what happens when...?

[Radio_bored-Op]

...just because i know buffalo/wny geography best, i am asking here:

say...if wtss-fm, started to do "reeely" WELL in...jamestown, where it
hit soo well, it didnt scrap the bottom of the barrel, but reely started
to beat out, some jamestown , ny stations -- how does that all work ?

same thing: BUT this is a cdn,station - being on the US rating system:
every one in meadville, pa, listens to giant FM, ( due to 'stragetic positioning on
the dial, and lake ontario)...giant fm is rated just below froggy... ( hypothetically, lol )

so, i am not playing fave's...could be any station: wedg/wkse/wblk, just star102, does BOOM into the next market...
in a few directions! crosses state-lines, and the border!


*ALSO*
how does this work...a station, some where/any where in ohio is "light years" ( distance) away from
a station in northern pa (again, for example) but thanks to hill top carrying signals, lakes, mountains,etc
...there is noticeable interference on the 2 frequencies: -example, 105.1 PA / and 104.7 ohio

>>Does this factor into the the rules of assigning freq's..for "new" or possible additional stations,
on the dial...( i know, one must wait, for the filing period; application window,etc) but, in this
scenario the criteria, seems to be filled, ( for each station respectively, to far enough away) but
due to...ooh heck, "global warming" ( haha) will cause trouble for one if both were to be granted
a licensce for operation ( i have NO IDEA: what class, not my area of expertise)...so my question:
(1) whom is right, since they may have applied at the same time.
(2) would the FCC, powers that be, not factor in the unusual interference factor, and award both stations, the
right to broadcast ( * saying those freq's were available, and -who-ever- won would have this issue to deal with ).
(3) or, would this be covered in the engineer's study, required...with some thing like, "even though
with in the legal range, this will not work because of station 'x'.FM, upsetting an existing/or potentially new station...

thank u...
as i fly, or drive thru regions of the country, it does seem, a LOT of out of market stations, are "owning"
the dial, until some one else, maybe 2 or 3 towns over, finally drops them out.
(it is funny, to hear a commercial, for xyz,product, and the live broadcast)...at "140 market blvd"
and, as u drive thru the region, stop and think where the hell is that !? lol...that could be promoting
a 'rinky-dink' remote 75 miles away ! lol....*AND THE FUNNY THING* the talent, ASSUME, ( yeea, i said,
ASSUME) u know *exactly* where "140 market blvd meets franklin avenue" !!! lol.

 

[VoiceGuyJack]

What????

 

[Radio_bored-Op]

what happens when...............

>>> say, star 102. is charting in the next arbitron-rated city?!
could a station, not from market ###'s actually chart *better* stations
with in that market ?!

if star102, is rated number one is Olean,ny for example -- how
would that effect advertising on wtss; and how it would effect
the numbers for the "foreign" city ?

>>>>part 2-of my question:
what happens when, say GIANT fm 91.7 could become the
number one station, in meadville - since the lake is right there
to make that possible; since giantFM, is canadian, how would
that effect the rating-system.

part 3-
...every soo often you hear of either LP-FM's "popping" up,
or a station moving from AM to FM - and it is usually...a *finally* happened scenario...
well, the deliberate rules that govern this are set, soo many -x#number of miles, in between stations;
ajacent alloments are SET; even the class of the signal, etc.........*but* how does this factor in,
more now than ever, since canada and US, arent being as respectful to each other, with the
few available(or better yet, taken) frequencies...(103.9,106.5, toronto), is a good example...

i am uncertain of the US-regulations, however, if northeast PA, could legally signed on a 91.9FM- it would
just "kill" giant fm's signal - in parts of the PA-'scatter'coverage, but more importantly, it may/could
really upset 'patches' of southern ontario .....trying to listen to giant...because of this "phantom" 91.9 -
my question::: is this legal, i am sure it is far enough away ( distance, miles, etc) but * because of that
lake, does that change *or,did that change* any thing-perhaps when these freq's were 1st
being assisgned......ok, ty.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Chaos Theory

RBO,

Radio markets are generally measured based on their Metro Service Area (MSA) and Total Service Area (TSA). Ratings are usually based on the Metro Service Area for the city of license of that radio station.

There are instances where a station doesn't do well in its city of license, but does very well in another nearby market. In your example, let's say that Star's numbers sucked in Buffalo - their city of license - but were huge in Olean - a distant market outside their MSA. In that case, the sales people might have trouble selling spots in Buffalo unless they dropped the price far below the going rate for other stations that had more listeners. Normally, advertisers in Olean would look for a local station to advertise with, and wouldn't want to pay Buffalo rates for spots. In this case, let's say that Star is the #1 station in Olean, and that their rates in Buffalo are way below regular Buffalo rates. In this case, I'm betting that Star would either send sales people to Olean, or hire a local rep to sell airtime for Olean advertisers.

In other words, it's all about the money. Radio stations don't care where it comes from, as long as it comes through the door.

Ratings-wise, Arbitron doesn't care where the signal originates. They just care about who's listening to what. Several Buffalo stations have done decent numbers in Toronto in the past, and sold advertising there as well. Several Canadian stations have done business in Buffalo as well.

There are a slew of FCC rules regarding channel interference. First adjacent channel, second adjacent channel, directional antennae, ground conductivity, height above average terrain - enough considerations to give a consulting engineer headaches. You might better address those questions to the Engineering board. Those guys are far more enlightened about those issues than most of the folks on this board.

The short answer is that licensed stations generally had an unimpeded signal in the TSA and for a reasonable distance beyond. Nobody could broadcast on the same frequency, or adjacent frequencies so that there wouldn't be any chance of interference in your TSA. More recently, some LP FMs have been licensed near the edges of the TSA, and on adjacent channels, that have caused interference in distant listening areas. For example, Canada has issued licenses for a boatload of LP FMs that have disrupted the signals of US FMs in Canadian markets. One example is the Gay-targeted LP FM on 104.1 in Toronto. At one time, WHTT had a significant group of listeners in TO. Not anymore.

I hope that answers some of your questions. I'm sure that more qualified people will chime in with modifications and or corrections as this thread continues.

 

[Yeziknoradio]

Re: Chaos Theory

RBO,
it's all about the money. Radio stations don't care where it comes from, as long as it comes through the door.

Not entirely true. If a radio station honestly believes that their main listenership will not travel to shop, the sales team may not wish to work with businesses that are "just outside"...

 

[Element9]

Radio advertising rates are based on ratings derived from surveying listeners in geographic zones defined by statistical information. Arbitron is the Big Daddy O' Ratings Companies in these here new-nited states. The geographic zones and population figures are determined by the US census, the federal government.

Yeah, I know, this is Radio 101 to some people. But if you're in Canada, you may not know these things, just as there are ratings nuances in Canada's BBM of which I'm ignorant.

The Arbitron geographic zones are defined as the Total Survey Area (TSA) and Metro Survey Area (MSA). The MSA is a smaller geographic area that almost always lies within the TSA, which is a larger geographic area. If this sounds basic, I apologize. I'm not trying to be patronizing.

In Western New York, the Buffalo-Niagara Falls market is comprised of two counties, Erie and Niagara, which constitute the Metro Survey Area or MSA.

The Total Survey Area, or TSA, is comprised of Chautauqua, Cattaraugus, Allegany, Wyoming, Genesee and Orleans counties. The MSA counties, Erie and Niagara, fall within the TSA.

This might be more easily understood by taking a quarter (US or Canadian, makes no difference), putting it on a paper and drawing an outline around it. Now, take a dime, put it inside the circle drawn around the quarter. Draw a circle outline around the dime. The Quarter circle is the TSA. The Dime circle is the MSA.

Listening habits and consumer buying and spending trends indicate that, almost without exception, consumers purchase items, such as refrigerators, stoves and furniture, from stores and retailers within a certain radius of their homes.

Look at your Quarter and Dime circles again.

While it's not unusual for shoppers from Olean (a city inside the TSA, but well outside the MSA) to travel to shopping malls in Buffalo suburbs such as Cheektowaga (Galleria) or Hamburg (McKinley Mall) to make purchases, it is not often the case that shoppers from Buffalo, Cheektowaga, Amherst, Hamburg, travel to Olean to purchase items. It happens, but it is the exception to the rule.

Sir Rox explained the structures and variables of advertising rates that would result by charging Buffalo rates in Olean and Olean rates in Buffalo.

Believe me, Entercom and Star are NOT going to alter their rates to accomodate Olean or Batavia advertisers. Ever. Nor would any other self-respecting Buffalo radio station do something as capricious.

These stations sell advertising based on the number of listeners in the MSA.

Listening and ratings for the TSA, and cities such as Olean, Batavia and Jamestown is icing on the cake, but TSA ratings are rarely used to make advertising purchases, because retailers and advertising agencies KNOW where their customers are and understand just how far those customers will drive to purchase the items advertised.

Yes, there are times when an ad agency places a time buy on Star or WGR in Buffalo, with their big signals, for chain stores in Olean or Batavia, for grand opeings and such, but it's the exception, not the rule. When this happens, the agency pays the "Buffalo" ad rate.

Yes, years ago, WMJQ-Rock 102 (now WTSS-Star 102.5) actively sold advertising in Canada. But this occured when the tax laws in your beautiful Dominion were substantially different than they are today.

Yes, stations such as Channel 29, 49 and 23 draw a respectable amount of business from Canadian advertisers, but the economic platform for TV advertising is much different than it is for radio advertising.

This thread and the original questions regarding ratings and advertising don't relate to Toronto as much as they relate to Olean, Batavia, Jamestown and cities in TSA counties such as Chautauqua, Cattaraugus, Allegany, Wyoming, Genesee and Orleans counties, which fall outside the MSA.

Getting back to RBO's hypothetical query, (I can't believe I've spent this much time on hypothetical issues, but it beats doing that brake job that I've been putting off for the last two weeks) the FM band in the states is allocated differently than in Canada. Yes, the 200 kHz spacing is the standard in both countries, but the FM band in the US allocates frequencies between 88.1 and 91.9 to non-commercial use only.

Giant FM, which has a strong signal on 91.9 in most areas of Western New York, is protected by treaty and operates legally in Canada and the US, even though it's in the non-com portion of the US FM band.

If Giant grabs big ratings in Bradford and/or Meadville, there's no way the FCC is going to allocate an FM in those cities to counter Giant's impact. Very much like Canada, where the CRTC regulates broadcasting, the FCC has strict rules and regulations regarding allocations and licensing. Giant's signal (and its listenership in Meadville) "is what it is." The station is licensed according to CRTC rules, which comply with the articles of treaties negotiated and approved by two sovereign nations.

-9-

 

[mdoyle]

Just a note, the allocation of frequencies on FM in the US has nothing to do with radio listening or predicted interference or lakes and mountains. The classes of station (A,B, C etc) have minimum mileage separation from tower to tower. For instance, the minimum distance from WFKL 93.3 FM and WNTQ in Syracuse must be 113 kilometers or 70 miles (A to B-WNTQ is actually a Class C but east of the missisippi it is only protected as a class B).

There is no reference in any of this to how many listeners a station has in any area. All of this is available at the FCC web site, look for the Part 73 Rules.

Bob Savage, who put WFKL on the air as The River must know a lot more about this than I do.

Just thought you all would want to know.

 

[Radio_bored-Op]

ty,
all the info was helpful...and factual !!
i apperciate it, as i sometimes have a
difficulty effectively, communicating by typing...
(or talking, writing an email, lol )

again , thx !