What happened in the trends?

[earsay]

Has anyone seen the trends today? Anything earth shattering?

 

[jetfli]

Has anyone seen the trends today? Anything earth shattering?

The trends were one of the first things I saw when coming back into the office for the first time since the month began. Never anything earth shattering in the trends, but it looks like there may be an indication of some changing patterns in the market if the trends hold up throughout the Winter book.

1. News talk seems to be sliding, and sports talk seems to be growing. The Zone may be going through a growth spurt, and that's somewhat significant because once the Titans are done for the season, the ratings usually go down. All indication from informal discussion about the upward trend is that it can be credited to current sports interest (Pacman news, Preds doing well, and more interest in college basketball this year), and growing disillusion with local talk stations (people tired of the same old programming and fewer true local shows on the air now).

And the surprising X-factor here is the number of former Coyote and Cathy listeners who say they now listen to the Wake-Up Zone because it is live, local, informative, and mostly clean. Who'd have thought so many of their listeners would have moved to sports talk? Not the former C&C listeners, according to them -- they say they can't believe they're listening to sports talk. If C&C lands again when their non-compete ends, it may show up in slightly lower Wake-Up Zone ratings. Maybe Bud (as in beer) Ford (as in truck) should hire them for KDF to at least keep the listeners in the family.

If I were one of the two news talkers (or if I wanted to start a new one), I'd be among the first in line to pick up the new Dennis Miller show -- something fresh with a known host. Either that, or move in even more sports programming.

2. 97.1's format change hasn't stopped its ratings erosin. It's interesting how Bob & Tom worked on the Buzz, yet the Buzz without Bob & Tom is still hanging in about the same spot. The Buzz format had a lot to do with it, as Bob & Tom on 97.1 can't save that sinking ship.

3. Just as I thought WRLT was settling to the bottom of the pack, v102.5 surprised by sinking even lower. That's a real shame, because v102.5 is sounding better than anything has at that frequency in years, especially as programmed by Dean Warfield. Maybe they need to hire C&C and go Oldies.

 

[ROCKO11]

And when are you going to wake up and realize Oldies don't sell! Yes it has listeners, but the ad agencies won't buy it! Music Titles from the 60's are all wore out and have played in every market for over 20 years. Hell, in 1978, so called "Oldies Stations" were playing Beatles titles that were on 14 years old and calling them Oldies. But somebody like you will take a title from 1985, which was almost 22 years ago and call it a current.

Folks, it's just about over for 60's music in the broadcast world! We've already seen the 50's die off! The youth of America, the 20 and early 30 year olds are taking over the business world and they are going to force you to listen to titles from The Frey, The Goo Goo Dolls, etc., unless you have XM, CD players, mp3 players, etc. They could care less about the Mama's & the Pappa's, The Turtles, etc from the 60's.

Thier parents play the s*** out of those songs when they were kids, and now they are growned and control the business world and they don't want to hear it, and if they are a marketing rep for a ad company, they turn thier nose up at an Oldies Station like a cat turns it's nose up on food it hates to eat.

This is why V-102.5 will never change. Bud's advertisers won't buy it. Go ask your 21 year old kid! They will also ask you why you keep carrying on this Coyote and Cathy old news, dead weight stuff. They gone, and the majority of the youth of Nashville seems to careless. I don't hear over 60% of them complaining!

Also Bob & Tom won't be coming off 97.1 for a long while. They have a long term contract with Clear Channel (who owns the right to B&T) to carry the program, and it's got Cumulus stuck for a long time.

 

[yorkie9]

Wow, rock011! What a rant! I guess some oldies station beat you up as a kid. ;D

I think jetfli was making a joke about V102.5 hiring Coyote and Cathy and going oldies. However, you are incorrect to say oldies cannot be profitable if done correctly. If you're making 97.1 the station you judge oldies by, you're way off base. 96.3 had drifted away from a true oldies format (getting stuck in a Beatles rut) long before the format dump. 97.1 took it all the way back to that 104.5 rockin hits format a few years back. To me, the jocks on 97.1 sound too young to be spinning the most of the music they are (with the exception of the ill-programmed 80's stuff they throw in every once in a while)!! A true oldies station here with a much bigger playlist (don't be afraid to play Buddy Holly and bring back Supergold) and some knowledgeable jocks (Bobby Knight, where are you?) would work if not done on the cheap. I'd see an Oldies station with a Jack FM sized playlist working quite nicely. We're all so worried about the young crowd when the folks who grew up listening to Jackie Wilson and The Beach Boys still have plenty of money to spend.

There's an entire demographic out there that still turns up the radio when an Al Wilson or Supertramp or Everly Brothers song gets played and we buy just as much stuff as a 21 year old kid and we're paying cash - not just sticking it on plastic! I find myself listening more and more to WVCP on 88.5 since that's the only place to hear a lot of good 50's-70's music these days.

I agree with jetfli - V102.5 is sounding much better. Dean sounds great in the mornings. The problem - no one knows he's there. Like WKRP, there seems to be no promo budget. My strategy would be to publicize V102.5 as the younger alternative to Mix 92.9.

 

[jetfli]

Thanks, yorkie9, the suggestion for V102.5 to go oldies was indeed tongue-in-cheek. I didn't mean to upset the apple cart over in Gallatin, as I'm well aware of what the experience has been with Oldies there. Sorry, I know I should use smilies to mark the humor, but sometimes I find it just so... painful...

I was addressing ratings, and V102.5 probably could get higher ratings for awhile due to the attention they'd get by going Oldies. And it might work well if they took the station back to Shelbyville and sold it as a local station ala WKOM, but the problem as the station exists now would come in trying to sell the tandem of Buzz and Oldies to the same client list. Just won't happen. (You know one of the complaints continually coming up at the regional FCC hearings is that the cluster mentality in operations and sales has led to fewer formats. But that's another story/post).

I would love to hear an Oldies station like the one you describe, but under today's conditions in this market, ROCKO11 and I both know no one's going to do it. What slays me are the sales staffs who wait on agency buys to come to them instead of pounding the pavement and making deals directly with local business. This is why I have said before that agencies are dictating formats, because stations are content to format as to what agencies will buy.

Don't even begin to get me started on why agencies buy radio to reach a younger market anyway, when that audience represents the lowest users of radio. Yes, ROCKO11, I can ask my 21-year-old kid, but he's not interested in radio, with the exception of picking up some sports info or games on the Zone. So why advertise to people who aren't listening anyway? This is a big clue to what's wrong with today's radio advertising situation.

Oh, and as much as I'd like to see Bob & Tom banished from the airwaves (my 21-year-old kid can't stand 'em either), I realize they aren't going anywhere. I predict what we'll eventually see is 97.1's format continually changing until it can reach the same audience as Bob & Tom.

Back to you, yorkie9, maybe what V102.5 needs to do is drop turkeys from a helicopter...

 

[ROCKO11]

The reason why your hearing all that gold on WVCP is because they are still broadcasting from the transmitter site (due to the rebuilding of the Nobel Building that suffer damage last April from the tornado) with a Dell PC, and the Station Manager is playing what he wants, because he's well over 55 years old. WVCP is a non-comm and it's it's money comes from student enrollment at Vol-State, in addition it is a state owned school. If your wanting that format so bad, that's about where it's going to end up, on a non-comm FM, like WVCP. At least the AC/DC music is off there for now, until the students take back over.
I gave you a hint today straight from a Clear Channel Sales Exec. that Cumulus is locked in to keep Bob and Tom. Clear Channel was smart in doing this. Yorkie9, it is just wishfull thinking on your part to sit there and tell me, oh I know how to program Oldies and do it right!
I've heard about 50 S.O.B's saying that on this and other boards. Look, face reality, it's over! Did the kids growing up in the 60's had a desire to hear music of the 30's? Hell no!, they rebelled. Now your trying to keep an era alive that is over 40 years old. Forget it, the youth of America is kicking you out the door and thier generation has taken over. I'm well over 40, and I don't agree with it, but all these damn 50 year olds want a be "60's Oldies" P.D.'s better wake up, it's over!
The majority of the young adults in Nashville 18-35, could care less about Coyote McCloud and Cathy Martindale. To them, he's just a silly old man living in the past! He needs to go back to country song writing or retire.... period. Bobby Knight has talent, but he better go find some Hot AC stations to voice track for.
If your so hung up on this, then go out to your car and sit there and listen to ABC's feed on WKOM, before someday, it dies too!

 

[lash]

I'm so tired of reading the oldies are dead passages. The young people of America are the ones not listening to radio. And if your really up on the radio business and advertising, alot of new efforts have been put into place, and articles have been written about the ad agencies and how they focusing their attention to the baby boomers again.

How in the hell do TV cable stations like TV Land, VH1, VH1 Classic, A&E etc, survive without baby boomers and the advertisers? They do survive, and do quite well.

So move the music up again into the late 60's, early 70's, whatever. But stop thinking that young people are driving radio. They are 100% driving away from radio.

One thing that should be done, is get rid of the banner of "Oldies". Even Classic Hits is lazy. Be creative, and start something new.

 

[RadioWarrior]

Just chiming in on a few of the issues above.

a.) V102.5 does sound better than ever, including Dean. Not so sure about Lulu, but the music sounds much better. They still need some work, and a LOT of marketing but they could do something with the whole 80's focus they have going on. They seem to be using the "V" for "Variety" lately. Is "Variety 102.5" far off? Are they trying to take a bite out of Mix? And can they? Or does the lack of signal mean they don't have a chance?

b.) Oldies is an extremely viable format is many markets. There's a reason that is usually one of the top 3 or 4 formats (as far as number of commerical radio stations in the country.)

c.) Where IS Bobby Knight?

d.) WVCP Gallatin. Talk about a gem! I LOVE tuning them in, whenever I can get them. The signal isn't great, but they reach as far south as Briley Parkway. While I am sorry they lost just about everything in the tornado, musically the 70's pop stuff sounds great, automated by a laptop or not.

e.) ROCK011. The word you are trying to use is "you're," NOT "your." As a former English teacher, let me suggest that when unsure, you write "you are" instead to avoid making a fifth grade error. And despite Jeff Foxworthy's latest gig, I have hope that we are ALL smarter than a fifth grader.

 

[jetfli]

I've read those same articles you have, lash, and I know places where it's happening as described. Unfortunately, Nashville is often behind the trends. The corporate positioning here isn't right for it, and won't be until something changes. If this market didn't have a disproportionate-to-market-size amount of AMs devoted to preacher and Hispanic stations, something might could have happened with Oldies there. Otherwise, it's up to CDs and iPods to bring back the Oldies for now.

Warrior: I have a feeling we haven't heard a lot about V102.5 yet because there's something more to come.

 

[ROCKO11]

Sorry, I get carried away when i'm typing....YOU'RE RIGHT!


Nashville is a terrible radio market, compaired to the rest of the country, and has been for many years. It's been a good TV market, but radio has always been bad here. It's like we're 20 years behind the times and we get silly out of town consultants that think they know how the Nashville Customers (listeners and advertisers) think.

I'm one that still believes that KDF screwed up by going country back in 99. But now, there is no truning back for them, it now has an established audience and Titans Football to boot. As much as I love Adult Alternative rock, KDF was doing poorly with that format, and Carl P. and his gang of consultants came in to rescue the station by taking it country, and I would say they did do a good job on that end.

As far as all this "Crying for Oldies" goes, it needs to stop being discussed. One thing that has killed that fomat is the same 400 titles being played over and over in this and other markets. Let the 60's Titles have a rest. Gee most of them are 40 years old, or older, and have been played to death over the past 20 years.

 

[yorkie9]

Rock011, though I still fundamentally disagree with your feeling that Oldies is dead, I completely agree that the 60's have been beat into the ground. There is a lot of music pre-Beatles that just plain gets ignored and I think that the "Beatles/60's" rut 96.3 got caught up in ruined the station and the format here. Do you think they really had 400 songs in their playlist ???

You also make a great point about KDF. Someone was playing "Closing Time" on my drive home today and I still think back to the demise of KDF every time I hear it. I still think - as I posted a long time ago - that KDF turning it's back on it's rock heritage was a huge mistake. Of course, those of us that remember KDF as a rock powerhouse are dying off now so that problem is slowly going away listener by listener!

I do really enjoy the music on WVCP - and I'll be fine with the AC/DC being mixed in also. I know the chances of oldies (great point by lash - something new needs to be done with the format and quit calling it and the people who listen to it oldies!) coming back and being viable are slim to none also, but I'd sure love to have a little more variety. I find myself flipping through channels a lot lately.

So many great comments here - I don't know where to end. I will comment on Bob and Tom - I listened to them in Cincinnati when they first went syndicated and I enjoyed it. Now, I'm tired of them. Seems like the same schtick over and over. I've been listening to Free Beer and Hot Wings on the Buzz and I think they are a major improvement and a much better fit for them.

 

[jackshell]

I honestly think the problem with oldies existing is a "hip" factor. Seriously, who wants to listen to a radio station called "Oldies"? The name alone is what has killed that music. Stations that called themselves "Oldies" have died all over the place, because nobody wants to feel old. And let's face it, today's "old" people are far from old. Hell, my seventy-nine year old grandfather and I communicate daily on AOL Instant Messenger, and my sixty-two year old father is also quite tech savvy. The music is only as old as you image it. The music is old, but the presentation has to be fresh, and the promotions have to be hip, and appealing to younger demos. Don't give away classic cars. Give away a new car. Give listeners chances to win contemporary prizes like iPods, Tivos, and shy away from cruises, and trips to Lost Wages that are for old farts. Don't EVER give out years of songs. We all know the shit is old, and people who grew up with that music don't need to be reminded that their favorite song came out forty freakin' years ago. Keep the personality current and fresh. No nostalgia references at ALL. No "remember when rock and roll was fun"? That music still IS "fun". Use a voice guy who doesn't sound like Gary Owens, hire announcers who don't sound old, and get a jingle package that doesn't sound "Drake", and use it sparingly, because jingles are also "old". If you want to do "retro", get a handful of mid 70s JAM cuts from Priority One re-sung with the sonovox, but do not do Drake. Keep the tempo UP UP UP, and keep the ballads to the minimum. I also think that 60s, 70, and 80s can be equally represented. My parents lived through all three of those decades, and love music from all of those genres. I also disagree that today's youth don't like classic hits at all. I am in my early thirties, and my mp3 player has everything from the last four decades on it. Many times when I hit shuffle on the way into work, I feel as if I have created the "perfect" oldies station. And because I am a radio geek, I even have some jingles in there too for segue purposes. The solution for oldies radio isn't Jack-FM, but it IS in variety, irreverence, and staying current, even when the music isn't.

 

[radiogal1234]

Great post Jack. Do you think someone might catch on and listen?

 

[ROCKO11]

Jackshell, Don't tell me we need to give a "Fresh Approch" to creepy 1200, WAMB! Please, Bob Stitch (god bless him) needs to retire! There is no fresh and new approch to music 35-45 years old. I do agree with you the phrase "oldies" has killed that format, and it has hurt the format on this board by stereotyping the audience as OLD FOGGIES!

You can play Beatles Music with the Current (Hot AC) Format. A good mix of "rockish" 60's, 70's and up to todays is fine and sounds good to me. The problem is the 60 plus crowd doesn't like it.

R

 

[Tibbs4]

Rock:

Are you saying the 60+ crowd doesn't like currentmusic mixed in with "the past" or they don't wanna rock, regardless of tempo or age of the music?

 

[barnaby_wilde]

I think jackshell has a point. The music may be old, but the station doesn't have to be. I have to admit that I know nothing about the radio business, but I find little to like about most of today's music. Unfortunately it is doubtful that anyone can repackage an oldies format without the stigma of what oldies formats have been in the past (400 song playlists with 1-2 songs per artist). Perhaps a Top 25 format. Not 25 songs, but 25 years! 1955-1979 Play the Temptations (something besides "My Girl"), Van Morrision (something besides "Brown Eyed Girl"), Paul Revere (something besides "Indian Reservation"), Roy Orbison, Doobies, Skynyrd, Elton John, and Supertramp. Throw in some good time 50's and make darn sure that you play at least two songs an hour that make people say "I haven't heard that in a long time (or ever - for the non-boomers)." There's lots of great underplayed music from the "oldies" era. And, I don't mean digging up the most obscure tunes ever produced. I am talking about tunes that made the top 40 during those years. That's what I listen to in my CD changer and MP3 player and would listen to on the radio if it were available. It's the baby boomer's boombox.

 

[ROCKO11]

Baby-Boomers....That is a MISLEADING statement made by the 55 plus crowd born in the 40's and early 50's. They tend to believe there are more of them than the 18-35 year olds in the US. Sounds like to me that baby-boomer statement can turn into a racial statement as well, due to I feel they don't want to count Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc. in the US!

There have been WAY MORE people born in the US between 1990 and today. Just ride down to Section 8 housing and take a good look! You tell me they don't count! That's B.S. There have been way more people born in the last 20 years than there was in the 40's & early 50's!

R

 

[barnaby_wilde]

ROCKO11
I didn't mean that there are more 50+ folks than 18-35. Heck, I check the obits just to make sure I am still around. However, there are still a sizeable number of us and while we and our music may be old, we're still breathing, and consuming goods and services - even buying stuff for our 18-35 kids and their kids. "Baby boomers boombox" was just a catch phrase and no more racial than "Oldies" or "Jack" or "Classic Rock" or "CHR". If radio's business is marketing to Section 8 housing residents, then so be it. Perhaps you could start a "Section 8" format.

I suspect that radio is geared to try and reach the masses. That's why they call it broadcasting. However, just because there are a lot of 18-35's doesn't mean all clothing stores have to be the GAP to survive. The GAP and Lane Bryant can both make money in the same shopping mall. Can't radio do the same thing?

Maybe Nashville's a sports town. We've got 3 all sports stations and 2 of them have never come close in ratings to either 96.3 or 97.1 as oldies stations - even in their best periods and oldies worst. I still listen to music, just not on the radio.

Have the corporate gurus and so-called consultants sucked all the personality out of radio broadcasting? You sure make it sound that way.

 

[jetfli]

I suspect that radio is geared to try and reach the masses. That's why they call it broadcasting. However, just because there are a lot of 18-35's doesn't mean all clothing stores have to be the GAP to survive. The GAP and Lane Bryant can both make money in the same shopping mall. Can't radio do the same thing?

It certainly could if we didn't have so many corporations tying up frequencies and engaged in cluster sales strategies. If more of our stations were either independently-owned or cluster sizes were limited, we'd have a larger variety of formats.

Maybe Nashville's a sports town. We've got 3 all sports stations and 2 of them have never come close in ratings to either 96.3 or 97.1 as oldies stations - even in their best periods and oldies worst.I still listen to music, just not on the radio.

Yer dern tootin' Nashville's a sports town. That's why, despite the Fan's & NSR's ratings, they can still sell the formats. In fact, I can make a case for a fourth sports station, to be paired with the Zone in the same way Citadel did when it created a clone for JOX in Birmingham, where there aren't even any major, major league sports. Not only are there more sports programming and team afilliations to go around, the Zone could use its own AM or minor FM station to pick up all the game and program conflicts it has. I'm not predicting it would happen, I'm just saying I can make a case for it.

*******

Anyway, speaking of radio in states south of Nashville, I noticed that Jack just kicked the bucket down in Savannah, GA, and it was replaced with *GASP* an Oldies format. Must be a lot of retirement homes down there. OK, I'll use a smiley this time: ;D.

 

[jefflaurence]

Wow..Lot's of good stuff here. I am really proud of Jack Shell. He has come a long way, and learned a lot. He is a really amazing producer and voice guy. He brought up some great points..but what about this? I have been watching prime time TV tonight, and there are MORE national TV spots using "oldies" tracks as hooks for thier products. Ad agencies do those, and they revert to old songs almost every time. So I just don't believe that the music is the problem. Yeah the same 350 songs is boring, but nobody I know these days sits down to a "few hours" of good old radio listening..the best that a station can hope for is a lot of little 20 minute "cells" of active audiences. So the number of songs isn't as important as making darn sure they are not coming up over and over at the same times. We all know that the habit of the listener is to listen at generally the same times every day...so when "My Girl" shows up at the same quarter hour three or four days a week due to lack of attention to the scheduler..there's the issue. THAT'S partially what makes for boring radio..laziness at scheduling.

And again Mr. Shell is right about jingles and imaging. We can play the classic songs, but instead of dwelling on the "good old days"..dwell on the inside scoop on the recording sessions, something about the artists..anything but references to years, or "old" anything. And localize that sucker! My client station in Denver calls thier product "Mile High Hit's". Hey that can mean anything..and it works for them. Imaging HAS to be compelling and fun. Not the same old "picks you up and makes you fell goooood"..or "sing along favorites....etc" YUUUCH!