/Ariane..sounds sweet to my ears..Mr.Kanner & i crossed paths way back in 1977 WMCA.He knew his craft..And give me a well processed tube AM over any FM..Cheers
I cannot speak for changes after 17 Aug 2010, however
1) There were no "gain structure" issues. Every piece of gear was properly calibrated prior to the studios going on the air and none of that was changed while I was there.
2) The Behringer device you speak of was designed and built in Germany (not China) in the early-mid 1990's. It is of the same quality as the Behringer MDX-8000, which is this box Jim Somich modified to become the Banshee IV (also built in Germany). Later versions of that compressor were farmed out to China but not the one on the air at WCBS. If anything was the weak link in the audio it would be the Harris consoles and their analog inputs.
3) The internet stream is an Optimod 1100 PC that is wrapped around a second computer for ad insertion and a PPM Encoder. Not what I would consider ideal.
4) The source material on WCBS was suspect when I started and improved with the help of Dermot O'Neil and others. I did not get a chance to finish that project before I left. I would keep a running list of songs that needed help and evaluate and find the best replacement copy.
5) The Optimod was a Harris gift when WCBS went HD and I made do with it by turning off as much of it as possible. The Omnia 6 was pulled off the air before I got there and I wasn't about to reintroduce that. The cheaper boxes you speak of do not meet the needs for HD radio as most companies have standardized on a one-box solution which is what I had to do.
I'll actually be in Philadelphia next week, would love to record your station. Which one is it?
1) There were no "gain structure" issues. Every piece of gear was properly calibrated prior to the studios going on the air and none of that was changed while I was there.
2) The Behringer device you speak of was designed and built in Germany (not China) in the early-mid 1990's. It is of the same quality as the Behringer MDX-8000, which is this box Jim Somich modified to become the Banshee IV (also built in Germany). Later versions of that compressor were farmed out to China but not the one on the air at WCBS. If anything was the weak link in the audio it would be the Harris consoles and their analog inputs.
3) The internet stream is an Optimod 1100 PC that is wrapped around a second computer for ad insertion and a PPM Encoder. Not what I would consider ideal.
4) The source material on WCBS was suspect when I started and improved with the help of Dermot O'Neil and others. I did not get a chance to finish that project before I left. I would keep a running list of songs that needed help and evaluate and find the best replacement copy.
5) The Optimod was a Harris gift when WCBS went HD and I made do with it by turning off as much of it as possible. The Omnia 6 was pulled off the air before I got there and I wasn't about to reintroduce that. The cheaper boxes you speak of do not meet the needs for HD radio as most companies have standardized on a one-box solution which is what I had to do.
I'll actually be in Philadelphia next week, would love to record your station. Which one is it?
A rebuilt 8100 and Arianne are a powerful combination-even more so with a properly rebuilt MSI composite clipper to remove that 3/4 db of overshoot from the Optimod. Bill does a good job rebuilding the Orban products-but you might be surprised that he built his methods on the work of others, including me (I have been upgrading/rebuilding Optimods for over 30 years -as have others).
wgliradio said:I cannot speak for changes after 17 Aug 2010, however
I'll actually be in Philadelphia next week, would love to record your station. Which one is it?
Come to Philly and listen and then tell me. It's about 4 db over most everyone else, and clean bass, mids and highs and a well balanced amount of pre-emphasis. It will jump out at you, I assure you. And finally it doesn't have I-buzz-and never will!
Have a cp-803 that i think with newer caps and replacing those 5532;s?? ,would be a fine compliment to the combo...do you have a suitable chip in mind?Would love to hear your station.
First off the grounds in the '803 are piss poor. The original unit used the case for a power supply ground return. Later on they hacked parts of the traces away from the screw studs to make the grounds better-but it does not fix it. What I normally do is lift the two power supply caps from ground and run a nice heavy wire from them to the center tap of the power transformer then through a hole I drill in the inner case to the main circuit board (you can also use the feed through that goes to the RCA jack on the back). Some also install a pair of 12 volt 3 terminal regulators here. Next, the composite audio goes through two un-polarized tantalum capacitors-the worst possible thing you can do with a tantalum! One of these can be bypassed and the other replaced with a composite made up of a non-polar electrolytic bypassed with a high quality film capacitor. Next, the 5532s do need to be removed. I usually use National LM4562s, though there are better opamps out there-but not in DIP packages. The 4562 has over 120 db of power supply rejection, which means that they work well with unregulated supplies-but I always put .1 film capacitors directly from their power supply pins to ground. Finally, I lift the two silver mica capacitors from the input and output BNCs.
Thanks.I sent eric small a email regarding mods on this box to reduce distortion.He basically came unglued...so much for that email..I would like to get the box updated and on line .
wgliradio said:Which station in Philly?
900.
oldiesstation said:Thanks.I sent eric small a email regarding mods on this box to reduce distortion.He basically came unglued...so much for that email..I would like to get the box updated and on line .
Message me.
will do.years ago we built an AM from the ground up.unipole,broadband with an Harris MSP-100 not the 95 processor.Not sure if they built it,but that was one of the best AM's i;ve ever heard.I can't find many engs who even knew of the 100.But it was one hell of a box.
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