Well its front page news (Daily News)

[LinoNYC]

From The online edition: NYDAILYNEWS.COM Saturday, July 07, 2007 06:20:29

http://www.nydailynews.com/index.html

Realisticly, I don't expect it to be "oldies" in the former sense. The demo's problem had been talked of for atleast 4 years before the flip to jack. In fact the dec 1998 debut of "Jammin' 105 was seen as a last-ditch attempt to modernize the genre. It was mediocre McDonald's style limited menu short order format but it was an attempt to try to focus somewhat younger (and blacker) while capitolizing on WCBS' image as an antiquated station.

Alot of people have been dumping on a certain consultant who posts here, the reality, as I see it, is that he is pointing out the fact that if Madison Ave and their clients won't buy ads in certain formats a commercial station has to try something else. It doesn't matter what a consultant thinks in this matter, the decisions made on data from surveys conducted buy business and ad agencies.

Personally, I dislike reading people's comments that essentially beg Mad Ave to sell them something in return for what, the same 300 songs (if you that many) over and over?

Let the commercial broadcast industry pander to advertiser's demands and chase an audience that isn't interested in them.

As I see it, the future of commercial broadcasting lies in news, ethnic, and (unfortunately) religion.

It's already the non-commercial sector that has shown growth over the last decade, and that is radio's bright future.

Lino

 

[LinoNYC]

Sorry about all the typos in that post.

Lino

 

[DToTheJ]

Direct link to their front page:
http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/07/07/alg_frontback_0707.jpg

 

[wgliradio]

It's also on the 1010 WINS site

http://www.1010wins.com/pages/655949.php?contentType=4&contentId=669915

As I said, PR coup. A no brainer

 

[davideduardo]

As I said, PR coup. A no brainer

On the other hand, announcing a generic format shift allows listeners to "decide" in advance what to expect... this is why most format shifts are not pre-announced.

The do-woppers will expect do-wop and be disappointed if there is none.
The early 60's pre-Brit fans will expect plenty of that. And they will be upset if there is nont.
The lovers of Motown and the British Invasion will expect loads of Beatles and Supremes. If they don't get it, they will be disappointed.

And so on...

A preannouncement allows everyone who is interested to get their expectations up. "Oh, wow. Finally more Beatles." Or "Oh, wow, finally more Elvis..."

And when the real product debuts, nearly nobody will have their expectations met adequately.

 

[neo11]

I agree with you on this one. I have a feeling a lot of people are in for a big letdown. I think it's easy for many people to romanticize about what their impression of CBS-FM was, while ignoring the reality that in in the last several years of its existence, CBS-FM played virtually no 50's or pre-1964 music outside of speciality shows, had limited its playlist and adopted cookie-cutter slogans such as "Motown, Soul and Great Rock n' Roll," had fired some of its legendary jocks unceremoniously long before the station was "jacked," had the long stop sets typical of Infinity (now CBS) stations, and so on. I recall that most of the posts about CBS-FM on the "other" board for at least the couple of years before the switch were complaining about why CBS-FM wasn't doing this or wasn't doing that.

Even if the "new" CBS-FM is presented as a classic hits station to be more palatable to the agencies, I sense the same letdown coming on the part of the listeners, who right now are just reminiscing the "romanticized" version of CBS-FM in their heads while ignoring the reality of what the station was in the end: a heritage station with a cookie-cutter playlist that could be found on any class A oldies station across the country, with some legendary (but aging) jocks left on the schedule.

 

[wgliradio]

And when the real product debuts, nearly nobody will have their expectations met adequately.

The hope is that the product will be what alot of what is happening on the HD-2. Just today, the HD-2 was doing the Top 20 this week in 1985, but the focus of the music on the HD2 is 64-85 with the heaviest emphasis in the 70's. I see no problem with that and would easily brand it Classic Hits, even though I would not use that exact term on the air.

It then comes down to the playlist, which is where you and I always disagree. There is more than enough material that is familiar to keep the station fresh without choking on the cookie cutter 350 list.

I think the doo-woppers realize their ship sailed. The daily dosage of 50's music has been gone much longer than the CBS-FM format... at least 5-6 years now. I wouldn't even offer a specialty show at this point.

I do feel for WMTR, which made a valient effort and actually did peek its head in the door in the 12+ numbers in NYC, something that rarely happens for a suburban AM in New York City (the only other one that does it on a regular basis is WHLI).

 

[adma]

It'd be a parallel disappointment to K-Rock--that is, more or less picking up from the worst of where they left off, on playing-out-the-string autopilot...

 

[Indielover]

Hopefully they will go with a classic hits approach different from the original. Soon after CBS returns the complaints from the cry babies will begin on the old republicans rest home radio board.

 

[Mike Sheridan]

As I said, PR coup. A no brainer

On the other hand, announcing a generic format shift allows listeners to "decide" in advance what to expect... this is why most format shifts are not pre-announced.

The do-woppers will expect do-wop and be disappointed if there is none.
The early 60's pre-Brit fans will expect plenty of that. And they will be upset if there is nont.
The lovers of Motown and the British Invasion will expect loads of Beatles and Supremes. If they don't get it, they will be disappointed.

And so on...

A preannouncement allows everyone who is interested to get their expectations up. "Oh, wow. Finally more Beatles." Or "Oh, wow, finally more Elvis..."

And when the real product debuts, nearly nobody will have their expectations met adequately.

Yikes, David and I actually agree....WOAH <= (get it David a Miami reference).....

Anyway, my only hope is that whatever they play it encompasses all of that but none of the "safe songs" that oldies stations and A/C stations have burned out for years now. Many adult stations don't even think of getting numbers on the weeknights and in certain dayparts on the weekend so this would be a great time to take requests or do something different.

Personally I think they waited too long but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[davideduardo]

It then comes down to the playlist, which is where you and I always disagree. There is more than enough material that is familiar to keep the station fresh without choking on the cookie cutter 350 list.

You disagree because you do not understand. The Star Spangled Banner is familiar, but we do not play it 15 times a week. Radio music selction is not about familiarity, it is about determining how much listeners want to hear each song on the radio today... not if the song was a hit, but whether it still is. Most familiar former hits are no longer hits. And unplayable.

I don't agree with limiting a playlist. i agree with playing the songs each listener base wants to hear. I work with staitons with 150 song lists (hip-hop) and stations with 1200 song lists (classic hits, including fill, of course....). It all depends on how many songs the listeners want to hear today. My personal opinion is irrelevant, as I am not a listener and not typical of the listers... just like all PDs.

 

[OldiesCat]

front page news

Anyway, my only hope is that whatever they play it encompasses all of that but none of the "safe songs" that oldies stations and A/C stations have burned out for years now. Many adult stations don't even think of getting numbers on the weeknights and in certain dayparts on the weekend so this would be a great time to take requests or do something different.

Personally I think they waited too long but I hope I'm wrong.

Music tests of the past couple of years are bearing out your point, Mike. For instance, for years classic rock's big Fleetwood Mac titles were the big hits, "Dreams", "Don't Stop", "Go Your Own Way" and so on- after 30 years of those songs being powers, now we're seeing the highest scores on "The Chain", "Gold Dust Woman", "Landslide" and a few others, while the previous songs are either secondaries or on hold because of burn. Same with Steve Miller- "Fly Like An Eagle" is very burned in many markets while stuff like "Swingtown" and "Jungle Love", which weren't played quite so much over the years, are now among the high testers.

Every market's a little different- the winning stations do proper research to find out their market's intricacies. They do not use charts or troll these radio boards for advice on what to play. They do their homework with radio listeners so they get it right.

 

[lalumia]

Scott Shannon's AMAZING "TRue Oldies" channel; THAT'S what people should be paying attention to, music wise...

 

[wgliradio]

You disagree because you do not understand. The Star Spangled Banner is familiar, but we do not play it 15 times a week. Radio music selction is not about familiarity, it is about determining how much listeners want to hear each song on the radio today... not if the song was a hit, but whether it still is. Most familiar former hits are no longer hits. And unplayable.

I don't agree with limiting a playlist. i agree with playing the songs each listener base wants to hear. I work with staitons with 150 song lists (hip-hop) and stations with 1200 song lists (classic hits, including fill, of course....). It all depends on how many songs the listeners want to hear today. My personal opinion is irrelevant, as I am not a listener and not typical of the listers... just like all PDs.

There are more songs that are credible today than you give credit for. That is where you don't understand.

Obviously there are duds and fools who go strictly by what charted 40 years ago. There are also fools who are too paranoid and limit playlists and end up with stale playlists, cookie cutter formats and flat ratings.

But for a song to test well, the cut has to be familiar to the subjects first and then likeable. There are more songs out there than you realize that fit into those two criteria.

And yes, your personal opinion is irrelevant, something we both can agree on.

 

[davideduardo]

There are more songs that are credible today than you give credit for. That is where you don't understand. .

We are not looking for credible songs. We are looking for playable songs.

But for a song to test well, the cut has to be familiar to the subjects first and then likeable..

Most of us know this, but thanks for the insight.

There are more songs out there than you realize that fit into those two criteria..

I've done more than 400 AMTs in the last 4 years, and in each there is a percentage of "what if" songs tested. In one format, we have tested over 4000 different songs, and seldom come up with a useful "what if" tune. In fact, the PD for that format only uses testing to determine rotation because on the first test, with no Whitburn or Billboard charts, she was "right" on the playability of 1174 out of 1200 songs tested... showing that there are PD with incredible instincts. Such talents, when given research to determine rotations, make for highly winning stations.

Further, with anywhere over 800 songs, reach and frequency shows that the average listener will not hear repeats for something like two to three weeks... so why add bad cuts when you can play good ones?

And yes, your personal opinion is irrelevant, something we both can agree on.

That applies to all PDs... when you can find out what the audience likes and dislikes so easily, thinking that you can decide for them is arrogant.

 

[OldiesCat]

Scott Shannon's AMAZING "TRue Oldies" channel; THAT'S what people should be paying attention to, music wise...

Right- on the less-than-a-handful top 100 market FM signals and the hundreds and hundreds of somewhat insignificant AMs around America.

P.S. Shannon actually does a nice job doing what he does- IF you want the same voice on your station 24/7, programmed to be as generic as possible for any city in the entire country.

 

[wgliradio]

We are not looking for credible songs. We are looking for playable songs.

If it is credible and people want to hear it, you should play it. But you should know this. Now you're just playing with words to make an argument.

Most of us know this, but thanks for the insight.

Then why did I have to bring it up, or was it more of your need to start another argument?

I've done more than 400 AMTs in the last 4 years, and in each there is a percentage of "what if" songs tested. In one format, we have tested over 4000 different songs, and seldom come up with a useful "what if" tune. In fact, the PD for that format only uses testing to determine rotation because on the first test, with no Whitburn or Billboard charts, she was "right" on the playability of 1174 out of 1200 songs tested... showing that there are PD with incredible instincts. Such talents, when given research to determine rotations, make for highly winning stations.

What was the format here? If it was oldies based, I would hope, given the number of playable songs in sample, that she would choose to rest some of the titles and be able to switch selections in and out to try and keep the station fresh. When you have the liberty of 1170 songs, you should have enough to be very creative. The hope is that if she is as intuitive with the music, that she is as intuitive with the rest of the package.

 

[wgliradio]

Scott Shannon's AMAZING "TRue Oldies" channel; THAT'S what people should be paying attention to, music wise...

I can't think of any mainstream satellite based format that is worse than True Oldies. Poorly executed in every way.

 

[davideduardo]

What was the format here? If it was oldies based, I would hope, given the number of playable songs in sample, that she would choose to rest some of the titles and be able to switch selections in and out to try and keep the station fresh. When you have the liberty of 1170 songs, you should have enough to be very creative. The hope is that if she is as intuitive with the music, that she is as intuitive with the rest of the package.

The format is classic hits, and over the 8 years we have been doing it, the base library has stabilized at more like 800-900 songs. Some turned to be quick burns, and others have gone away as we wanted the target demos to stay constant and the older songs have been progressively culled each year.

The creativity is putting the songs together for great flow. In a world where the PPM is on the horizon, we have to remember that the key in that measurement system is not to get people to listen longer, it is to avoid negatives that will make them go away. We already have this format in the top 5 in a PPM market, and PPM will come to 5 more of the markets we have the format in by the end of 2008.

 

[wgliradio]

The format is classic hits, and over the 8 years we have been doing it, the base library has stabilized at more like 800-900 songs. Some turned to be quick burns, and others have gone away as we wanted the target demos to stay constant and the older songs have been progressively culled each year.

The creativity is putting the songs together for great flow. In a world where the PPM is on the horizon, we have to remember that the key in that measurement system is not to get people to listen longer, it is to avoid negatives that will make them go away. We already have this format in the top 5 in a PPM market, and PPM will come to 5 more of the markets we have the format in by the end of 2008.

That gives her appox 300 songs "on the bench", which is a solid number to help keep the format fresh.

Creativity is great flow (we agree, holy sh*t) the right imaging and mood. Even some up and coming stations I feel could do a whole lot better with some changes in how they present the music, or even the elements they use.

PPM changing the way measurement happens, formats like AC and classic hits, which likely will see playtime in stores and offices, will benefit with well organized formats that are appealing and will keep the dial set at the workplace. I think it's one of the reasons why WOGL has done much better of late since PPM was introduced in Philadlephia.