Well, now, the lawyers have gotten involved....

[tomservo]

Which technology bit the dust, the actual World Service on shortwave, or some server somewhere?

I think they were using Skype (or equivalent) to make high quality calls to reporters in the field, and twice within about 15 minutes of reporting the calls dropped out, and left the host holding the bag.

This was on a local FM; Mississippi Public Broadcasting carried BBC audio overnights. I wish they'd add a full time HD-3 channel and carry it all the time like the WKNO station does in Memphis.

I gave up on BBC via shortwave after they discontinued service to North America some time ago. I just don't have the equipment to pull them in reliably when they target the Caribbean or South America. If I turn it on anymore, it's for (gasp) China Radio International or Radio Canada.

 

[tomservo]

High end users are really not that different from I guess regular low end users. driving along in your car while enjoying your favorite song is great. But when the song you love is dropping out for seconds it's really annoying to anyone. Listening to analog and HD trying to sync is annoying.

Yeah, dropping to silence IS annoying, I'll give you that. But I got earfuls of that in my years as a satrad subscriber so I guess it doesn't bother so much anymore.

But at some point every radio station becomes unlistenable due to static or co-channel interference; should I be returning my car to the dealer because I can't get stations from 300 miles away? People will get used to where HD-2 stations work and where they don't, and adjust their listening accordingly. I suspect few if any suburbanites will find any use for the HD-2 stations if they live far enough out of the city.

I just don't understand how these high end radios could be so troublesome when I seem to get pretty decent reception with my portable Insignia, which itself has a tendency to go all crazy and lose itself. But when it works, I get pretty reliable HD-2 reception from my nearest market (Memphis) well into the far suburbs, with just a tape-deck adapter cord draped over the rear view mirror. Surely an externa… oh wait, these cars all have shark fin antennas or hidden panels. NOT GOOD for FM or AM reception, PERIOD, much less HD.

I've ridden/driven a few higher end cars and some middle-priced ones with stub/shark fin antennas, and they all had crap reception on FM, even in urban environments. (I drove a Jaguar in Seattle last time I was there, up to Vancouver and back and don't think I got anything in stereo once on the radio.)

It isn't perfect, this stupid HD thing, but it isn't not nearly as bad as the naysayer, er, say. If anything, I'd say there was a defect of some sort in those high dollar radios (and for the record, not having a software-selectable lockout for HD is something I'd consider a defect in a $3,000 radio, just like not having RDS or AM stereo or an aux-in or iPod jack.)

And yes, by my estimation, all those high dollar radios are garbage because for $3,000 they ought to sound good on AM as well as FM and DVD-As. But none do, at least from my limited experience.

One last thing… I've been a part of a few automotive forums to help people through radio reception issues. The most common thing I've found? People complaining about poor AM/FM reception. And taking their radios to the dealer, who are by and large myrmidons, can do nothing beyond swapping the head unit.

So, how come car makers haven't taken out AM/FM completely then? ;D

The way I see it, people are blaming the radios for a defect that is at the radio station. The dealers (who no doubt spent copious amounts of advertising cash at these stations) should be on them to get their s*** together and keep the signals in sync so they can sell some more overpriced radio upgrades. A well-synced and properly processed signal should be barely obvious to the end user, and not enough of a hindrance to make people complain.

I've heard stations like that, like my local NPR station. In fringe HD areas, the audio has a slightly hollow tone as the two feeds blend, and the only real difference in NPR speech programming is the sudden "quietness" of the low noise floor on the digital feed.

(FWIW, using this defective technology I was able to get a clean uninterrupted signal of Memphis-area station WRVR HD-2 in Oxford, Mississippi, while sitting in a Wal-Mart parking lot. 56 miles and no dropouts. With a portable, in a car. When I tuned off and back on the frequency, I got a taste of the analog: almost unlistenable, it was so noisy. Then the HD popped in and it got real nice. )

 

[Gatekeeper007]

HD radio is very buggy in it's design, but then wasn't AM radio when it first came out? or FM in it's early days? I am not defending HD radio as I do not believe it is the correct future for radio but just saying hay it has happened many times before in radio. Also it sounds like on the extreme other end you are dealing with spoiled people who if you stuck a pin in them, plenty of hot air would blow out in quit a few places including the pin hole. With that said I do believe there is plenty to complain about on HD radio in it's current design, just look at digital TV and how well that works if a tree or a building gets in the way not mention bad weather, but digital takes up less space on the radio spectrum than analog does which free's up more spectrum space for newer types of technology in the future and also allows the FCC to auction off these new frequencies for big money. So certain types of digital problems in different services maybe over looked in order to get these analog services moved to digital and free up spectrum space. HD digital radio along with IBOC not wanting to loose their a** on a bad system probly leads to this problem as well and now you have lawyers jumping into a problem (they would never do it for the money of course) that have no idea how big of a problem they are trying to fight.

 

[local oscillator]

Let's not forget that there are several distinct problems with HD, two major ones being interference and reception. HD stations, in varying degrees, infringe on adjacent-channel stations' ability to reach their audiences. Interference is the equivalent of throwing garbage in your neighbors' yards. The reception issue is more like piling up garbage in your own yard. Although I personally feel that the former is far worse than the latter, they are both wrong and negatively impact our industry. Our listeners have come to expect a certain level of performance from us. Analog radio with rare exceptions, i.e. severe storms on AM or bad inversions on FM, delivers on that expectation. HD Radio falls short all the way around; it promises far more than it delivers -- from a Jag sound system or an Insignia. Zach's reception of WRVR HD-2 is an isolated case most likely the result of the specific interference ratios between analog and digital signals at that location. Or maybe it's just that a stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

[radiogooroo]

I'd personally love to see the trial lawyers lose big on this one. Well, actually, I'd like to see them lose big on EVERY one. The people suing because coffee is hot has gotten out of hand, and a law degree shouldn't be a license to steal.

I doubt very much that this will amount to anything. I suspect the radios in these cars perform just fine, and would be capable of receiving HD solidly if the signals were strong enough. The automakers have absolutely no control over the transmitting apparatus of HD stations or other factors influencing whether HD can be received solidly or not any more than they can regular AM or FM.

I'm a regular talk radio listener. My AM radio breaks every time I drive under or beside power lines or go into a parking garage. On my 12 mile commute each day, the powerhouse 50 kW AM here is much more listenable on its sister station's HD3 than on AM. The AM daytimer here sounds significantly better on its sister station's HD3 after dark than on AM. One of the rimshot FMs can be received much more reliably via it's sister's HD2 than on analog FM in a huge chunk of the metro.

With all of these flaws inherent to traditional broadcast technology, maybe the real solution here is for automakers to not include radios at all, or at least eliminate analog AM tuners! I could prove to anyone that my favorite 50 kW AM is every bit as hard to receive as any HD FM in my market.

 

[tomservo]

BTW, did anyone else notice one of the other complaints besides poor reception was not enough HD stations to choose from? I thought that was funny.

At this point I would also like to reiterate that I believe AM HD to be an unmitigated disaster with serious real world interference and performance issues, but I am still okay with FM HD for the most part. There have been few if any real complaints about FM HD sidebands causing interference inside any stations protected contour. That's an important phrase, "protected contour". Anything outside of that is gravy for the station, but there has never been a guarantee or expectation of signal quality outside that mythical circle.

I mentioned Oxford, Mississippi earlier, and that 56 mile HD snag sitting in a parking lot. That people in Oxford listen to several of the big class C FMs from Memphis in analog is really irrelevant because it's outside the advertising scope and outside the protected 60 dBu contour. They can, but there's no guarantee that they SHOULD be able to. And if someone locally were to fire up the HD generator and block out those signals, well too bad. (But to be fair, there are no first adjacents serving Oxford to block anything from Memphis to begin with, so the point is even more beyond discussion than normal.)

 

[RadeoEngineer]

Zach I'm curious if that RVR HD2 hit you got in Oxford was while you were in motion or stationary. I have the same radio and I've driven Memphis with it and found it won't hold any HD in a mobile environment.

 

[tomservo]

Zach I'm curious if that RVR HD2 hit you got in Oxford was while you were in motion or stationary. I have the same radio and I've driven Memphis with it and found it won't hold any HD in a mobile environment.

It was stationary, in the Wal-Mart parking lot. That is up on a hill which probably explains why it and KQK are occasional catches on that side of town.

It was in and out while moving and gone completely by the time I got up by the campus on Jackson Avenue.

 

[TheBigA]

We're not talking about a $200 radio that can be returned to Fry's. We're talking about a $3000 sound system in an $80K motor vehicle.

A lot of these same cars have satellite receivers in them as standard, not optional, equipment. Those satellite receivers are susceptible to a lot of the same outages that characterize all satellite broacasting. More annoying, though, is the monthly bill. Based on the figures I see, more than half of the satellite receivers installed in cars are no longer under subscription. So they sit there as an unusble device. Nothing more annoying than having a piece of equipment that you can't use. I rented a car last week that had Sirius installed, but not working. And I certainly wasn't going to pay the extra $1 or 2 a day for the chance to hear commercial free VT. Certainly not the experience I want in a car.

 

[RadeoEngineer]

We're not talking about a $200 radio that can be returned to Fry's. We're talking about a $3000 sound system in an $80K motor vehicle.

A lot of these same cars have satellite receivers in them as standard, not optional, equipment. Those satellite receivers are susceptible to a lot of the same outages that characterize all satellite broacasting. More annoying, though, is the monthly bill. Based on the figures I see, more than half of the satellite receivers installed in cars are no longer under subscription. So they sit there as an unusble device. Nothing more annoying than having a piece of equipment that you can't use. I rented a car last week that had Sirius installed, but not working. And I certainly wasn't going to pay the extra $1 or 2 a day for the chance to hear commercial free VT. Certainly not the experience I want in a car.

I wouldn't call it a piece of equipment you can't use. For a buck or two you could have used it to your hearts content. As for it fading, people know satellite TV fades and have learned that satellite radio does the same for the same reasons. They don't expect their local boogyoogyoogy station to fade because that's in the neighborhood and they're used to listening to it through whatever except for the occasional overpass with AM. As to satellite in general, I think they lost the game long ago by going cookie cutter earth bound formatically, although I did enjoy hearing the correct version of Cee Lo Green's "F@ck You" on the way home from a show the other night courtesy of Mel and his minions.

 

[TheBigA]

For a buck or two you could have used it to your hearts content.

People who buy or rent expensive cars don't expect to be nickled and dimed to death. Just give me one price, so I can expense it. Same with the GPS. Get my lawyer on the phone.

As to satellite in general, I think they lost the game long ago by going cookie cutter earth bound formatically,

Thy lost the game a long time ago because people don't want to pay for radio. Subscriptions stalled out long before the merger. The people who don't mind paying have given their daddy's credit card number to Pandora. That way they can take their radio with them and aren't handcuffed to the car.

 

[Play Freebird]

I would say a lot of misleading claims for HD Radio are still being put before consumers. For review, let's look at this page:

http://www.hdradio.com/what_is_hd_digital_radio.php

"The Same Unmatched Fidelity as Your Digital Music". Not if "Your" music is encoded with FLAC or a decent MP3 bitrate.

"FM stations now with CD-quality sound". If they mean the digital signal, how can a 48 kbps lossy codec (typical for any station with HD-2 or -3) compare against a well-mastered CD?

"AM stations now with FM-quality sound". That's a major insult to Major Armstrong.

"All digital, all the time". No.

"No hiss, distortion or station drop off". You're kidding, right?

"More info on your dial, such as traffic data and stock info". Does anyone here know of any HD station sending stock info?

I understand that Clear Channel now offers a traffic data service which requires a paid subscription. But this contradicts the claims "Free of charge like radio should be" and "No subscription costs, no plans and no monthly bills"

However, I did find a statement which passes the truth test: "Prices are plummeting as more and more people are discovering what HD Radio is all about". That's because more and more (Highly Disappointed) people are trying to unload their radios here:

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=HD+Radio

 

[tomservo]

I thought Clear Channel's traffic endeavour was through RDS and not HD.

 

[Play Freebird]

Reportedly, Clear Channel is offering (or about to offer) an expanded service via HD:

http://www.gpslodge.com/archives/032076.php

My point is that the hdradio.com website misleads consumers into believing this info service is "free of charge" with "no subscription costs".

Of course, RDS also has the ability to send traffic data via TMC -- and in Europe, most of the stations that offer it don't require any additional subscription:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_Message_Channel

 

[TheBigA]

Reportedly, Clear Channel is offering (or about to offer) an expanded service via HD:

If it's an expanded service, then it's different from the one the web site refers to. Right?

 

[Savage]

RE: gooroo's wishes for trial lawyers to lose on every case, and how "a law license shouldn't be a license to steal" and citing the Stella Liebeck "coffee burn" case against McDonalds...

First of all, let's check your attitudes re: plaintiff's lawyers if, may God forbid, you or a family member are ever injured by a drunk driver or a dangerous or defective product.

Second - regarding the Liebeck case. Stella Liebeck was burned by coffee which had been served at a McDonalds drive-through in Albuquerque back in 1992. The coffee was heated to 185 to 190 degrees; no food or drink hotter than 140 degrees is fit for human consumption because it will burn the throat and mouth and destroy mucous tissues. Liebeck was in a car driven by her grandson and had put the styrofoam cup between her knees to add sugar; as she removed the lid coffee splashed onto her pelvic area, buttocks, legs and thighs. Her sweatpants absorbed and held the nearly-boiling coffee against her skin. She suffered third-degree burns over 6% of her body and had to undergo painful treatments during 8 days of hospitalization. Muscle, connective tissue and skin in her groin and genitals were all destroyed.

McDonalds had received over 700 formal complaints about excessively-hot coffee in the years immediately preceding the Liebeck case, some of which had resulted in settlements. A McDonalds expert admitted on the stand that coffee at 185 degrees is capable of destroying human skin and tissue in three to six seconds. The company admitted it served the coffee at dangerously high temperatures so it would be at drinking temperature by time customers got it home or to an office, and that cold coffee was "perceived by consumers as inferior."

Liebeck had offered to settle the case for her medical expenses of $20,000, but McDonalds gave her the finger. Subsequently she was awarded $200,000 in compensatory and $2.7 million in punitive damages. Both awards were reduced by the Court; comp went to $160,000 (Liebeck was considered 20% at fault) and the punitive was knocked down to $480K. Even the higher original amounts equated to two days of McDonalds coffee sales nationally.

Just thought the real facts about the McDonalds coffee case would be illuminating while you go off about plaintiff's lawyers. Wonder what you'd think about "stealing lawyers" if Stella Liebeck was your mom?

As far as your comments about HD and 50kw AMs - you must have the lousiest AM car radio ever made. Was that you I saw with the old coathanger hanging out of your fender??

 

[TheBigA]

McDonalds had received over 700 formal complaints about excessively-hot coffee in the years immediately preceding the Liebeck case, some of which had resulted in settlements.

Several things about this:

1) People were actually injured. Not the case with HD Radio. Unless one wasn't screwed into the dashboard and it hit someone. I really think that's the problem here: proving harm.

2) McDonalds sells a lot more coffee than ibiquity sells HD radios. Even if you believe their figure of a million radios sold, that includes their hugely successful (ha!) table models, and the new portables.

3) McDonalds still makes coffee, and to my taste, it's still too hot. It may not be 185 degrees, but it's hotter than my home coffee. All they added was a warning label. Is that really what you want with regards to HD Radio? I don't think so.

 

[TSL2]

Nobody has ever been hurt while using HD radio. Maybe users have dealt with wasted time going back to the dealership looking for a fix for their $60,000 car. Maybe users feel as if they're stuck with a lemon. Maybe they don't even know about HD radio, but notice something is wrong with their radio?

So to answer your point, nobody was hurt, except of course for the dealer and manufacture who are dealing with unhappy customers. I guess most people just want to turn the power button on and scan stations like they've always done before.

Then there's being sued for false advertising.

Jillian Michaels is being sued for falsely advertising that her "Jillian Michaels Maximum Strength Calorie Control" product will provide "automatic" weight loss if taken before meals.
http://www.casewatch.org/civil/michaels/complaint.shtml

Nobody was hurt from taking a little pill? It just doesn't work as claimed.

 

[TheBigA]

So to answer your point, nobody was hurt, except of course for the dealer and manufacture who are dealing with unhappy customers. I guess most people just want to turn the power button on and scan stations like they've always done before.

Are you making this up? Or do you have facts? In a court of law, you need facts.

Then there's being sued for false advertising.

That's another reason why I say this is a frivolous lawsuit...because they're just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if anything sticks.

 

[calstymes]

TheBigA did thusly say:

...they're just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if anything sticks.

You mean the morass of spaghetti that the AM band is in right now and the unhappy radio stations who have been seriously and adversely affected in their own markets by the implementation of IBOC?

Yup, it probably won't stick eh? The HDradio gods have nothing to fear. The nerve of anyone to think they may have probable cause for a class action law suit!