WGBH-FM/WZBC

[DanStrassberg]

If you go back five years or more, you will find that WGBH-FM had applied to move to the WBZ-TV tower in Needham, where WGBH-TV and WGBX transmit from. The application to move 89.7 to Needham from Great Blue Hill in Milton was finally dismissed a couple of years ago after 'GBH had made repeated attempts to modify its proposal to demonstrate that third-adjacent interference to WZBC would not be a problem. Apparently 'GBH just couldn't satisfy the FCC on that score. Surely, in all of the engineering and re-engineering and negotiation between BC and GBH that must have gone on, someone must have poposed that WZBC might move either to Great Blue Hill or to one of the downtown Boston FM sites (One Financial Center, Pru) so that GBH-FM could move west. Since I never saw any such proposal see the light of day in the form of an application to move WZBC, I have to assume that no such proposal a) could pass muster technically or b) was acceptable to BC--for one or more of several possible reasons.

The first possible technical issue that comes to mind is the I/F problem: 90.3+10.7 = 101.0, which is only 300 kHz from WZLX, which, I believe is on the Pru. I'm not sure whether 300 kHz is too close or not. Second issue is, if WZBC were to move east, could it improve its facilities in any meaningful way? Third issue is, I suspect that, from a more easterly location, using any power I can imagine it being granted, WZBC couldn't deliver the requisite signal to Newton, so it would have to change its CoL. Where to? Milton? If not, where? Fourth issue--which prople on this board can only speculate about--is the tower rent. Presumably, this would not be a problem if 'ZBC were to use 'GBH's Milton site, but at either the Pru or One Financial, I imagine GBH would have had to agree to pay ZBC's rent--assuming that there were space for another station on either building.

I'd sure like to hear the take on these issues from some of the FM technical gurus on this board.

 

[mgpt6]

For ZBC it would be a matter of money to move downtown. The antenna is now on the BC Upper campus with 220ft HAAT. ZBC still has to protect WRIU 90.3 and WICN 90.5. The ERP would go down with the increased HAAT. And would that cover all of the city of Newton? Hopefully, Aaron Read , former ZBC CE or Ed Perry, who did the frequency search in the 70s will comment here.
Also, Dan you might want to check out coments at the end of the "WFPB-AM is down" Thread
mgpt6

 

[aaronread]

Dan, I don't want to get into too many details since this was work for a client, but the short version is that despite WZBC's full cooperation with WGBH's plan, the FCC rejected the logic and denied the WGBH's move to Needham. Several permutations were tried, but the FCC rejected them all.

IIRC, it wasn't just interference to WZBC that was the problem, I think some of it stemmed from WGBH wanting to maintain their "Super B" ERP levels, scaled appropriately to the height of the Needham tower. I don't blame them for not wanting to give that up; the lower ERP of a "regular B" would mean WGBH would have all the same problems getting into downtown that other Needham stations do. With those issues, what's the point? The only reason to move off Blue Hill is improved downtown coverage; for suburban coverage Blue Hill is still a great location.

There never was any formal discussion of what WGBH would "give" WZBC for allowing their move; it didn't get that far. But WZBC wasn't all that interested in moving. Because of the restrictions of WSMA 90.5 and WICN 90.5, WZBC can't move to downtown or Needham (respectively) without an extremely restrictive DA pattern and unacceptably low ERP. (I/F and WRIU aren't really concerns, FWIW...it's more WSMA and WICN). The only viable sites are places to the north like 1150AM's site in Lexington, or the old TV site in Woburn, or even WFNX's old site in Malden. Those places give good suburban coverage to the north, but they're not all that great for downtown penetration and they stink at providing the excellent on-campus coverage WZBC enjoys north. Remember, for a college station that's supposed to be a student activity, it's important that the students be able to hear it in their dorm rooms, otherwise you've got a real political issue.

Plus, now that the NCE filing window from last October has come and gone, I suspect WZBC cannot move at all anymore. I don't really know for sure (I haven't looked) but there was a pretty large hole for WZBC to expand northward on 90.3...I wouldn't be surprised if someone's tried (or trying) to fill that hole.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

I don't really know for sure (I haven't looked) but there was a pretty large hole for WZBC to expand northward on 90.3...I wouldn't be surprised if someone's tried (or trying) to fill that hole.

That's gone. There's now a translator for NHPR (W212AF-FM) on 90.3 in Nashua NH, which despite being only 15 watts, I've heard it interfering with WZBC as far south as Lowell MA, and along the Route 2 corridor around Fitchburg, and surrounding towns.

 

[jlehmann]

I don't really know for sure (I haven't looked) but there was a pretty large hole for WZBC to expand northward on 90.3...I wouldn't be surprised if someone's tried (or trying) to fill that hole.

That's gone. There's now a translator for NHPR (W212AF-FM) on 90.3 in Nashua NH, which despite being only 15 watts, I've heard it interfering with WZBC as far south as Lowell MA, and along the Route 2 corridor around Fitchburg, and surrounding towns.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that translator exists anymore. NHPR now has 88.3 WEVS at the same location that 90.3 was located. If it does still exist, that it's a huge waste of a signal.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

That's gone. There's now a translator for NHPR (W212AF-FM) on 90.3 in Nashua NH, which despite being only 15 watts, I've heard it interfering with WZBC as far south as Lowell MA, and along the Route 2 corridor around Fitchburg, and surrounding towns.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that translator exists anymore. NHPR now has 88.3 WEVS at the same location that 90.3 was located. If it does still exist, that it's a huge waste of a signal.

I haven't been up that way for a while to hear it, but I just looked at the NHPR website, and it has both frequencies (88.3 and 90.3) currently listed for Nashua. Check the frequency/station list at the bottom of the left column. They're also both mentioned on their reception guide page. If that's current, it does seem like a waste, for a simulcast in the same town.

 

[w9wi]

I don't really know for sure (I haven't looked) but there was a pretty large hole for WZBC to expand northward on 90.3...I wouldn't be surprised if someone's tried (or trying) to fill that hole.

That's gone. There's now a translator for NHPR (W212AF-FM) on 90.3 in Nashua NH, which despite being only 15 watts, I've heard it interfering with WZBC as far south as Lowell MA, and along the Route 2 corridor around Fitchburg, and surrounding towns.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that translator exists anymore. NHPR now has 88.3 WEVS at the same location that 90.3 was located. If it does still exist, that it's a huge waste of a signal.

In any case the translator is secondary service and could be bumped if it were in the way of a WZBC upgrade.

 

[Laurence Glavin]

I've often wondered if the problems that some route 128 FM's experience downtown are caused by the antennas atop the Pru; if everybody moved to route 128, then this phenomenon could be eliminated. (I guess WBCN would then be short-spaced to the 104.1 in Prospect, CT... they may not like it, but a DA would fix it.) The population of greater Boston has moved westward, and up to a third of the output of the Pru dwellers serves the gill-breathers in Boston Hahbah.

 

[DanStrassberg]

I've often wondered if the problems that some route 128 FM's experience downtown are caused by the antennas atop the Pru; if everybody moved to route 128, then this phenomenon could be eliminated. (I guess WBCN would then be short-spaced to the 104.1 in Prospect, CT... they may not like it, but a DA would fix it.) The population of greater Boston has moved westward, and up to a third of the output of the Pru dwellers serves the gill-breathers in Boston Hahbah.

You're either too young to remember, didn't live in the area when the Pru was built, or didn't develop an interest in radio until later. After the first three Newton/Needham tall towers went up (the candelabra was last of them to join the party--that is, it was the fourth tall tower in the Newton/Needham area), most of the Boston-area commercial Class B FMs were on the tall towers along 128. The last to move were (I think) WEEI-FM (now WODS), which, IIRC, stayed in Medford until late in the game, WXHR (96.9), which didn't move from Woburn until the cadelabra went up, WCOP-FM (WZLX) , which stayed in Lexington until the new (all glass) Hancock building opened (and then very soon had to move (to the Pru, I believe) because of a fire that scared the building owners), and WKOX-FM (105.7) which didn't move (from Framingham) until the candlabra became available. The original WROR (98.5) moved from Medford to the Channel 7 tower when that went up. I believe that the very first of the FMs to move to the tall towers was WCRB-FM (102.5). It moved from Waltham almost as soon as the Channel 4 tower was completed, and Channel 4 was the first of those tall towers to be completed. Channel 7 was second. What is now FM-128 had to wait for the old WHDH-TV (channel 5) to be granted and built. WHDH-FM (94.5) must have remained atop the OLD (short) Hancock building (the one with the flashing light on top) until the WHDH-TV tower opened.

So what you're proposing is more-or-less the situation that existed 40 or more years ago. I guess the majority of the stations like downtown better. The rents may actually be lower and as long as some stations remain on 128 (and some have to, for example, WKLB 102.5 can't move east because of an I/F problem with WUMB--102.5-10.7 = 91.8 ), the plethora of stations downtown causes receiver front ends to saturate, which puts the stations on 128 at a disadvantage in delivering over-the-air signals to the local ad-agency time buyers, most of whom work downtown.

There are other special situations as well: WBUR has to be west of the city because it must directionalize to the east to protect several other stations or else it must run much lower height-adjusted ERP, as it did from that building (is the the Law School?) on the BU campus. WMKK is on the North Shore because it is short-spaced to a co-channel station in (I think) Waterbury CT. I suppose WMKK might move to 128 if a) Entercom wanted to go to the expense and b) WMKK directionalized to the east. But were WMKK to move to 128, it would probably also have to change its CoL from Lawrence to someplace closer to Newton.

 

[pqgeorge]

You're either too young to remember, didn't live in the area when the Pru was built, or didn't develop an interest in radio until later. After the first three Newton/Needham tall towers went up (the candelabra was last of them to join the party--that is, it was the fourth tall tower in the Newton/Needham area), most of the Boston-area commercial Class B FMs were on the tall towers along 128. The last to move were (I think) WEEI-FM (now WODS), which, IIRC, stayed in Medford until late in the game, WXHR (96.9), which didn't move from Woburn until the cadelabra went up, WCOP-FM (WZLX) , which stayed in Lexington until the new (all glass) Hancock building opened (and then very soon had to move (to the Pru, I believe) because of a fire that scared the building owners), and WKOX-FM (105.7) which didn't move (from Framingham) until the candlabra became available. The original WROR (98.5) moved from Medford to the Channel 7 tower when that went up. I believe that the very first of the FMs to move to the tall towers was WCRB-FM (102.5). It moved from Waltham almost as soon as the Channel 4 tower was completed, and Channel 4 was the first of those tall towers to be completed. Channel 7 was second. What is now FM-128 had to wait for the old WHDH-TV (channel 5) to be granted and built. WHDH-FM (94.5) must have remained atop the OLD (short) Hancock building (the one with the flashing light on top) until the WHDH-TV tower opened.

WEEI-FM/103.3 was pretty late in the game when they left Medford to go to Needham in September, 1973. WXHR-FM (by that time, WJIB-FM)/96.9 left Zion Mountain (Woburn) at the same time that WKBG/56 moved to the Candelabra in October, 1968. The Candelabra project (the Stainless tower) was a cooperative effort built in 1968 with WKBG, WSBK, WJZB-TV14 and WREP/25 (which did not operate until its' CP as WXNE-TV was was bought by CBN in 1973 and got its' original airdate on 10/10/77). WJZB-TV never got the go-ahead to move to Needham from Paxton and left the air in 1969. The Channel 4 tower was completed (I believe) in 1956. Channel 5's tower (WHDH-TV) came later in 1957 and Channel 7's came along in 1964, with WRKO-FM (later WROR and WBMX) coming along for the ride as well. WHDH-FM stayed at the Old Hancock until 1965.

It's been said that one Sunday night in 1965, WHDH-FM/94.5 left the air from the Old Hancock for the last time. The FM transmitter was quickly moved down through an elevator shaft and was quickly shipped by truck over to the Channel 5 tower just in time for the next day's broadcasting schedule. They also started Stereo on the same day in '65 at what is now called "FM128". It also co-incided with the FCC 50/50 rule requiring 50% non-duplicated programming. Prior to 1965, WHDH-FM was pretty much an afterthought in the minds of the Herald-Traveler Corporation.

WBCN also had their transmitter on the Old Hancock until 1967 when it moved to the Pru. I recall hearing them switching between both sites for a while during '68 until they got the kinks out of it. Once the Pru site was truly functional, the old Hancock site went silent.

WKOX-FM/WVBF moved from Framingham to Needham in 1971. The old site (on Mt. Wayte Avenue in Framingham) was still a warm standby for several years thereafter.

 

[JustinT]

WMKK is on the North Shore because it is short-spaced to a co-channel station in (I think) Waterbury CT. I suppose WMKK might move to 128 if a) Entercom wanted to go to the expense and b) WMKK directionalized to the east. But were WMKK to move to 128, it would probably also have to change its CoL from Lawrence to someplace closer to Newton.

Wouldn't that put WMKK too close to 93.3 WSNE, 93.5 WFQR, and 94.1 WHJY? If only the Hartford station (93.7 WZMX) had to adjust its pattern, seems like it would almost be worth it.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

I've often wondered if the problems that some route 128 FM's experience downtown are caused by the antennas atop the Pru; if everybody moved to route 128, then this phenomenon could be eliminated.

Besides the reasons preventing some individual stations from doing that noted in posts above, it's not going to happen for one other simple reason. The commercial stations want their signals to penetrate the steel and concrete office buildings in Boston as best as possible, to reach the professional downtown daytime workforce. They're not as likely to be able to penetrate the maze of buildings downtown from 128.

And, the more stations that moved to the Pru, the more interference there was in Boston making reception of stations from 128 increasingly more difficult, so the Pru became the desirable place to be to reach the downtown workforce.

For example, Greater Media actually claimed in sponsor solicitations twenty years ago that their WMJX signal from the Pru prevented certain competing then-AC formatted stations from coming in well downtown. This was when they were fighting then-AC WVBF 105.7 transmitting from 128, and it was true. WMJX intermodulating with other stations on the Pru made a mess of 105.7's coverage in town back then, despite 105.7's excellent coverage of the suburbs from 128 at the time. When Greater Media bought 105.7 years later, they moved it in to the Pru to give it equal footing in the city.

Of course, all the stations, especially the ones transmitting from outside Boston, are nowadays also encouraging the downtown workforce to stream their stations on their desktop computers, but they still want their on-air signals to compete in town as well.

 

[necrat123]

WMKK is on the North Shore because it is short-spaced to a co-channel station in (I think) Waterbury CT. I suppose WMKK might move to 128 if a) Entercom wanted to go to the expense and b) WMKK directionalized to the east. But were WMKK to move to 128, it would probably also have to change its CoL from Lawrence to someplace closer to Newton.

Wouldn't that put WMKK too close to 93.3 WSNE, 93.5 WFQR, and 94.1 WHJY? If only the Hartford station (93.7 WZMX) had to adjust its pattern, seems like it would almost be worth it.

It would be too short to 93.3B Taunton, 93.7B Hartford, and 94.1B Providence to go non directional from FM128. The "null" would be fairly deep to the south, and southwest. Right now 93.7 has a pretty solid signal almost to the Rhode Island line from their location on Lakeland Park Dr., in Peabody. So I doubt there is any desire to move anytime soon.

 

[aaronread]

WBUR has to be west of the city because it must directionalize to the east to protect several other stations or else it must run much lower height-adjusted ERP, as it did from that building (is the the Law School?) on the BU campus.

Eh? WBUR's nulls are primarily to the southwest to protect WCNI, to the west to protect WICN on 90.5, and to the SSE to protect WDOM. Check out their submitted polar field plot.

If anything WBUR would have an easier time on the Pru, but in my UNinformed opinion, they're out in Needham primarily because of cost. The Pru's rents are outrageously high...about $100k/yr IIRC. It doesn't hurt that, in general, the Needham towers give better coverage in the burbs and WBUR very much wants to serve the more lucrative suburbs.

When they're using their aux site on top of the BU LAW tower, they run omni at 40,000 watts from only 76m HAAT (Needham is 12,000 watts at 305m HAAT). Anecdotally, I've heard that WBUR sometimes gets compliments from folks in Cambridge about how much "better" their signal is when they're on the aux. ;D

 

[DanStrassberg]

Eh?

What's your problem, Aaron? 12 kW at 1000' AAT, which is WBUR's equivalent power over the 140-degree arc
from 350 degrees true to 130 degrees true is roughly quivalent to the Class B maximum of 50 kW at 492'.

So the region of maximum ERP is centered at 60 degrees, which is east-northeast. The minimum ERP is 2.4 kW
at a couple of azimuths to the aouth and west

If 'BUR were, say, atop the Pru at what? ~750' AAT? and were ND, it would be restricted to about 4.2 kW.
If it were atop the Pru and directional, it would still be limited to ~4.2 kW to the south and west.

'BUR can only put a competitive signal over most of the market by running directional from one of the 128
towers.

It's not complicated.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

Also, Aaron, you're forgetting about the IF conflict between WBUR and WFNX. 101.7 - 90.9 = 10.8

Stations 10.6 to 10.8 mHz on the dial cannot be too close together, or IF spurs, where both stations may be heard on many various parts of the FM dial, may appear in people's receivers, especially lower quality receivers with poor rejection of that phenomenon.

I think that WFNX would be a major factor preventing WBUR from moving eastward, and I assume that even the WBUR backup on the BU Law Building would not be permitted to be used for more than on an occasional emergency basis since WFNX moved to Financial Place. (I'll have to ask WBUR engineering about that, now I'm curious about it).

I recall that a condition allowing WFNX to move their transmitter to Medford from it's original Lynn location back in the mid-'80s was WBUR moving their primary transmitter from BU Law to FM-128. The IF conflict from the BU Law transmitter previously prevented WFNX from moving in from the North Shore.

As someone who worked with WBRS Waltham, I'm sure you remember that one of the factors preventing them from a power increase on their original 91.7 frequency was the IF conflict with the old WCRB transmitter (now WKLB) on 102.5 from 128. As well, IF with WKLB is still one factor (of many others) limiting WUMB 91.9 from increasing power at their Quincy transmitter, or from moving it to a more central location.

 

[aaronread]

What's your problem, Aaron? 12 kW at 1000' AAT, which is WBUR's equivalent power over the 140-degree arc
from 350 degrees true to 130 degrees true is roughly quivalent to the Class B maximum of 50 kW at 492'.

Mea culpa...it's just you said they had to "directionalize to the east", which I interpreted as the NULL being to the east. You meant that the SIGNAL was primarily to the east. So I thought you had it backwards when we were really saying the same thing. Sorry! :-[

Aaron, you're forgetting about the IF conflict between WBUR and WFNX. 101.7 - 90.9 = 10.8

That's true, I *did* forget about that. However, I don't think wouldn't have been a problem until WFNX moved to OFC. I'd have to run the plots to be sure, but I/F separation distances usually aren't much; just a few kilometers. But you're right about WFNX on OFC being a helluva lot closer to WBUR's aux site on the LAW tower...that is a good question. I had been under the impression that a licensed aux site, like the LAW tower is, has to meet all the same rules as the main site...and is also entitled to the same protections. Maybe not...? And, let's not forget, that OFC is nearly twice as far away as the Pru is. Maybe it just barely meets the I/F separation rules. If you see Mike LeClair before I do, ask him about it.

As someone who worked with WBRS Waltham, I'm sure you remember that one of the factors preventing them from a power increase on their original 91.7 frequency was the IF conflict with the old WCRB transmitter (now WKLB) on 102.5 from 128. As well, IF with WKLB is still one factor (of many others) limiting WUMB 91.9 from increasing power at their Quincy transmitter, or from moving it to a more central location.

Yup...David Maxson told me that, many years ago when he was CE of WCRB and helping WBRS now and then, he used to hear the I/F interference driving into work at WCRB's offices a quarter-mile down the road from Brandeis. So it was a "real" issue, although nobody at WCRB considered it a problem; the effect was limited largely to Brandeis's campus.

The I/F issues with 102.5 and WUMB are part of the problem, yes...but these days I think there's more of an issue with WMLN; they have a significant amount of bi-directional overlap between their interfering contours. I don't know how/why it was authorized by the FCC...but I assume it has something to do with WMLN being a former Class D and very likely has something to do with Blue Hill "shielding" the two stations from each other. Similarly, WMFO (and even WMWM) also somewhat "hems in" WUMB to the north, and that new 91.7 CP in Marshfield will also "hem in" WUMB to the south. Plus they're also very limited by WOMR 92.1 out on P-town. In the end, I don't think WUMB could move an inch, horizontally or vertically. :-\

Just for a laugh: when I was volunteering at WMFO back in the day, I once figured out a way that WMFO could expand to 1000 watts directional, with a heavy null to the SW, by moving to 91.3FM. Obviously it would require WBUR's say-so since WMFO's 100dBu is well inside WBUR's 60dBu. However, even at 1kW the 100dBu contour was not all that big...most of it was within 5 blocks of the Tufts campus. I talked to WBUR about it and they wanted nothing to do with it, of course. : But it was an interesting exercise.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

As someone who worked with WBRS Waltham, I'm sure you remember that one of the factors preventing them from a power increase on their original 91.7 frequency was the IF conflict with the old WCRB transmitter (now WKLB) on 102.5 from 128. As well, IF with WKLB is still one factor (of many others) limiting WUMB 91.9 from increasing power at their Quincy transmitter, or from moving it to a more central location.

Similarly, WMFO (and even WMWM) also somewhat "hems in" WUMB to the north, and that new 91.7 CP in Marshfield will also "hem in" WUMB to the south.

The 91.7 CP in Marshfield is reportedly going to be another WUMB repeater station (they defeated the original application for the frequency from the TIC for the Blind), so it will effectively increase their coverage.

Plus they're also very limited by WOMR 92.1 out on P-town. In the end, I don't think WUMB could move an inch, horizontally or vertically. :-\

You can be guaranteed that they would have grabbed even just that extra inch if there was any way possible!

 

[aaronread]

The 91.7 CP in Marshfield is reportedly going to be another WUMB repeater station (they defeated the original application for the frequency from the TIC for the Blind), so it will effectively increase their coverage.

True, but as Grady Moates will likely attest, it still means there's "interference" (real-world, not by FCC standards) between the two stations. Much like how even though he's got WUMB and WFPB and WBPR all synchronized, radios on the fringe of each signal go nuts trying to "capture" each signal as they reach parity in signal strength; sounds a lot like multipath interference.

 

[LA_Guy]

WZBC is extremely lucky to have the kilowatt they have. Ed Perry showed his genius both as engineer AND politician with WZBC. They originally signed on as a ten watt FM on 90.3. They got their kilowatt because WBUR wanted to move to Needham and they were blocking it. It was a specially negotiated settlement which would NOT be permitted today. WGBH wasn't part of it simply because they never fought it (again, for political reasons-Boston College is a MAJOR part of WGBH's licensee). I'm sure that the two stations (GBH and BUR) didn't want to take on the Archdiocese of Boston either!

I highly doubt that WZBC will ever have any more power then they have now. Just look at how Tufts University's WMFO (equidistant on the other side of WBUR) fared. They didn't have Ed Perry to play hardball for them, and wound up with a highly directional 100 watt signal thay many (including me) believe is inferior to their (original) ten watt signal.