WEVD 1330 New York

[DanStrassberg]

The most charming and fascinating is the 12-minute segment about all those local commercials (again, mostly on WEVD), which supported these stations. As the host says "it is a window to a lost world"
http://yiddishradioproject.org/exhibits/commercials/

Wonderful! WEVD came in so poorly in the northwest Bronx that I never had the pleasure of hearing this stuff live, but no matter, voices from my childhood--even though I did not hear them back then.

Also, somewhere in the linked material is a mention of WEVD announcer Dick Suger. Despite the lousy signal, I used to listen to his Latin music show, which aired on WEVD Mondays from 5:00PM to 6:00PM. Tuesday thru Friday evenings, WEVD would sign off at 5:00PM to make way for WBBR (no relation to today's WBBR), but WHAZ in Troy had Monday evenings after 6:00PM, so WEVD would stay on an extra hour. Suger ended every show by wishing his listeners (in Spanish), "health and wealth and time to enjoy them." Just about the only Spanish I ever learned.

 

[Cosmopolite]

Dick "Ricardo" Sugar died in 2004 at 85, but can still be heard. His DRS Advertising Agency created "In the Doctor's Office" with Richard Ash, MD on WOR Sundays 5:00-7:00PM. The program uses Dick's intro and spots.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

O/T DX question :

What would it sound like, say at Columbus Circle, if WEVD and WPOW were both on the air for, say, a half an hour with full programming?

Would each have gotten the other in their headsets off air?

Were they ever known to do this? Even briefly?

 

[HHH]

O/T DX question :

What would it sound like, say at Columbus Circle, if WEVD and WPOW were both on the air for, say, a half an hour with full programming?

Would each have gotten the other in their headsets off air?

Were they ever known to do this? Even briefly?

I don't know if both WEVD and WPOW transmitters (when they had separate transmitters) were ever on by mistake at the same time. I know that, in the 60s when I was spending part of the summer in NYC, I got curious about how they handed off. So I heard WEVD sign off, drop carrier, and literally two seconds later, WPOW's carrier came on with "This is WPOW, New York" and then programming would start. And the same happened the other way around.

I suspect that they monitored each other. Neither station wasted no time in signing right on the moment the other dropped carrier!

 

[DanStrassberg]

What would it sound like, say at Columbus Circle, if WEVD and WPOW were both on the air for, say, a half an hour with full programming?Would each have gotten the other in their headsets off air? Were they ever known to do this? Even briefly?

I never heard of WEVD and WBBR/WPOW being on the air at the same time. Never heard of WBNX and WAWZ being on at the same time. Nor did I ever hear of WOV/WADO and WHBI being on the air at the same time. I suppose it might have happened, though.

What DID happen, sometime in the '20s, I believe, and has been well reported, is WMCA and (then) New York City-owned WNYC, which then shared time (no idea on which frequency), being on the air at the same time. I believe that New York mayor Jimmy Walker was giving a speech and WNYC was broadcasting it. Like many politicians, Walker was long-winded and his speech ran over past the time when WNYC was supposed to hand off to WMCA. An aide informed Walker that he had to wrap up but he refused--quite publicly--over the air. When WMCA heard this, they switched on their carrier AND modulation and the two stations proceeded to duke it out all over Gotham. The FCC subsequently intervened and made it clear to WNYC that, regardless of what the mayor ordered, WNYC was to go off the air when its license said it would go off the air. If my account of this incident is inaccurate, I'm sure other posters will correct my account of these events. I wasn't born until a decade or so after the incident took place.

The fortunes and facilities of WMCA and WNYC (AM) have been curiously intertwined for decades. Not only did the two stations share a frequency back in the '20s (I think there was at least one other station involved in the time-share--WPCH, atop the Park Central Hotel near Columbus Circle) but, since sometime in the 1980s, WNYC has diplexed into WMCA's three-tower array in South Kearney.

 

[HHH]

What would it sound like, say at Columbus Circle, if WEVD and WPOW were both on the air for, say, a half an hour with full programming?Would each have gotten the other in their headsets off air? Were they ever known to do this? Even briefly?

I never heard of WEVD and WBBR/WPOW being on the air at the same time. Never heard of WBNX and WAWZ being on at the same time. Nor did I ever hear of WOV/WADO and WHBI being on the air at the same time. I suppose it might have happened, though.

What DID happen, sometime in the '20s, I believe, and has been well reported, is WMCA and (then) New York City-owned WNYC, which then shared time (no idea on which frequency), being on the air at the same time. I believe that New York mayor Jimmy Walker was giving a speech and WNYC was broadcasting it. Like many politicians, Walker was long-winded and his speech ran over past the time when WNYC was supposed to hand off to WMCA. An aide informed Walker that he had to wrap up but he refused--quite publicly--over the air. When WMCA heard this, they switched on their carrier AND modulation and the two stations proceeded to duke it out all over Gotham. The FCC subsequently intervened and made it clear to WNYC that, regardless of what the mayor ordered, WNYC was to go off the air when its license said it would go off the air. If my account of this incident is inaccurate, I'm sure other posters will correct my account of these events. I wasn't born until a decade or so after the incident took place.

The fortunes and facilities of WMCA and WNYC (AM) have been curiously intertwined for decades. Not only did the two stations share a frequency back in the '20s (I think there was at least one other station involved in the time-share--WPCH, atop the Park Central Hotel near Columbus Circle) but, since sometime in the 1980s, WNYC has diplexed into WMCA's three-tower array in South Kearney.

Speaking of WPCH, they broadcasted from the top of the Park Central Hotel with two towers suspending a series of horizontal wires (as was done back then). As of just a few years ago, one of the towers was still standing even though the station has been off the air for almost 80 years! I think the tower may still be there. Scott Fybush might know.

 

[Cosmopolite]

WMCA and WNYC shared 570 until 1933. The remaining PCH self-supporter was dismantled in 1995.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I have found numerous mistakes over the years in the Broadcasting Yearbook, the World Radio and Television Handbook, and nearly any other list I have seen. I was just looking at a page from the Broadcasting Yearbook from David's site today and found several mistakes just on one page, and it had to do with DA-N, DA-1, and DA-2, as well as some other information. As near as I can figure out, if the FCC calls it DA-2 with the same array parameters (which would seem to be DA-1), it means that at some point that different data for the augmentations got separated into different day and night records, making it appear that there were two patterns instead of one. This might have happened in subsequent proofs. Stations may have accepted this without correction if it helped maintain the pattern and/or upgrade one or the other pattern. That is if there was a augmentation that was licensed that exceeded the correct information, it made the pattern easier to maintain, and easier to reduce the augmentation for a power increase application.

The patterns I saw in an NRC publication showed one null toward the 1330s in Erie, PA, Flint, MI, Sheboygan, WI, and Minneapolis, MN. It seems that it was on the order of 100 mV/m at 1 MILE in the horizontal. It was a typical three tower in line with four nulls total, a major lobe, and three minor lobes. It seems that the major lobe went SE.

 

[DanStrassberg]

The patterns I saw in an NRC publication showed one null toward the 1330s in Erie, PA, Flint, MI, Sheboygan, WI, and Minneapolis, MN. It seems that it was on the order of 100 mV/m at 1 MILE in the horizontal. It was a typical three tower in line with four nulls total, a major lobe, and three minor lobes. It seems that the major lobe went SE.

Are you sure that you weren't looking at the current (WWRV) day/night pattern, which comes from Hackensack (the WNYM 970 site?) I'm talking about the pattern that WWRV was using before the storms hit and forced it and WNYM off the air. What you've described sounds like the WWRV patterns. I doubt whether WEVD had such a nice-looking pattern when it transmitted from Queens. Manhattan would have been in back of the pattern, which sounds unlikely. Also, remember that 1330 in Erie didn't come along until quite a while after WEVD did.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I can't put my hands on the NRC Handbook. I could be wrong about the maximum direction, but I am sure about the inverse field null at about 280-285 degrees being about 100 mV/m @ ONE MILE. This corresponds to a skywave of 125 uV/m at 500 miles, which was the permissible interference for a Class III-A. That is about what the current pattern is also.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

WFNN and WTRX came on in 1947 and were considered Class III-A. WHBL came on in 1928 but was a Class IV on a Regional Channel with 1000/250 nondirectional before becoming a Class III-A with 5000/1000 DA-2. WLOL came on in 1940 and was a Class III-A. They were all Class III-A, even though some were 1000 watts nighttime and there were other signals that made the RSS greater than 2.5 mV/m. If you read the definitions of Class II-A, III-A, and III-B, they are a little contradictory in their definitions, between the defined maximum permissible interference and the calculated NIFs. Somewhere along the line, nearly all III-As ended up with NIFs more than 2.5 mV/m, and nearly all III-Bs ended up with NIFs more than 4 mV/m. There was a common mistaken belief that all 5000 watt nighttime stations were III-A, and all 1000 and 500 watts nighttime were III-B, but that was not the case. Many 5000 watt night regional stations were just Class III. Many started to have NIFs so high that they had to use 5000 watts night (and now even more) to reach 80% of the COL population with even a PREDICTED NIF contour.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Before someone corrects me, WHBL shows as III-B, but has a low NIF, and a night pattern which is close to the equivalent of 250 watts nondirectional in the null and minor lobe directions.

 

[DanStrassberg]

WWRV's current (Hackensack 5 kW) night pattern comes from three in-line towers along an azimuth of 326 degrees to 146 degrees. Efficiency is quite high; the pattern RMS of 369 mV/m/kW @ 1 km is high enough to qualify as a Class A AM. The pattern maximum (1687.5 mV/m @ 1km) is at 146 degrees. There is a local maximum directly behind the pattern (326 degrees) of 488.64 mV/m @ 1 km. Minima are at 232 degrees (140.35 mV/m @ 1 km), 285 degrees, 7 degrees, and 60 degrees. The field strengths at the last three of these are all given as 140.1 mV/m. There are two other local maxima; one is between the 232- and 285-degree minima and one is between the 7- and 60-degree minima. There is a single augmentation at 146 degrees. (I believe that the one seeming asymmetry is due to rounding). The 10 kW day pattern is identical except it uses two times the night power.

Considering that the array was designed for another station (970) and not used by 1330 until many years later, WWRV was really fortunate to find a location so well suited to its requirements. The high efficiency is attributable to use of an array and ground system that were designed for a station that operates at 73% of WWRV's frequency. The field strength at the four minima is equivalent to ~250W ND (even less if you take the high efficiency into account). The favorable soil conductivity in New Jersey results in a far better signal in the five boroughs than WWRV and its predecessors ever achieved from either of their earlier sites (Maspeth or Staten Island).

 

[w9wi]

Do note that WHBL has only been on its current 1300/1330 channel since 1936. (not that that really makes much difference) Before that date it shared time with WROK Rockford on 1410/1440.

Are you sure it was a Class IV? I see listings showing it running 1000/250 as early as 1940 - long before powers of more than 250 watts were allowed for Class IV stations. (but when powers of less than 500 watts were permissible for Class III stations)

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

For a while, they permitted Class IVs on Class III channels. I think they let them operate as Class IIIs for a while, before redefining them as Class IV. The idea was that they were nondirectional, could be as low as 100 watts at night, and weren't protected at night. I believe that WMAM 570 250/100 ND Marinette, WI and WPFB 910 1000/100 ND Middletown, OH were two others. Also WJLK 1310 1000/250 Asbury Park, NJ. At some point they became Class III, and are now classified as Class D if they are under 250 watts efficiency. It is interesting that some of these were allowed 100 watts or more under the 50% RSS exclusion, but would not be permitted 100 watts under the 25% RSS exclusion. It seems that the rules reclassified these stations in the 1970s. WHBL became Class III-B when it went to 5000/1000 DA-2, and actually has a respectively low NIF. I think the others stayed Class IV until later.

Going through David Gleason's archives would probably answer the question about what years they were considered Class IV.

 

[w9wi]

Yep, I'm aware there were Class IVs on regional channels -- WMAM holds hands-down the record for best coverage for a Class IV .

But what I'm saying, is that WHBL's day power greatly exceeded Class IV (or whatever they called it back then) maximum as early as the mid-1930s. Recall, that at about the same time WISN-1120 was also running 1000/250 ND on a regional channel. (and I'm sure they weren't the only two)

Yep, I'd have to do some reading on David's site to find a copy of the classification regulations as they existed back then but it sure looks to me as if WHBL has been a III for as long as it's been on 1300/1330 & probably longer.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Just looked at the 1960 Broadcasting Yearbook. Listing by frequency shows WHBL as 1000/250 ND and as Class III-B. I'll have to check other years. I think that if they had not upgraded to 5000/1000 DA-2, it would have been downgraded and subject to night interference. Still have to see exactly when that happened. WHBL was once owned by C. L. Carrell, who had a lot of portable stations around Chicago back in the 1920s. Broadcasting Yearbook also says 1926 for the sign on date.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

1964 Yearbook shows WHBL with a CP for 5000 day, 1000 night, DA-2.

 

[w9wi]

Just looked at the 1960 Broadcasting Yearbook. Listing by frequency shows WHBL as 1000/250 ND and as Class III-B. I'll have to check other years. I think that if they had not upgraded to 5000/1000 DA-2, it would have been downgraded and subject to night interference. Still have to see exactly when that happened. WHBL was once owned by C. L. Carrell, who had a lot of portable stations around Chicago back in the 1920s. Broadcasting Yearbook also says 1926 for the sign on date.

The 1000/250 ND goes back to at least shortly after they stopped sharing with WROK.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The listing by frequency shows WJLK 1310 Asbury Park, NJ as 250 watts Class IV. Later it was 1000/250. It looks like there was no where else to go from 1310. Moving to 1340 would have created a lot of overlap with 1330 New York, particularly from Staten Island. Anyone know more about the history?