What if the virtual channel overlaps with the same real channel?

[vchimpanzee]

I was updating some Wikipedia articles and discovered that a channel near where I live is on channel 48 (not near enough that I can receive the digital signal, though under the right weather condtions I could pick up the analog channel). This channel likely overlaps quite a bit with a station still calling itself channel 48, and I get that channel by typing in "48" or clicking on the up arrow when I'm on channel 45.

This is an important issue because twice I've had to enter the "real" channel in order to pick up a station. Actually, for one of those cases, it's a lot more than twice since the converter box has never figured out the virtual channel for this station and still dispalys "No Signal" when I try to pick it up that way.

So what happens if one tries to turn to channel 48 in between these two stations?

 

[FreddyE1977]

Where I live, I am getting WPXI-TV, which is "virtual" Channel 11, transmitting on UHF 48.
I am also getting 11-2, which is their RTV multicast. Plus I am getting a channel which
appears as "RF 11", which is actually the local CW affiliate. They moved from UHF 19 analog to 11 digital moments after WPXI analog signed off. CW has not openly identified itself as "channel 19" for a long time. They were "Pittsburgh's UPN" and then "Pittsburgh's CW" after the merger. The analog UHF signal was actually a former Johnstown station that got a change in city of license.
The transmitter remained atop a hill 60 miles east of Pittsburgh, and relatively few people ever got it over the air. How they are going to resolve this when they never built any initial identity around "CW 19" will be interesting to watch.

 

[Markxxx]

It would depend on the tuner. I know someone in Delaware and when conditions are right he can get WCBS from NYC on virtual channel 2 and WMAR from Baltimore on virtual channel 2.

He just gets TWO channels marked 2.1 on on of his TVs.

His other TV has a different tuner and if he hits 2.1 he gets nothing, but if he enters the real channel number he can get them both that way.

 

[pabsungenis]

It would depend on the tuner. I know someone in Delaware and when conditions are right he can get WCBS from NYC on virtual channel 2 and WMAR from Baltimore on virtual channel 2.

He just gets TWO channels marked 2.1 on on of his TVs.

His other TV has a different tuner and if he hits 2.1 he gets nothing, but if he enters the real channel number he can get them both that way.

Interestingly, then, when the KJWY move is completed, he'll sometimes be able to get THREE channel 2.1's: New York, Wilmington, and Baltimore. It will really test the ability of some tuners.

 

[KML0224]

What do you mean by KJWY? The stations licensed to Delaware are WHYY-DT (PBS) of Wilmington, WPPX-DT (ION) of Wilmington and WDPB-DT (PBS) of Seaford.

Now then...my Sanyo 26" LCD HDTV and Insignia digital converter box (when hooked to compare the two tuners) map to the virtual channels like most TVs and boxes normally do. Here in Hartford/New Haven, two channels have their digital assignment on their old analog assignment:

WTXX-DT (CW) channel 20 Waterbury/Hartford
WHPX-DT (ION) channel 26 New London

WCTX-DT (MY) channel 39 of New Haven was on analog channel 59. However, they still ID themselves on air as "MY-TV 9" since most cable systems here put them on that channel. I'd like to see what they'll call themselves in a few years when most, if not all, analog cable lineups as we know it are gone?

 

[azumanga]

when the KJWY move is completed, he'll sometimes be able to get THREE channel 2.1's: New York, Wilmington, and Baltimore. It will really test the ability of some tuners.

Provided, of course, the station broadcasts on channel 2 and/or uses 2.1 as its PSIP -- it may be something completely different once it makes the move.

 

[azumanga]

What do you mean by KJWY? The stations licensed to Delaware are WHYY-DT (PBS) of Wilmington, WPPX-DT (ION) of Wilmington and WDPB-DT (PBS) of Seaford.

It's been reported here that a Wyoming station filed with the FCC to move the station to Wilmington. No doublt after the move is made it'll be assigned a set of "W" calls.

 

[KML0224]

I saw this on the Wiki page, when entering those call letters. Apparently, it was analog channel 2 in Jackson, WY, and ran with only 178 watts visual, and is/was a semi-satellite of KIVI-TV analog channel 6 of Idaho Falls/Pocatello, ID. My question here is...why would they move a station from western Wyoming to northern Delaware?

PMCM is seeking permission to reallocate KJWY from Jackson, WY to Wilmington, Delaware, as part of a legal loophole that allows any VHF station that moves to a state with no FCC-licensed commercial VHF stations to receive automatic permission to move. After of the digital television transition of 2009, Delaware and New Jersey no longer have VHF signals. (PMCM is also looking to buy KVNV and move it to New Jersey under the same rule.)[2] The move would make KJWY and KVNV two of only a handful of stations east of the Mississippi River to have a call sign starting with "K" instead of "W."

 

[willcail]

The problem is that if the stations uses their actual UHF/VHF channel people will start screaming that they lost their favorite channel. As we all know that the DTV tuners are able to map the real channel number to their PSIP ones.

I wish the DT stations will start using their actual VHF/UHF channels and explain to the people in plain English that they're the same stations. I know that WCMH broadcast on UHF14. The only station that broadcast on the same UHF channel number is WDEM in Columbus Ohio.

 

[w9wi]

I saw this on the Wiki page, when entering those call letters. Apparently, it was analog channel 2 in Jackson, WY, and ran with only 178 watts visual, and is/was a semi-satellite of KIVI-TV analog channel 6 of Idaho Falls/Pocatello, ID. My question here is...why would they move a station from western Wyoming to northern Delaware?

Because Philadelphia is market #4, while Idaho Falls is #163. (and the Jackson station, even if operated at full 100kw/600m power, would only cover a small fraction of the market)

A similar application has been filed to reallocate KVNV channel 3 from Ely, Nevada to a New Jersey township just outside NYC. (the transmitter would be in Manhattan)

 

[ajc_trw]

In Philadelphia WTXF uses 29.1, their old analog number (they're now on 42), even though UHF 29 is now used by WUVP (65.1) on a tower within walking distance of WTXF's stick.

I guess it really doesn't matter if all parties agree. However, last night WUTB's PSIP failed and showed up as 41.3 instead of 24.1 on my DTT901.

I think stations should have ushered in the new era of DTV with new channel numbers, if applicable. Especially since all channel numbers have the point as in 29.1 and aren't rounded off like before.

I personally think these channels will never get the point.

P.S.:It is possible to get the point! KAIL (Fresno, CA) moved from 53 to 7 and became not just channel 7 but My Digital 7.1 with Retro TV as 7.2. Fresno may be small (it was when I went to CSU Fresno) but they're smart!

 

[fybush]

This issue ("real" channel vs. virtual channel) has been popping up on this and other boards for the last few years, and the answer always comes back to business: there was no chance that broadcasters would sign on to the DTV transition if, for instance, WPVI in Philadelphia was able to continue branding as "channel 6" while arch-rivals KYW and WCAU became "26" and "34," respectively.

And as w9wi will shortly be along to point out, there's no such thing as a "real" RF channel, anyway. WTXF *is* on "channel 29" - it's just that "channel 29," at least in the context of Philadelphia, now refers to 638-644 MHz instead of 560-566 MHz. You never knew that virtual "channel 29" was 562 MHz in the analog world, and you don't need to know that it's 640 MHz in the digital world. (Or that it's 470-476 MHz in Buffalo, or that it's some 12 GHz channel on your DirecTV dish, or whatever.)

 

[w9wi]

And as w9wi will shortly be along to point out, there's no such thing as a "real" RF channel, anyway. WTXF *is* on "channel 29" - it's just that "channel 29," at least in the context of Philadelphia, now refers to 638-644 MHz instead of 560-566 MHz. You never knew that virtual "channel 29" was 562 MHz in the analog world, and you don't need to know that it's 640 MHz in the digital world. (Or that it's 470-476 MHz in Buffalo, or that it's some 12 GHz channel on your DirecTV dish, or whatever.)

(I don't have to point it out: Scott's beat me to it!)

 

[KML0224]

OK...but a viewer in Idaho or Wyoming isn't going to receive a TV signal from Philadelphia or New York. Strangely, I had never heard of anything like this until today. Changing one's city of license while staying within the same market? Yes. Besides, what network would these stations be with? Also, what say does the existing network affiliate have in a situation like this? ???

 

[fybush]

OK...but a viewer in Idaho or Wyoming isn't going to receive a TV signal from Philadelphia or New York. Strangely, I had never heard of anything like this until today. Changing one's city of license while staying within the same market? Yes. Besides, what network would these stations be with? Also, what say does the existing network affiliate have in a situation like this? ???

I think you're overthinking this. When/if the current KJWY and KVNV licenses are moved to Wilmington/Philadelphia and NJ/NYC, they'll effectively become new stations in those markets. I expect they'll use "2" and "3" as their virtual channels, because there's no reason for them not to (and some very good marketing reasons for them to do so), but they won't have network affiliations, since those are all spoken for, and then some, in both markets.

Meanwhile back in Wyoming and Nevada, the proposal to move the stations also includes the suggestion that the FCC might immediately allocate "new" stations on the current KJWY/KVNV facilities that would continue operating seamlessly on those channels, at least from the point of view of the viewers in those areas. This part of the proposal is more complicated, from a regulatory POV, than the initial proposal to move the licenses across the country.

 

[markwooldridge]

We have an interesting, albeit temporary situation here. WGHP is having some issues with VHF 8 and because it was feasible, the FCC granted temporary permission to re-start on UHF 35. The station is branded as "Fox 8", and was on VHF 8 in analog. Both the VHF and the UHF signals are putting out that they're 8-1. So as far as the receiver is concerned, it has two 8-1's... and depending on the set up they may handle them differently. The Magnavox and RCA converter boxes that were available at Wal-Mart both show two 8-1's. I've heard some other receivers put the first signal at 8-1, and the second one may get arbitrarily re-numbered higher up.

 

[MikeyBos]

Same thing here in Boston with WHDH which is broadcasting on both 7 and 42 right now due to signal/reception issues. WHDH's main channel is NBC while its sub-channel is This TV. Both sub-channels show up twice on my converter box, since I have no reception issues, and they all map to 7. So I get two 7.1s and two 7.2s. I just manually deleted the second set so it doesn't show up twice when I'm flipping through the channels.

We have an interesting, albeit temporary situation here. WGHP is having some issues with VHF 8 and because it was feasible, the FCC granted temporary permission to re-start on UHF 35. The station is branded as "Fox 8", and was on VHF 8 in analog. Both the VHF and the UHF signals are putting out that they're 8-1. So as far as the receiver is concerned, it has two 8-1's... and depending on the set up they may handle them differently. The Magnavox and RCA converter boxes that were available at Wal-Mart both show two 8-1's. I've heard some other receivers put the first signal at 8-1, and the second one may get arbitrarily re-numbered higher up.

 

[quadraphonic]

Same thing here in Boston with WHDH which is broadcasting on both 7 and 42 right now due to signal/reception issues. WHDH's main channel is NBC while its sub-channel is This TV. Both sub-channels show up twice on my converter box, since I have no reception issues, and they all map to 7. So I get two 7.1s and two 7.2s. I just manually deleted the second set so it doesn't show up twice when I'm flipping through the channels.

I saw that happen on a rescan the other day and was wondering how it was happening.

 

[Tim L]

The other day I got 2 signals on 4-1:WCMH Columbus (rf14) and WTAE Pittsburgh (rf51)..My location in Canton, Ohio is right in between both Pittsburgh and Columbus..

Another situation not directly related, but sort of, WOAC-TV 67 in Canton, Ohio was recently sold to TCT Christian TV of Marion, Ill..The closing was today, and TCT is actually dropping their virtual channel 67 in favor of digital RF Channel 47, as well as changing their call letters to WRLM-TV..In doing this, a 27 year history of channel 67 in Canton, Ohio effectively ended at about 1PM today..

 

[vchimpanzee]

Getting back to my original question ...

I watch My 48 more than any other channel on digital TV. It's actually on 33.1, but you don't have to know that.

But east of My 48 is WRAL, which is still said to be on channel 5. According to Wikipedia, it's actually at 48.1. So what happens if you can pick up both?

I mention this because threee times I've had to tune to the real channel. Actually, I've never received channel 2 on 2.1 on my first converter box, so it's every time I turn to channel 2, I have to turn to 51.1. Channel 2 works on my second converter box, which wouldn't pick up channel 20.1 until I turned to 19.1.

And referring to Mark Wooldridge's post, I couldn't pick up channel 8.1. But when they got temporary permission to return to 35.1, I could pick it up on 35.1.

Last night I had to rescan, though, and 8.1 shows up on 8.1.