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WDIS/1170

DG02816 said:
If I remember, the Langer 1140 CP had 3 rows of 2 towers, with the tower pairs closely spaced to each other. Not sure if the RCA phasor at 990 could be tweaked to run that pattern. If indeed it could be done, power levels would have to drop a bit due to the higher radiation efficiency of the 990 1/4 wave towers, vs. a quarter-wave at 1140.

In the hope of minimizing confusion, I'm going to try describing the WALE configuration as having two COLUMNS of three towers each with the columns roughly 180 degrees apart and the Langer 1140 configuration as having three columns of two towers each, also with the columns roughly 180 degrees apart. This nomenclature leads to WALE having three ROWS of two towers each with the rows separated by approximately 90 degrees and the Langer 1140 configuration having two rows of three towers each, also with the rows separated by approximately 90 degrees. In each case, the columns are roughly parallel to the azimuth of the radiation maximum and the rows are roughly parallel to the azimuth of a line joining the radiation minima.

Among six-tower arrays, the Langer 1140 configuration is by far the more popular of the two, which is not to say that the WALE configuration is unique. Although both configurations are capable of generating narrow teardrop patterns, examination of a bunch of examples of both types suggests that the Langer 1140 configuration more readily produces deeper minima. OTOH, in situations where the rows are 90 degrees apart and the columns are 180 degrees apart, the WALE configuration requires slightly less land than the Langer 1140 configuration--even when you account for the land occupied by the ground radials: 540 degrees by 270 degrees (145,800 degrees^2) for the Langer configuration vs. 360 degrees square (129,600 Degrees^2) for the WALE configuration. Most likely, though, the shape of available plots is more important than the area. Moreover many WALE configurations space the columns somewhat further apart than 180 degrees and many arrays of both types space the rows closer than 90 degrees--sometimes as close as 60 degrees. Furthermore most of these arrays are not rectangular but are parallelograms. That is, the angle between the rows and columns is not 90 degrees.

The result is that if someone wanted to diplex the 1140 station into the WALE array, it wouldn't make sense to use the design that Langer proposed for 1140. A new 1140 design optimized for two columns and three rows would likely be the way to go.
 
You can't get there from here using 1/4 wave sticks. Providence is a few feet above sea level. Burrilville sites are over 400 feet above sea level and 15 miles out of Providence. The main lobe sails about one mile over and above Providence. Even 1/2 wave radiators would produce less than desired results from that elevation and location.

If (hypothetically) the elevations of those two locations were reversed; 990's current array would deliver the most ideal, killer signal possible from that site!

-
 
I've also heard there's a granite vein which interrupts the signal conductivity between Burrillville & Providence.
 
N1WVQ said:
I've also heard there's a granite vein which interrupts the signal conductivity between Burrillville & Providence.

I've heard the entire state is solid granite with a gravel veneer. I wonder why 990 (or WTIC for that matter) has so much difficulty crossing the exact same terrain that WBZ seems to sail through...

-
 
WALE, WBZ, and WTIC Signals (Was: Re: WDIS/1170)

N1WVQ commented: said:
I've also heard there's a granite vein which interrupts the signal conductivity (of WALE-990) between Burrillville & Providence.

Iyiyi responded: said:
I've heard the entire state (of Rhode Island) is solid granite with a gravel veneer.  I wonder why 990 (or WTIC for that matter) has so much difficulty crossing the exact same terrain that WBZ seems to sail through...

WBZ-1030's transmitter site is in Hull, Massachusetts near the ocean and is in a marshy area. AM transmitters in salt-water marshes usually put out a better signal, "watt for watt".

As for WALE, were it's transmitter to be moved to a salt water marsh near Providence, it would be so directional that it's daytime signal would be barely audible in large parts of the Providence market and it's nighttime signal likely couldn't be heard in much of Providence, and not at all north of the city, even with such a transmitter location.

Nevertheless, such "granite and granite veneer" terrain shouldn't be a major disadvantage for their signal, if Radio-Locator.com's maps are to be believed. I have read over the years comments that in Burrillville, the 990 transmitter and antenna system had not properly been maintained for years, and that their signal area isn't as large or signal as good as it in theory should be.

Here are the ]http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WALE&service=AM&status=L&hours=D[/url]

Nighttime: http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WALE&service=AM&status=L&hours=N
 
DanStrassberg said:
Does anyone know where Langer had proposed to locate the 1140 transmitter?

When the Langer 1140 CP was proposed for Greenville RI, it was reported at the time that a parcel of land had already been picked out in the town of Greenville itself, just west of US Route 44, a location somewhat south-west of 990's transmitter site from hell in Burrillville.
 
People who heard the 990 signal when it was brand spankin' new in the early 60's said the signal was piss poor. Lack of maintenance only worsened an already terrible signal. Ground conductivity definitely plays a role.

It should also be noted that while great hypothetical situations, NOTHING at the current 990 site can or should be salvaged. a 50+ year old ground system, 50+ year old towers, with a 50+ year old phasor in a 50+ year old building with a 30+ year old transmitter, and none of it has been maintained properly?

(I'd also like to note that the blame lies squarely on the owners, even engineering whiz Grady Moates couldn't turn things around with no budget and an already deteriorated site.)

I would say that instead of shoe-horning in WDIS anywhere, it may serve it's greatest benefit by turning it's license in. Less noise for the rest of the stations, ones that may be viable with their current facilities. Anybody here willing to mortgage everything they own to build an AM site in 2012?
 
reelyreal said:
Anybody here willing to mortgage everything they own to build an AM site in 2012?

Even if someone wanted to the NIMBYs and BANANAs would tie them up in court for years with their BS. Just ask Bob Vinikoor. He spent 10+ years and serious dollars but couldn't get an AM site built despite multiple court victories.
 
Sorry, I don't believe in turning in licenses. It's sad whenever a station goes off the air. The loss of WPEP still stings, 5 years later. Since WDIS & WPEP were at one time co-owned, I don't want to see WDIS go the way of its former brother station. 990 & 1170 can both be viable. Difficult? Oh yeah. Worth it? To the right person, yes.
 
N1WVQ said:
990 & 1170 can both be viable. Difficult? Oh yeah. Worth it? To the right person, yes.

990? Maybe. 1170? How could a 1kw daytimer that reaches just soccer moms and with a crumbling facility be viable?
 
http://lists.bostonradio.org/pipermail/boston-radio-interest/2012-November/029281.html
Dan's post about WDIS on b-r-i (UMass not interested). If anyone wants to buy it they'd have to go
through a lot. Maybe they could get some $ for selling the calls to Di$ney.

As I noted earlier the site is streaming some programming still. Not sure if still on the air; have gotten on occasion in
Salem/Bev. area but now I'd prob get the WUMB // from the Cape instead.
http://www.wdisam.com

The site has some community announcements; a blurb saying the show Ranting With Rizzo will no longer be heard on
AM 1170..another saying they carry King Philip football (actually, a link to the broadcast of it?) The prog listing page says they carry Salem's Bill Bennett show; the Dennis Miller show (9-10am? The show starts at 10 nationally so delayed from
yesterday) and various other talk shows. The facebook page also mentions that Ranting with Rizzo will no longer be heard and also says that you can download an app to hear their "business radio" on your smartphone.
So not being near Norfolk I can't tell if the broadcast signal is still on but they do continue to stream, for now.

Wiki. said they debuted as WJMQ in 78 and were WJCC from 82 to 93
 
I was one of the original crew that put the station (as WJMQ) on the air in 1978, right after the Great Blizzard (IIRC, our PD/1st phone picked up chronic bursitis from taking meter readings in hip-deep snow.)

Great crew, and the station kicked butt right out of the box. It was the most fun I ever had in decades in the biz.

Bunch of us tried to bring it back with local programming about 15 years ago when it was really suffering from neglect of the physcial plant, especially the antenna field and ground system, which gave us a listenable signal for about a thousand yards. It wasn't gonna happen. Too bad.

Regards,
TSB
 
If memory serves, the WJCC call was used under John Crohan's ownership; his brother Bob owned then-WICE 1290 in Providence.
 
NHRadio said:
N1WVQ said:
990 & 1170 can both be viable. Difficult? Oh yeah. Worth it? To the right person, yes.

990? Maybe. 1170? How could a 1kw daytimer that reaches just soccer moms and with a crumbling facility be viable?
Soccer moms are a good demo to go after!
 
The time has passed for these low-powered, neglected sticks out in the exurbs. It saddens me to say that, as someone who used to work in community radio.

I'm not sure if anyone could squeeze an LPFM in somewhere near Norfolk, but that'd probably get out better than 1170 (and would operate 24-7).
 
Re: WALE, WBZ, and WTIC Signals (Was: Re: WDIS/1170)

Joseph_Gallant said:
N1WVQ commented: said:
I've also heard there's a granite vein which interrupts the signal conductivity (of WALE-990) between Burrillville & Providence.
if Radio-Locator.com's maps are to be believed. I have read over the years comments that in Burrillville, the 990 transmitter and antenna system had not properly been maintained for years, and that their signal area isn't as large or signal as good as it in theory should be.

I have it on very reliable authority that, in this case, there are SERIOUS errors in the FCC's M-3 conductivity maps, on which radio-locator's so-called coverage maps are based. The alleged granite vein between Burrilville and Providence may really exist! If it does, t would explain the reported errors in the M-3 map. 990's signal strength problems in Providence proper have apparently existed from the moment the station first signed on. Neglect of the site could only have made the problems worse over the years.
 
Dan:

Since only the deepest of pockets (or is it weakest of minds...LOL)...would ever consider trying to revive the 990 transmitter site from hell in Burrillville...

Could a 990 diplex with Providence's 1290 possibly work, using 1290's existing 4 towers, and perhaps a daytime directional power of maybe 5KW, with maybe something in the neighborhood of 1KW nights?
 
TSBench said:
I was one of the original crew that put the station (as WJMQ) on the air in 1978, right after the Great Blizzard (IIRC, our PD/1st phone picked up chronic bursitis from taking meter readings in hip-deep snow.)

Great crew, and the station kicked butt right out of the box. It was the most fun I ever had in decades in the biz.

Bunch of us tried to bring it back with local programming about 15 years ago when it was really suffering from neglect of the physcial plant, especially the antenna field and ground system, which gave us a listenable signal for about a thousand yards. It wasn't gonna happen. Too bad.

Regards,
TSB
Has it been 15 years already? I guess it would be, 1997 sounds about right. Damn... seems like only yesterday. They did everything from oldies to classical and brought back Norfolk's own Howie Taft for afternoon drive. Donna Sprague and Nick (can't remember his last name) doing a liberal/conservative discussion show entitled "He Said, She Said." Then there was a book review show, a golf show, and some syndicated material which included the weekly "Sounds of Sinatra."

All of it done with very limited facilities, and no real production studio to speak of... but the station did have a mascot named Static the Cat!
 
Dighton Rockhead said:
Dan: Since only the deepest of pockets (or is it weakest of minds...LOL)...would ever consider trying to revive the 990 transmitter site from hell in Burrillville... Could a 990 diplex with Providence's 1290 possibly work, using 1290's existing 4 towers, and perhaps a daytime directional power of maybe 5KW, with maybe something in the neighborhood of 1KW nights?

I have no idea--but I can say that only three of 1290's towers are usable at once. That's true for both of 1290's patterns, BTW. Two of the towers (one of which is the "new" one) are too close together to be used at the same time. Apparently, at 10 kW, it was not possible to meet all of the required protections with the tower arrangement the station had used for years when it ran 5kW by day.
 
When I worked at 990 in its WEAN days, Grady told me the station would have a much better signal if it could be moved to the Centredale section of N. Providence, drop power to 10 kW, with a 4-tower array in the shape of a square.
 
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