• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

WFLF 540 In SE Michigan

S

Schroedingers Cat

I was getting WFLF 540 at 6:30 PM last nights with spots for Winn Dixie and the Florida Gators. This is the first time I have heard the station in any form. At one time, it was just a daytimer. The pattern does not seem to favor the North, so I wonder if it was on STA. CBEF was on before they went to fulltime, until recently. Even when WGTO...WFLF went to fulltime, they would have to protect the Canadian border and the CBK 0.5 mV/m 50% skywave contour in Canada, based on the old skywave rules under treaty. There would thus be less than 0.025 mV/m 10% skywave on much of the Canadian border under normal operating conditions.
 
WFLF's sunset for the month should be 5:45 by 6:30 they should have been well into night power/pattern. I doubt there's any STA involved. Usually CC/iHeart stations sign off on time, but there can be exceptions. I've not recieved them in Tennessee but I've gotten WOKV before sunset (as well as a couple of other Jacksonville area AMs)
 
gr8oldies said:
WFLF's sunset for the month should be 5:45 by 6:30 they should have been well into night power/pattern. I doubt there's any STA involved. Usually CC/iHeart stations sign off on time, but there can be exceptions. I've not recieved them in Tennessee but I've gotten WOKV before sunset (as well as a couple of other Jacksonville area AMs)
Click to expand...

WFLF, along with WDBO - are sunset visitors to Houston before they change to nighttime operation. I suspect WFLF daytime - but it is tough to get the noise low enough and get a good enough null on Dallas to prove it.
 
As WGTO, they used to be quite the sunset regular on Long Island when they were a daytimer. Perhaps some auroral cx were present at those times ; it's impossible to determine because we were kids, really, and wouldn't hear about Advanced DX Theory for a while.

I wouldn't doubt that WGTO had quite the audience back then, in the 60's, in both the Tampa and the Orlando markets. In Clearwater, for example, they put in a pretty nice signal even on a second-tier transistor along with its more hometown-oriented Top 40. I don't know if they've rearranged or moved their site since then.

Maybe Gar or someone else knows ?
 
I can answer your question. I was Chief Engineer for WGTO in the 70's/80's.
The station moved from their original transmitter site in the late 80's.
Their original 50kW daytime pattern was huge. The new daytime pattern is much tighter.
 
Thanks for the information, Frank. How far did they move? It's six towers day and six towers night, and seven towers total, according to the application for pattern augmentation and it looks like it was just two towers before they moved. Is that correct?

I was looking at the IDF values toward my receiving location and it is about the equivalent of 5 kW day and 1 kW night in this direction (about 335 degrees is where the minimum is). 6:30 PM is well past sunset here, 5:30 PM is the January sunset for most stations around here.
 
I saw the pictures before that just had two towers. What was the spacing and phase of the two tower array? I always remember the coverage maps that would be seen in some of the trade publications but it always looked about the same. I was always surprised that it mainly just covered Central Florida with 50000 watts on 540. Back before CBEF came on, I would usually hear very little on 540, then I heard CBK. Shortly after, CBEF came on and though it wasn't overwhelmingly strong where I used to live, I heard little else. I always wished I had tried a tuned loop or preamp when WYLO Jackson was the only groundwave that might be receivable on 540. Since CBEF signed off, I think Canonsburg, PA is what I was usually hearing in the critical hours.
 
I'm now in St. Pete Beach, where WFLF seems a little weaker to me than in past visits. Maybe it's just me. The signal is still pretty decent, all things considered. But if it is a tad weaker, then my thought is perhaps the pattern is out of whack and a little more juice is leaking out to the north.
 
I heard WFLF about a week ago, on the car radio whilst in Toledo, about two hours after sunset. The channel has been very clear at night around here since CBEF moved to 1550. This evening, I was listening to WDAK (Mississippi) on the channel, the usual occupant of the channel at night up here.

When directional stations run 50kW at night (okay, WFLF is actually 46kW), it seems their signals bounce around. WINS, CIWW, CHUM and CKOC should be inaudible at night here, but, alas, they're there, usually with sharp and heavy fading.

My guess is that you got WFLF and it was with their correct nighttime pattern.
 
Last edited:
Being this far away from WFLF 540, the angle of departure is close to zero. Even at 500 miles, you have a significant angle of departure above zero. Some of the patterns mentioned are closer, and there is often a large difference in the pattern at the angle of departure than the pattern in the horizontal. Often, instead of decreasing above the horizon, the IDF increases, even though the vertical radiation characteristic decreases. This is particularly true of broadside type arrays. A three or four tower in line with close to quarter wave spacing does not have this effect. With Auroral conditions, you may have a cloud of ionization that reflects the signal in odd directions. I have no explanation as to why WINS has been so consistently strong though, being so close to CFRB and supposedly protecting it, if the pattern is within specifications. New cell towers make it almost impossible to keep up with new reradiating structures, and the cell companies also seem to not care to being outright hostile to having to detune their towers.
 
Last edited:
FWIW, CKOC had been reliable at my location northwest of Chicago for several years up until about a year or a year and a half ago. Then it became pretty much missing. At least up until last month, when I noticed that it had become fairly common again. Atmospherics? Pattern out of whack? I have no idea. I haven't noticed much, if any, difference on CFRB (which is usually very weak, but can still break through the noise at least on a semi-regular basis).
 
Always good to hear reports of a Florida station being heard up north.

Here in Tampa, their signal is pretty good in the day but very weak most of the time at night.


And cyberdad, I hope you get to go to Honeymoon Island this time.
 
gar fla said:
And cyberdad, I hope you get to go to Honeymoon Island this time.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Gar. It's on my bucket list as a "must". I've got family here the first part of the coming week, so I'm going to try to get over there at some point after then on one of the days when the wife will be with her girlfriends.
 
I heard WFLF 540 again tonight about 6:30 PM. It was running Rush Week In Review, and had announcements as WFLA 102.5. It was weak but steady with some interference. Tried it after seeing that the Chicago Class A stations were nearly absent except groundwave, an indication of Auroral type conditions. There was no Radio Reloj on 570 though, which surprised me. Just WKBN 570, also groundwave.
 
WFLF has a huge daytime signal. It is audible all the way to Miami and beyond and up to St. Augustine. There is a 550 n that area. Interesting that they hardly promote their AM, but promote 102.5 which is a translator. I was driving from Tampa to Orlando last month and WHPT on 102.5 was dominant,even 20 miles from Orlando. WOKV at 690 in Jacksonville is another monster AM daytime signal with coverage from Coastal North Carolina to Melbourne, but they also promote their FM at 104.5,which is a market grade signal,unlike 102.5 in Orlando.
 
I don't really think promoting a 250 watt translator as if it is the main facility makes sense, particularly when the AM is a 50000 watt low dial position station. People are likely to not be able to get the FM in areas where the AM comes in well. One more reason there needs to be an expanded FM band to accommodate more full power stations. A lot of 50000 watt stations also have Class A FM simulcasts now. Some have simulcast FMs that are 30 or more miles away from the AM station. Unless coverage areas for simulcast FMs nearly match the AM, they really ought to rethink just promoting the FM. I didn't realize that 102.5 was just a translator until I looked it up. I thought it was a full power FM facility.
 
benale said:
WFLF has a huge daytime signal. It is audible all the way to Miami and beyond and up to St. Augustine. There is a 550 n that area. Interesting that they hardly promote their AM, but promote 102.5 which is a translator. I was driving from Tampa to Orlando last month and WHPT on 102.5 was dominant,even 20 miles from Orlando. WOKV at 690 in Jacksonville is another monster AM daytime signal with coverage from Coastal North Carolina to Melbourne, but they also promote their FM at 104.5,which is a market grade signal,unlike 102.5 in Orlando.
Click to expand...

It is indeed a monster! I think I am right about daytime WFLF Houston reception. Of course it is winter, but what I was hearing in the background matched the internet stream except there was a delay. But I didn't get an ID, and that program could have been nationally syndicated. It took an 8 foot loop antenna to pull it in, and I am in the process of making a 10 foot loop. I will try again some time to see if I can get an ID.
 
The old WGTO daytime pattern provided far better coverage than the present WFLF daytime pattern.
Every time an AM station (which has a directional array) changes transmitter/tower sites, the FCC requires the station to provide greater protection in the nulls.
WGTO/WFLF has moved transmitter/tower sites multiple times since the original (four tower) Lake Alfred location.
This is a link to the original WGTO 50kW daytime coverage map:

http://www.dizzyrambler.com/features/WGTO/Broadcast Map.pdf

Frank
 
benale said:
WFLF has a huge daytime signal. It is audible all the way to Miami and beyond and up to St. Augustine. There is a 550 n that area. Interesting that they hardly promote their AM, but promote 102.5 which is a translator.
Click to expand...

Today, AM's with translators depend on the translator for most of their "salable" audience. The ability of AM to capture anything but listeners over the age of 50 or even 60 is quite limited as the younger generations grew up on FM; they find AM to be noisy, poor-sounding and unpleasant.

So having an AM is essential to operating the translator, but is otherwise of little practical value.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom