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What if we still had the old FM band today?

What If

Starting 2010 ..most of the FM/AM band would go away like TV, but..the thing is woulld everyone is listing to Music, Sports, News & Weather on there Ipods, Pandora & the Internet

The FM/AM band would be for local community, it could happen
 
w9wi said:
trusty said:
At the risk of getting more off-topic, but only for a quick answer, how is Canada moving its AMs to FMs?

Canada doesn't have a formal program for doing that. (Mexico does, but I think it would be safest for me to defer to David Eduardo for details)

About two years ago, Mexico's equivalent of Congress passed a bill which said, in about 10,000 times as many words, that AM was increasingly less and less economically viable and that to protect the licensees of AM, the jobs of the employees, and the diversity for listeners, a system would be developed to move as many AMs to FMs as possible. And, of course, the licensees would pay a tax on the "gain in value" of the FM license vs. the AM.

The country was divided into regions. In some, as many as 100% of AMs can move, while in others less than half can due to either already crowded FM dials in some places or proximity to the US border. The regions would be processed at intervals of 4 to 6 months, starting with the one made up of Yucatan, Quintana Roo, Campeche and Tabasco.

All the procedures have been completed in the first zone, where 100% of AMs will move, and then turn the AM off. AM frequencies thus vacated will not be relicensed as has occured in Canada in some cases.

It looks like about 75% of Mexican AM's will be gone.

Elsewhere in Latin America, the number of AMs is declining, generally for economic reasons. For example, in El Salvador, where FM is thriving, about half the AMs are silent, and about half the remaining ones are now religious.
 
DavidEduardo said:
For example, in El Salvador, where FM is thriving, about half the AMs are silent, and about half the remaining ones are now religious.

Which sounds awfully familiar :)

So literally everyone in Mexico can afford both the tax and the new equipment to go FM? I guess I'd think if that law were adopted here, we'd see at least a few stations unable to pay for the upgrade.
 
The FM band does extend to 76 in other countries, so manufacturing is not a problem.

If TV had used AM audio (instead of FM) no would have noticed until either (1) the late 70s, when most people got used to FM sounds or (2) the early 80s since AT&T put network audio on AM quality lines anyway (TV sounded way different in NYC).

I say the FCC should: (1) Expand the FM band. (2) Make the expanded portion all digital; phase out analog on existing stations and then improve digital signals. (3) Require all new receivers to be all-digital and capable of receiving the expanded FM band. (4) Shut down all Class C and D AM stations; give licensees the opportunity to move to the expanded FM band. (5) Upgrade AM standards and increase power for remaining AM stations to operate as regional superstations, originating all their own programming. Keep AM analog; no IBOC.
 
MattParker said:
I say the FCC should: (1) Expand the FM band. (2) Make the expanded portion all digital; phase out analog on existing stations and then improve digital signals. (3) Require all new receivers to be all-digital and capable of receiving the expanded FM band. (4) Shut down all Class C and D AM stations; give licensees the opportunity to move to the expanded FM band. (5) Upgrade AM standards and increase power for remaining AM stations to operate as regional superstations, originating all their own programming. Keep AM analog; no IBOC.

Let's say you're a small AM owner who poured your life savings into your station, and the gov't says you can have a station in a new expanded FM band. Except no one has a radio to hear it, and estimates are it will take ten years before 25% of the audience owns a radio that can hear your new FM station, and maybe 20 years before you gain parity with what you have now. What would you do?

The government has made its decision on this, and Obama himself made a about it just the other day. He wants high speed wireless for 98% of the country. He is giving the FCC $5 billion to spend to get it done. No one at the FCC is interested in fixing broadcasting. That day is long gone.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/us/politics/11obama.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=obama%20internet&st=cse
 
I say make the conversion slow, keep the AM on until the X-FM band gets enough receivers. I say no however to making it be digital, I see no advantage to that, they can have the option to be completely digital, but no IBOC. They'd either be digital or analog no in between.
 
TheBigA said:
Let's say you're a small AM owner who poured your life savings into your station...

There is no such thing. The local owners back in the day almost always had some other businesses going ... car dealership, local newspaper, stores... Or they were wealthy enough to afford a "hobby station." Nobody "poured their life savings" into a radio station, certainly not with the FCC's financial requirements for licensees.

And these local owners sold out to Lowry Mays, et al years ago.

We have a broken and obsolete system. It needs to be fixed and overhauled. I am not going to feel sorry for some local Babbit or for some little old lady who is confused and doesn't want to buy a new receiver.

These little Class C and D stations put on the air after World War II so every small town and suburb could have it's own "voice" are a waste. All they do is cause interference for real radio stations. Besides, even in those small towns and suburbs, nobody is listening to the local weak stick any more.
 
MattParker said:
And these local owners sold out to Lowry Mays, et al years ago.

You'd be surprised. Actually CC sold a few of their stations back to some former employees. But that's not who I'm talking about. There are thousands of little podunk stations that are still owned by moms and pops. These are single station AMs in the boonies. And they would be killed by your idea.

MattParker said:
We have a broken and obsolete system. It needs to be fixed and overhauled.

The time for that has passed. The current generation thinks you can't fix it. The future is already here...you just need to make it available to more people. I'm not saying you're wrong...just that the people who are in charge aren't even thinking about fixing a broken system. That's not on their radar. These are the people who say "let the dinosaurs huddle among themselves for warmth."
 
TheBigA said:
MattParker said:
And these local owners sold out to Lowry Mays, et al years ago.

You'd be surprised. Actually CC sold a few of their stations back to some former employees. But that's not who I'm talking about. There are thousands of little podunk stations that are still owned by moms and pops. These are single station AMs in the boonies. And they would be killed by your idea.

MattParker said:
We have a broken and obsolete system. It needs to be fixed and overhauled.

The time for that has passed. The current generation thinks you can't fix it. The future is already here...you just need to make it available to more people. I'm not saying you're wrong...just that the people who are in charge aren't even thinking about fixing a broken system. That's not on their radar. These are the people who say "let the dinosaurs huddle among themselves for warmth."

Whatever it is, I say "up" and you say "down." Still sounds like mom and pop are going to lose their life savings in any case.

Yes, I think the system could be fixed but the FCC probably won't because mom and pop will write their congressman. I think railroads could be fixed, too, and that technology is even older.
 
MattParker said:
The FM band does extend to 76 in other countries, so manufacturing is not a problem.

And sometimes it's serendipitous. I bought an Aiwa portable that can be changed to tune for Japan. Press and hold auto preset and tuning up changes the tuner to get 76-108MHz.

I'd be surprised if more receivers can't do this.
 
TheBigA said:
MarioMania said:
Would the FCC expand the FM band to 76 - 108 Mhz??

Who's using Analog 2 - 6 besides low power stations??

Doesn't matter. This FCC is not going to give away spectrum space to profit-making companies.
Don't bet the ranch on that. It wasn't that long ago they gave away a good sizaable chunk of the 220 Mhz. Ham Radio band to UPS
If they expand FM down to 76 (and so far they've shown no interest in doing so), it will be reserved for minorities. Then the lawsuits begin over who is a minority. In the meantime, unless they mandate including 76-87 mhz in all new radios, no one will be able to hear the new stations, just like HD.
If only you had a little something called FACTS to back any of these claims up.....

First off, while it's true that they've not shown any interest in expanding the FM band to 76 Mhz., the truth is the FCC considers spectrum to be something that's auctionable. That's because they feel that radio spectrum sold to the highest bidder will help pay off the National Debt (Don't ask me how they figure this. All I know is they do).

That said though, my opinion is that they will expand the FM broadcast band. They're gonna have to at the rate they're licensing FM radio stations (And refusing to take down stations unworthy of holding a license out of fear of being sued). One needn't look any further than all the radio stations popping up on frequencies occupied by the old TV Channel 6 as an example of this.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if a few commercialized Channel 6 TV stations in some cities/towns either started or moved a radio station to that very spot in an effort to keep their viewers as listeners similar to what the CBS O&O stations in New York, LA, Chicago, Boston & Philly have done for years (Although of course all of those radio stations are on AM & none of the TV stations were on Channel 6)

Just my opinion though.....

Cheers :D
 
Pat Cook said:
Don't bet the ranch on that. It wasn't that long ago they gave away a good sizaable chunk of the 220 Mhz. Ham Radio band to UPS

That was over 20 years ago. This FCC is in the sales business. Everything is for sale. I'm surprised they haven't sold all of the ham band.

By the way, UPS hardly ever used the 220 mhz, and I bet it could be bought...if the price is right.
 
Pat Cook said:
First off, while it's true that they've not shown any interest in expanding the FM band to 76 Mhz., the truth is the FCC considers spectrum to be something that's auctionable. That's because they feel that radio spectrum sold to the highest bidder will help pay off the National Debt (Don't ask me how they figure this. All I know is they do).

Well, really it's Congress that considers spectrum to be auctionable. (several Congresses ago, I don't remember which party was in charge & it really doesn't matter) They ordered the FCC to use auctions to allot spectrum for commercial use. At least in the broadcasting service, they're collecting significantly more than they take in in license fees.

That said though, my opinion is that they will expand the FM broadcast band. They're gonna have to at the rate they're licensing FM radio stations (And refusing to take down stations unworthy of holding a license out of fear of being sued). One needn't look any further than all the radio stations popping up on frequencies occupied by the old TV Channel 6 as an example of this.

I'd be willing to bet (but not too much$$) that they won't expand it.

First & foremost, because they want to free up UHF-TV spectrum for mobile devices. (they feel there's significantly more demand for that. In order to obtain 35MHz of spectrum for mobile devices, Nextel was willing to replace nearly all the non-satellite gear used by TV stations to pickup live remotes. There are over 1,000 TV stations, with a typical station having ten transmitters & 3-5 receivers. Not to mention control systems & labor for installation. Nextel spent a LOT of money for that 35MHz!)

What does that have to do with channels 5 & 6? If the FM BCB were to expand into 76-88MHz, the TV stations currently operating there would need to move to new channels. Those channels would almost certainly be UHF -- and that UHF spectrum would no longer be auctionable for use by mobile devices. 6MHz of auctionable spectrum would be lost in the busy New York-Philadelphia corridor, putting a huge hole in the Commission's mobile device plans.

Secondly, the Commission seems to feel broadcasting is on its way out. They seem to feel streaming over mobile devices is the future of media. You may disagree (I do) but when it comes to spectrum decisions, what matters is what the Commission feels *now*. Doing anything for radio at the potential expense of mobile devices is not going to happen.

Thirdly, the industry isn't interested. They fought tooth-and-nail against LPFM and Eureka DAB. The latter fight was IMHO primarily spurred by the fear of massive additional competition from the new stations made possible by DAB multicasting. The former fight is nearly impossible to explain any other way. They won't stand for creation of additional FM signals. Doesn't matter if they'd all replace existing AM operations. (which could go from being competitive non-entities to being potentially fully-competitive FM stations) Doesn't matter if they'd all be non-commercial. (so is LPFM)

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if a few commercialized Channel 6 TV stations in some cities/towns either started or moved a radio station to that very spot in an effort to keep their viewers as listeners similar to what the CBS O&O stations in New York, LA, Chicago, Boston & Philly have done for years (Although of course all of those radio stations are on AM & none of the TV stations were on Channel 6)

I *really* doubt any of the TV-6 stations that were promoting themselves as 87.7FM were pulling enough audience that way to cover the costs of operating the transmitter. It was a nice bonus audience, not something you could make a living on.
 
KeithE4 said:
Bob1370 said:
Come to think of it, since, 1) we've cleared all the analog signals away and have a chance to redraw the VHF and UHF spectra, 2) most viewing right now is off cable or satellite, and 3) we need to clear out a lot of spectrum for broadband internet service while still providing signals to the 20-25% of people who get their TV through some kind of over-the-air service and always will, why don't we just push all the former VHF stations back to their old bands again with the power levels they used to run or higher, and move all other stations into the new channels we'd be creating below 300 mHz? We'd presumably do a new round of converter-box credits to help people retrofit their TVs, and give people and stations a set amount of time to move to the new all-VHF broadcast TV system before opening up the entire 400-800 mHz spectrum to broadband...

Because the 225-450 MHz spectrum is controlled by the US Government (military, radio-location, space research, weather, with ham radio sharing the top 30 MHz). Don't hold your breath waiting for the Feds to move out of there.
And the Amateur Radio 70 cm (420-450 Mhz) band was spared the axe thanks to an ammendment to the pending legislation that would've killed our prescence there without it
Same goes with an earlier mention of 109-129 MHz. That's part of the aircraft band and it's about as close to sacred as any band of frequencies can get. That service ain't goin' nowhere!
I think the aircraft/aviation band has always been there since after WWII, has it not? Perhaps someone with some knowledge in this area can chime in? ;D
It's a little too late to rearrange the spectrum.
Congressman Peter King's pending legislation proposes to do just that for Public Safety & other first responders

Cheers :D
 
ajc_trw said:
MattParker said:
The FM band does extend to 76 in other countries, so manufacturing is not a problem.

And sometimes it's serendipitous. I bought an Aiwa portable that can be changed to tune for Japan. Press and hold auto preset and tuning up changes the tuner to get 76-108MHz.

I'd be surprised if more receivers can't do this.
My ICOM IC 706 MKII-G Ham Radio not only picks up the FM broadcast band but has UNINTERRUPTED coverage between it & the 6 meter Ham band to boot

Cheers & 73 :D
 
TheBigA said:
Pat Cook said:
Don't bet the ranch on that. It wasn't that long ago they gave away a good sizaable chunk of the 220 Mhz. Ham Radio band to UPS

That was over 20 years ago. This FCC is in the sales business. Everything is for sale. I'm surprised they haven't sold all of the ham band.
That's true.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that UPS has more drivers who are Hams that spend more time chewing the rag on local repeaters than UPS itself does in using the 220 Mhz. spectrum they ROBBED from us too (to those drivers who are Hams, they might wanna tell their bosses to WATCH OUT !!! ):mad:
By the way, UPS hardly ever used the 220 mhz, and I bet it could be bought...if the price is right.
If not returned back to us Hams.....

Cheers :D
 
MarioMania said:
Well does station on 87.75 like K-love in San Jose & Sports 87 in Denver get Ratings??
87.7 here in Denver is now ESPN Desportes Radio while The Ticket has moved to 102.3

Cheers :D
 
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