WHAM SIGNAL COVERAGE

[Adman4120]

Hello...I am not technically inclined and I posted this same question an another board concerning WGY, so I assume the answer will be the same, but I thought I would ask anyway.

I live in the Rome, NY area, and at night, you cannot even pick up WGY. I thought for a 50,000 watt, non-directional signal, only 90-miles away, it would boom in. I was told by several posters, that Rome must be in a spot where the WGY skywave comes into play, thus, no WGY. All you can hear is noise, other stations underneath, fading in and out.

I was wondering is this is the same reason why I cannot also pick up WHAM, 1180? Are they also 50,000 watts non-directional? At night, you can barely make out that WHAM is even there. Is skywave, the same reason why it does not come in.

If so, what luck. Two stations that I would like to listen to do not come in at night. Rome is obviously located between both station locations and in a bad spot.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Radknowski]

I asked this same question years ago regarding listening to WHAM, Rochester in Buffalo. An experienced Chief Engineer explained the situation like this, to paraphrase. "We live in an area where the skyway and ground wave reach reach us at nearly the exact same time, frequently cancelling each other (phase cancellation), so reception can be spotty... it's like listening to a low power AM station, when you have to turn the radio so the ferrite antenna can pick up the signal a little better."

Made sense to me.

 

[Tom Wells]

Sad but true, 50kw AMs have a ring of skywave/groundwave cancellation creating a "ring" of non-reception.

Out here in Chicago, I find this area to be a good deal farther out, about 150-200 miles, then reception is OK again.
Must be the diffferent conductivity here vs rocky New York state.

 

[fybush]

In fairness, ANY AM station has a groundwave/skywave cancellation ring - it's just that for anything short of a 50 kW clear, there's usually so much else on the channel that incoming co-channel interference wipes out the signal before skywave/groundwave cancellation becomes an issue.

And, yes, regional differences in ground conductivity can make a difference in where that cancellation ring falls - but so can variations in the transmitting antenna. Differing antenna heights (more correctly, antenna wavelengths) can cause the skywave signals to be launched at different angles, which means they come down at varying distances. In general, the shorter the wavelength of the tower, the closer in that skywave tends to land, which is one reason WWKB on 1520 is such a hopeless mess at night here in Rochester, just 70 miles or so from their towers.

 

[Savage]

The 360-degree "null" phenomenon typical of 50kw NDA reception has been dealt with by various stations by using what's called a "Franklin" antenna. The vertical radiator is split in half with insulators separating the two tower sections. The tower is phase-fed, as in directional antenna systems, to electrically delay part of the signal so that skywave and groundwave are slightly out of phase. This mitigates the cancellation ring. Franklin antennae use an antenna monitor, like a DA, even though there's only one tower.

WHO in Des Moines has a Franklin system which works well. KDKA's apparently does not, from all reports. WNBF in Binghamton for many years used a Franklin on their daytime 5/8 wave NDA radiator. When the TV was split off from radio post-Triangle Publications owners, 1290 reverted to the standard series vertical radiator, but to accomplish the same field at 1km they had to boost power to - I think its 9kw.

 

[therealjm12]

Hi Dave. Welcome to the Buffalo - Rochester board. I know back in the old days when WGY was owned by G.E. The chief engineer was known to be a bit of an eccentric even in the engineering circles. He kept the peak modulation on the transmitter at 80%. Just at legal limits. I was told it was engergy and cost saving policy. It supposedly saved on the tubes, too. When I listened to WGY in New Hartford it always sounded soft. Didn't boom in like you would expect a 50K signal would. WHAM did not come in all that great either. Both stations are now owned by Clear Channel, and you know they would like to save money but you can bet both stations are peaking at 100% now days.

 

[W2JUV_AL]

And, yes, regional differences in ground conductivity can make a difference in where that cancellation ring falls - but so can variations in the transmitting antenna. Differing antenna heights (more correctly, antenna wavelengths) can cause the skywave signals to be launched at different angles, which means they come down at varying distances. In general, the shorter the wavelength of the tower, the closer in that skywave tends to land, which is one reason WWKB on 1520 is such a hopeless mess at night here in Rochester, just 70 miles or so from their towers.

........somewhere I read that WLW reduced their tower height from 831' to 739' to reduce skywave interference in the "cancellation zone". IIRC, the reduction in tower height decreased daytime ground wave signal, but also had the effect of extending the "cancellation zone" further away from the Tx site at night.

 

[fybush]

........somewhere I read that WLW reduced their tower height from 831' to 739' to reduce skywave interference in the "cancellation zone". IIRC, the reduction in tower height decreased daytime ground wave signal, but also had the effect of extending the "cancellation zone" further away from the Tx site at night.

Indeed they did - and WSM in Nashville likewise reduced the height of their tower a bit around the same time (late 30s). For WLW, that pushed the cancellation zone out past Columbus, Indianapolis, Louisville and Lexington; for WSM, it pushed the zone out past Chattanooga and Huntsville.

 

[Radknowski]

"We live in an area where the skyway and ground wave reach reach us at nearly the exact same time..."

And if you read this sentence carefully, it should be clear that I am a true Buffalonian...
I meant sky wave... doh! Thanks, Sherlock.

For those not from these here parts, the Skyway is an elevated, half mile long bridge that's part of NY Rt 5. It runs parallel to lake Erie and is often closed in the winter when lake effect snow and high wind roar in off the lake. Many Buffalonians seek its destruction because it costs so much to maintain. A few people have actually been blown off the Skyway as a result of getting out of their cars when traffic is stopped and weather is bad. Not a laughing matter.

One thing about the skyway, it does afford, if only briefly, great access to AM & FM signals (including AM skywave)as well as a magnificent view of lake Erie and the mouth of the Niagara River... just please, try to keep two hands on the wheel and your eyes on the road.

 

[Tom Wells]

For those not from these here parts, the Skyway is an elevated, half mile long bridge that's part of NY Rt 5. It runs parallel to lake Erie and is often closed in the winter when lake effect snow and high wind roar in off the lake. Many Buffalonians seek its destruction because it costs so much to maintain. A few people have actually been blown off the Skyway as a result of getting out of their cars when traffic is stopped and weather is bad. Not a laughing matter.

One thing about the skyway, it does afford, if only briefly, great access to AM & FM signals (including AM skywave)as well as a magnificent view of lake Erie and the mouth of the Niagara River... just please, try to keep two hands on the wheel and your eyes on the road.

Chicago Skyway gives all the same effects. View from Chicago to Michigan, huge Ore boats, etc.
Don't know if anyone ever blew off, but they did remove nearly a half mile of "steel el structure", replacing it with a mound of dirt instead,
and a steeper slope, figuring to save much in maintaining a steel structure.

I never even caught that typo. I guess I'm going too fast.

 

[cyberdad]

Personal experience....

I went to college in Eastern Iowa during the late '60s heyday of Chicago's WLS. 200 miles out. Daytime reception was fair, but nighttime was poor, due to the groundwave/skywave phasing. The result was that nighttime top 40 listening on campus generally flipped over to KAAY, KOMA, and even WABC.

(Travel 100 miles west to Des Moines (farther from the stick) and the WLS nighttime signal came booming in like a local.)

 

[Tom Wells]

I experience this driving to St Louis, Omaha, Terre Haute, Effinnham, frequently.
It's as regular as a sunrise.

 

[bowserb]

Just thought I'd let people know...........WHAM comes in quite well between 10pm-7am down here in the Columbus, OH area

 

[AndrewLawson]

One of the finest 50kW skywave signals from the midwest that gets into Buffalo is 840 WHAS Louisville. Honorable mention to 780 WBBM and 890 WLS from the Windy City.

 

[cyberdad]

Just thought I'd let people know...........WHAM comes in quite well between 10pm-7am down here in the Columbus, OH area

As well it should, being well beyond the convergence zone.

 

[dustintv]

I asked this same question years ago regarding listening to WHAM, Rochester in Buffalo. An experienced Chief Engineer explained the situation like this, to paraphrase. "We live in an area where the skyway and ground wave reach reach us at nearly the exact same time, frequently cancelling each other (phase cancellation), so reception can be spotty... it's like listening to a low power AM station, when you have to turn the radio so the ferrite antenna can pick up the signal a little better."

Made sense to me.

That's interesting because I've never had problems getting WHAM when I lived in Buffalo but I do know that WWKB is sometimes messy where I'm at in Brockport.

 

[cyberdad]

No problems this past week listening to "KB" all day in Montreal....courtesy of winter daytime skip.

 

[Len14043]

WHAM is actually a blowtorch at night. Back in the early 80's, WHAM was receivable in Nevada after midnight MST when KOFI in Kalispel Montana signed off. That would be difficult today due to the new assignments on 1180. Today, WHAM is still strong in Minneapolis and is easily receivable in the Dakotas. Going south is another story due to interference from Cuba. In Georgia, 1180 is a mix of WHAM, Cuban stations and other stations. I travel alot and have experienced the ring of cancellation for most 50 Kw station. Specifically, at night it is difficult to hear WLW in Louisville, WLS in Indianapolis, WTAM in Mansfield Ohio, WHAS and WOWO in Cincinnati, etc. Ground conductivity is also a factor in determining the distance of the cancellation zone. KSL, being close in frequency to WHAM, has a cancellation zone much farther out than WHAM bucause of the excellant ground conductivity in Utah. This is why KSL could be heard much farther during the day than WHAM. At night however, both stations have about the same range because ground conductivity is not a factor. In eastern Kansas, approximately equal in distance between Salt Lake City and Rochester, both stations have about the same strenght but can vary from night-to-night.