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WFME -94.7FM Transmitter

I really think 94.7 should be moved but only to give 94.5 PST some breathing room....
IMO that is way too close...New Brunswick is the big divide from 94.7 vs 94.5 ;)

Way back when 100.3 moved to Empire it gave some room to the 100.3 in Philly
& 100.1 WJRZ was able to move a little closer to Toms River (in Waretown, with their studio still in Manahawkin)... :)
 
ai4i said:
w9wi said:
Basically, what happened in 1964 was a MAJOR change to the FM rules. Today's power and distance regulations were established. Stations that were already authorized for facilities that didn't comply with the new rules were allowed to operate under the *old* rules.
Thanks, I never knew that.
Were any stations running big power on a class "A" channel?

Nope, but the Class A channels were remapped. (not entirely sure when, as best I can tell that distinction was in place well before 1964) Initially in the 1940s all the Class A channels had been contiguous. (as were the Class B channels) So there *were* high-powered stations on, say, 100.1, but 100.1 wasn't a Class A channel at the time.

Does a receiver have to have a 10.7 MHz IF to pass part 15 and be sold in this country?

No,it's perfectly legal to use a different IF & I've heard of other frequencies in use.

I think what happened is the FCC sat down (informally) with the setmakers & told them "if you guys can settle on a standard IF frequency, we'll make rules to protect it from interference".

When and why did the UN relinquish 89.1?

I have no idea. My suspicion is they didn't see any point in broadcasting only to NYC.
 
.[/quote]
Thanks, I never knew that.
Were any stations running big power on a class "A" channel?
Does a receiver have to have a 10.7 MHz IF to pass part 15 and be sold in this country?
When and why did the UN relinquish 89.1?
[/quote]
I'm unaware of any stations that remained on the Class A frequencies (92.1, 92.7, 93.5, etc.) with power higher than 3kw after the allocation table went into effect in the early 60's. I'm aware of some larger market stations that operated on these frequencies but it would appear that they were repatriated to class B/C frequencies with the table of allocations. Of course, the rules were changed in the late 80's and class B and C (and their sub-classes) were allowed on formerly class A frequencies and vice-versa. Around that same time, most class A stations were also granted a power increase to 6kw. Class B (and C) stations that operated higher than the new statutory limits were allowed to remain at their previously authorized power. One thing to keep in mind was the fact that the minority of FM stations operated above 1kw on Class A frequencies or above 20kw on class B frequencies in the 50's and early 60's.

As for 89.1, this was a reserved allotment in the TOS for the UN. This was per the FCC and the UN never had any real territorial claim on it. When it became apparent in the late 60's that the UN had no aspirations to operate a radio station, the FCC cancelled the allotment. Both NYU and Fairleigh Dickinson U. applied for the frequency and agreed to a time-share arrangement in 1971.
 
TimeIsTight said:
From WFME's transmitter site you can clearly see across Staten Island and Brooklyn, and up into the Bronx and Westchester. Sure, there are some people out on Long Island that don't get as good a signal from West Orange as they do from the ESB, but they represent only a small fraction of the total market. Most radio stations ignore large chucks of the potential market with their formats. A programmer who decides on a Spanish language format, automatically ignores the vast majority of potential listeners who don't understand Spanish.

But this theory ignores the fact that if you can't be heard, they can't listen. Spanish language stations have to cover all Hispanics who speak Spanish to succeed; there are significant Hispanic populations outside of the close-in areas. A rock station will want to get every single rock listener they can, and not covering all of them puts them at a disadvantage.

Agencies buy based on audience delivery. They don't buy stations that rank low in their target audience group because they can usually duplicate the reach with bigger, more efficient stations that have full coverage.

Not covering well (which can be defined as 65 dbu based on studies of millions of listening locations based on ZIP codes) means you will not do as well as other stations with better coverage, and if you get audience, a bigger signal will jump your format.

WFME loses 3 million 12+ persons in Nassau and Suffolk, and ads just a few hundred thousand in Morris and Somerset with its more westerly coverage. It also misses about half the Westchester population that the ESB stations have, in exchange for a bit more in Middlesex county.
 
WFME loses 3 million 12+ persons in Nassau and Suffolk, and ads just a few hundred thousand in Morris and Somerset with its more westerly coverage. It also misses about half the Westchester population that the ESB stations have, in exchange for a bit more in Middlesex county.

Granted that WFME has fewer potential listeners in Nassau and Suffolk than an Empire State Building signal, but the difference is far less than 3-million, which is about the total population of Long Island. Driving east on Long Island, the WFME signal drops off about fifteen miles before all the ESB signals also drop off. The difference in potential listeners is the population in that approximately 15 mile wide stripe that runs across the island. That is a populated area, but saying that one section represents even a million potential listeners, out of a total market population of almost 16-million, is being generous.

The part of Westchester that WFME doesn't reach is relatively sparsely populated, and the loss there probably about offsets any similarly defined WFME pickups in New Jersey. Actually, with the exception of co-channel problems for WCBS-FM, and WHTZ, all the ESB signals and WFME, cover all of Morris, Somerset, and Middlesex counties and well into areas beyond.

The point is that depending on the format Cumulus picks, and how successful it is in the areas where the WFME signal is equal to or better than the ESB signals, it could make up for the loss of potential audience on Long Island. The WFME signal still has the potential to compete equally with the ESB signals in the rest of the NY radio market, and the WFME signal is stronger in most of North Jersey, Staten Island and parts of Brooklyn. It's a line-of-sight 24-kw versus a line-of-sight 6-kw. The terrain from West Orange east is relatively flat and close to sea level, but the ESB signals come from 500 feet higher above MSL and so those signals cover a bigger circle that is 15-miles east and more central to the market.

No doubt, WFME has a signal disadvantage, but not one that dooms it in the total market. It has the advantage of a stronger signal in some higher income suburban areas, and like its sister-station to be, WPLJ, it could do very well billing wise if it has a format that attracts enough of those higher income suburban jersey soccer moms. Sure it would be better if the transmitter could be on the ESB, but there is more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one way to carve a meaningful niche in a big radio market even if your signal automatically excludes you from a geographical fraction of it.
 
TimeIsTight said:
Granted that WFME has fewer potential listeners in Nassau and Suffolk than an Empire State Building signal, but the difference is far less than 3-million, which is about the total population of Long Island.

Three million is the combined 12+ population of Nassau and Suffolk Counties. WFME does not get a 65 dbu that even covers Queens completely, let alone cover that huge amount of population to the east.

As I said, for in home and at work listening, a 65 dbu is where 95% of the listen occurs, with 80% being inside the 70 dbu. WFME will not get any of that listening there... and in NYC (using diary data that broke it out) 75% of listening is at home and at work.

Driving east on Long Island, the WFME signal drops off about fifteen miles before all the ESB signals also drop off. The difference in potential listeners is the population in that approximately 15 mile wide stripe that runs across the island. That is a populated area, but saying that one section represents even a million potential listeners, out of a total market population of almost 16-million, is being generous.

Actually, if you take the population the 65 dbu misses in Queens, it's over 3 million for the listening in home and at work.

The part of Westchester that WFME doesn't reach is relatively sparsely populated, and the loss there probably about offsets any similarly defined WFME pickups in New Jersey.

The only part of Westchester WFME puts a 65 dbu in are Yonkers and Mount Vernon... the 65 ends right north of them.

The pickups in Jersey are on the west sides of the various counties that are in the New York metro, which are definitely less populated than the City-facing sides.

Actually, with the exception of co-channel problems for WCBS-FM, and WHTZ, all the ESB signals and WFME, cover all of Morris, Somerset, and Middlesex counties and well into areas beyond.

The ESB stations barely touch Somerset with a 65 dbu, so they are pretty much restricted in potential the farther you get into that county. Morris gets a bit more useful in-home and at-work signal, but falls short of being fully covered by a 65 dbu by any of those ESB stations.

The point is that depending on the format Cumulus picks, and how successful it is in the areas where the WFME signal is equal to or better than the ESB signals, it could make up for the loss of potential audience on Long Island.

Unless there is a format that Long Islanders don't like that folks in the outlying counties of the MSA in New Jersey do like, that concept just does not work. While the WFME signal has an advantage in the farthest parts of a couple of counties there, it in no way makes up for the huge loss in Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and even Fairfield counties.


No doubt, WFME has a signal disadvantage, but not one that dooms it in the total market. It has the advantage of a stronger signal in some higher income suburban areas, and like its sister-station to be, WPLJ, it could do very well billing wise if it has a format that attracts enough of those higher income suburban jersey soccer moms.

WPLJ does not bill relatively well due to income... it simply bills commensurate with its adult ratings. It's 12th in billings in the market, just behind WSKQ. While it does get a little benefit from the slightly higher rank in higher income households than its overall rank, most campaigns don't use income level as the primary selection criteria (although it can be a tie breaker). Besides, close to 25% of the WPLJ audience is in Nassau and Suffolk... again emphasizing the loss from not covering Long Island.

Sure it would be better if the transmitter could be on the ESB, but there is more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one way to carve a meaningful niche in a big radio market even if your signal automatically excludes you from a geographical fraction of it.

They likely can find a format that justifies the acquisition price, and they can make money. But they just can't compete with the major billers of the market.
 
SonoSational18 said:
As for 89.1, this was a reserved allotment in the TOS for the UN. This was per the FCC and the UN never had any real territorial claim on it. When it became apparent in the late 60's that the UN had no aspirations to operate a radio station, the FCC cancelled the allotment. Both NYU and Fairleigh Dickinson U. applied for the frequency and agreed to a time-share arrangement in 1971.
One last unrelated question: Why, after all these years, does anyone suppose the two schools have never been able to agree to share a common site, perhaps higher and better located one than either currently uses?
 
ai4i said:
SonoSational18 said:
As for 89.1, this was a reserved allotment in the TOS for the UN. This was per the FCC and the UN never had any real territorial claim on it. When it became apparent in the late 60's that the UN had no aspirations to operate a radio station, the FCC cancelled the allotment. Both NYU and Fairleigh Dickinson U. applied for the frequency and agreed to a time-share arrangement in 1971.
One last unrelated question: Why, after all these years, does anyone suppose the two schools have never been able to agree to share a common site, perhaps higher and better located one than either currently uses?

No compelling reason, I suppose. FDU gets a better signal over its New Jersey campus from the Alpine site, and while NYU doesn't get a great signal over lower Manhattan from the current WNYU site in the Bronx, it's still a better signal there than it would be from Alpine. The allocation hole has been nibbled away at the edges over the years in such a way that there's no real room left for any sort of a bigger signal; I don't believe you can fit 89.1 on any of the major Manhattan tower sites without making it ridiculously directional, and the cost of a DA and of Manhattan tower rent would be prohibitive.
 
The ESB stations barely touch Somerset with a 65 dbu, so they are pretty much restricted in potential the farther you get into that county. Morris gets a bit more useful in-home and at-work signal, but falls short of being fully covered by a 65 dbu by any of those ESB stations.

David, I suspect that if we were both using the same data we would have been in complete agreement on all of this all along. I lived in Somerset County for almost forty years, and know all the radio signals and local listening patterns there very well. For most of those years I had my clock radio set to an ESB signal and didn't give signal strength a second thought. I also know multitudes of people who live far beyond your predicted 65 dbu line, who have routinely listened to ESB signals in the house and in the car all of their lives without giving it a second thought. The ESB signals are routinely listenable in parts of Ocean, Mercer, Hunterdon, Warren and Sussex Counties all outside the New York Market.

The ESB signals also cover Morris County. I have a brother who has lived within a few miles of the western edge of Morris since the 1970s and the ESB, Philly, Princeton, and Lehigh Valley FM stations have always been routinely listenable at his house. The only ESB station that can be a bit iffy is low power WQXR. I had dinner in a restaurant a mile from the outer edge of Morris County last week, and it had WLTW from the ESB playing on its sound system.

As to WFME, I never paid that much attention to its programming, but I also lived seven years at the very top of that same mountain ridge where its transmitter is located, and know what you can see and hear from up there very well. Just scanning the radio dial you will routinely receive stations in Westchester, the Hudson Valley, Long Island and Connecticut. It was also routine to receive low powered college FM stations from Long Island, and if their signals make it there the much stronger WFME signal is routinely going to wherever they are. I also worked at WVNJ-FM when it transmitted from the same tower WFME now uses, and IIRC the power was about the same too. I remember the phone calls from listeners on Long Island, and in Westchester. I remember a woman friend from north of the Tappan Zee in Westchester telling me how surprised she was to accidentally hear me on the radio up there shortly after I started at WVNJ. She was no radio person, she was just tuning across the dial and listened when she heard a familiar voice.

So, given all this anecdotal evidence, and more, I don't see the new WFME's commercial success being make or break dependent on moving the transmitter to the ESB. It's likely that the folks at Cumulus did their homework,and some real world testing, on the WFME signal. It's interesting that the deal includes an upgrade in station value if the transmitter is moved within five years.

And it's also interesting that in addition to the $40-million in cash, Family Radio is also getting that Mt. Kisco FM. I don't know what that station is worth, but that means WFME was worth significantly more than $40-million right where it is. So, in the end WFME was worth a significant fraction of an ESB signal, and it is being purchased by one of the three major players in American radio.

In the end, the WFME signal still has the potential to be a major player, but not likely a top dog, in the New York radio market. What will matter far more than signal is format selection, and execution. And that format's popularity and market share in desired demos in the areas where the WFME signal is strong.
 
TimeIsTight said:
David, I suspect that if we were both using the same data we would have been in complete agreement on all of this all along.

I'm using data generated by a study of listening by location from the diary survey of the New York MSA over about 7 years starting in 1998; the 95% of at home and at work listening within the 65 dbu figure was demonstrated in markets ranging in size from New York to San Antonio.

The only ESB station that can be a bit iffy is low power WQXR.

And the 105.9 signal, in several different Spanish language formats, did not get any significant in-home or at-work listening beyond an arc drawn through Paterson, West Orange and Elizabeth, despite there being significant listening to the two full B's in Spanish well beyond that arc. Again, it demonstrates the statistically proven fact that 95% of listening occurs inside the 65 dbu contour.

I also worked at WVNJ-FM when it transmitted from the same tower WFME now uses, and IIRC the power was about the same too. I remember the phone calls from listeners on Long Island, and in Westchester.

That was so long ago that we are talking about several generations back in FM receivers; they were generally much better than those today and were the data available, it is likely that the 95% contour might even be below 60 dbu. But today, real listening at home and at work, which is 75% of the New York MSA total listening, occurs almost entirely in the 65 dbu contour.

One thing is "hearing" a station. Another is listening. DXers and radio geeks take pleasure in hearing stations. Listeners that advertisers seek do not.

And it's also interesting that in addition to the $40-million in cash, Family Radio is also getting that Mt. Kisco FM. I don't know what that station is worth, but that means WFME was worth significantly more than $40-million right where it is.

That Mt Kisco FM bills under $10 k a month. It's likely worth under $2 million, and that is generous.

They got a sort-of-new-york FM for a sort-of price... a bit more than a good AM like WOR (and we know what AMs are going to be worth in the future) and a lot less than any cash flowing FM might fetch. They got half a station for half price. If I were buying a car, I'd much prefer it have all four wheels.
 
[That was so long ago that we are talking about several generations back in FM receivers; they were generally much better than those today and were the data available, it is likely that the 95% contour might even be below 60 dbu. But today, real listening at home and at work, which is 75% of the New York MSA total listening, occurs almost entirely in the 65 dbu contour. /quote]

I would have to say that you're correct on all accounts except for this fact, David. FM receivers are generally MUCH better now than ever. The difference back then was less interference due to a less crowded dial and far fewer computers and devices with switching power supplies spewing hash up and down the spectrum.

If you compare the test data on a typical FM receiver from 30 years ago and now, the differences are quite striking. Most of the current crop of car radios are based on a single chip design, resulting in much better S/N ratio, adjacent channel rejection, capture ratio and stereo separation. Couple that with 99% of tuners/receivers/table radios being digital tuning and you have what is most likely the best crop of receivers out there.
 
DavidEduardo said:
They likely can find a format that justifies the acquisition price, and they can make money. But they just can't compete with the major billers of the market.

Which was the better deal WOR or 94.7?
 
Another example of an allocation being deleted - American Family Radio purchased 91.7 WJTA in Kosciusko, MS and shut it down to facilitate a new station they were signing on at 91.7 in Decatur, MS. They purchased the station, shut it down, and now like allocation is gone.
 
msugrad2000 said:
Another example of an allocation being deleted - American Family Radio purchased 91.7 WJTA in Kosciusko, MS and shut it down to facilitate a new station they were signing on at 91.7 in Decatur, MS. They purchased the station, shut it down, and now like allocation is gone.
Apples and oranges, I think a non-commercial allocation can be deleted (like when WPOZ in Orlando bought an 88.3 to shut it down and expand) unlike a commercial one :)
 
Yes, the non-commercial band, 91.9 and below, does not operate the same as the commercial band. Allocations are added wherever a station can be squeezed in and are deleted if the station goes off the air. On the commercial band, once an allocated is added, it is almost impossible to get it deleted.
 
An article in today's InsideRadio points out the fact that the sale agreement between Family Radio and Cumulus stipulates that the latter will pay an additional 8.5-10 million dollars for WFME if it is moved into NYC limits, within the next five years. This is said to be an indication that Cumulus may make a strong effort to shift the WFME transmitter and antenna to somewhere in the city (not necessarily ESB).
Perhaps this expectation will influence the format Cumulus chooses for WFME? For example, if they will not be quite as strong in NJ, maybe this makes country music a less likely choice?

InsideRadio Article: http://insideradio.com/Article.asp?id=2558127&spid=32061#.UIaMH2_A8rU
 
BarryATL said:
Yes, the non-commercial band, 91.9 and below, does not operate the same as the commercial band. Allocations are added wherever a station can be squeezed in and are deleted if the station goes off the air. On the commercial band, once an allocated is added, it is almost impossible to get it deleted.

Indeed, really there are no allocations in the non-commercial band. Like AM, you can build a station on any frequency where you can show it will operate without interfering with anything.

For commercial FM, you have to use a channel in a "Table of Allocations".
 
That's why noncomms can and do wind up with these crazy directional patterns.

In some ways it's a good thing, more stations can fit in. In other ways, stations wind up with these patterns that make the signal useless in most places except in the "main lobe" of the antenna.

I'm working on one of those right now...
 
TimeIsTight said:
I had dinner in a restaurant a mile from the outer edge of Morris County last week, and it had WLTW from the ESB playing on its sound system.

Actually nowadays, that doesn't mean anything. I was at a pizza place in Bangor, Maine back in September that had WLTW playing on its sound system. It was either streamed online, or it was Sirius XM, which includes WLTW and a few other Clear Channel owned terrestrial stations at the moment...
 
Wayne McMannors said:
TimeIsTight said:
I had dinner in a restaurant a mile from the outer edge of Morris County last week, and it had WLTW from the ESB playing on its sound system.

Actually nowadays, that doesn't mean anything.

If someone in a money demo with a PPM unit walks then it is a big deal.
 
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