K
kzrockwell
Guest
Could you folks explain what IBOC is?
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K
k9ez
Guest
K
kilowatt
Guest
A reason for listeners to buy XM and Sirius
> Could you folks explain what IBOC is?
>
A new product that doesn't work well. Receivers not available and one station in Indy had to install large outdoor antennas recently to receive their 50kw equivilant IBOC singal from not 10 miles away.
Expensive product that doesn't yet work or have an FCC mandate. AM stereo in the new millenium. No reason to install them as no clear timetable exists.
Expensive for stations with no reason to install because lsiteners aren't there. Why not put a new format on the SCA?
Software and Licensing too expensive for small stations. Equipment too expensvive to make the product widely available.
> Could you folks explain what IBOC is?
>
A new product that doesn't work well. Receivers not available and one station in Indy had to install large outdoor antennas recently to receive their 50kw equivilant IBOC singal from not 10 miles away.
Expensive product that doesn't yet work or have an FCC mandate. AM stereo in the new millenium. No reason to install them as no clear timetable exists.
Expensive for stations with no reason to install because lsiteners aren't there. Why not put a new format on the SCA?
Software and Licensing too expensive for small stations. Equipment too expensvive to make the product widely available.
> Could you folks explain what IBOC is?
IBOC is a system for transmitting digital radio over the same center frequency as the associated analog station. It puts the digital information in the "guard bands" between stations, more or less.
(IBOC = "In Band On Channel", meaning the digital is transmitted in the same 530-1700 or 87.9-107.9 band as the analog, and on the same center frequency as the analog. As opposed to European digital radio, which is in completely different frequency bands. And as opposed to U.S. digital television, which is transmitted in the same frequency bands but on different specific frequencies.)
(IBOC is also known as "HD Radio", the latter term will probably be better known to consumers)
Besides the ability to transmit the existing program in digital mode, IBOC also offers additional program streams -- the ability to transmit more than one program over the same frequency at the same time. It looks like two full-quality stereo and one restricted-fidelity mono programs are about the limit right now.
It's somewhat controversial as it threatens to cause ruinous interference in some (many) cases. The digital signal spreads out 0.2MHz either side of FM stations and 15KHz either side of AMs. Because of the interference, the FCC currently doesn't allow HD operation on AM at night.
(there is already significant interference during the day though. On FM "rimshotting" stations - stations whose coverage nicks a city from the suburbs - are at risk; I fear two stations with unique formats are likely to be lost here if nearby-on-the-dial stations go HD...)
IBOC is a system for transmitting digital radio over the same center frequency as the associated analog station. It puts the digital information in the "guard bands" between stations, more or less.
(IBOC = "In Band On Channel", meaning the digital is transmitted in the same 530-1700 or 87.9-107.9 band as the analog, and on the same center frequency as the analog. As opposed to European digital radio, which is in completely different frequency bands. And as opposed to U.S. digital television, which is transmitted in the same frequency bands but on different specific frequencies.)
(IBOC is also known as "HD Radio", the latter term will probably be better known to consumers)
Besides the ability to transmit the existing program in digital mode, IBOC also offers additional program streams -- the ability to transmit more than one program over the same frequency at the same time. It looks like two full-quality stereo and one restricted-fidelity mono programs are about the limit right now.
It's somewhat controversial as it threatens to cause ruinous interference in some (many) cases. The digital signal spreads out 0.2MHz either side of FM stations and 15KHz either side of AMs. Because of the interference, the FCC currently doesn't allow HD operation on AM at night.
(there is already significant interference during the day though. On FM "rimshotting" stations - stations whose coverage nicks a city from the suburbs - are at risk; I fear two stations with unique formats are likely to be lost here if nearby-on-the-dial stations go HD...)
M
Musicradio
Guest
Re: A reason for listeners to buy XM and Sirius
It's still being developed.
It'll kick XM and Sirius out of the game, right???
(I guess I'm not a "Bird" listener)
It's still being developed.
It'll kick XM and Sirius out of the game, right???
(I guess I'm not a "Bird" listener)
K
k9ez
Guest
Re: A reason for listeners to buy XM and Sirius
> > Could you folks explain what IBOC is?
> >
> A new product that doesn't work well. Receivers not
> available and one station in Indy had to install large
> outdoor antennas recently to receive their 50kw equivilant
> IBOC singal from not 10 miles away.
>
> Expensive product that doesn't yet work or have an FCC
> mandate. AM stereo in the new millenium. No reason to
> install them as no clear timetable exists.
>
> Expensive for stations with no reason to install because
> lsiteners aren't there. Why not put a new format on the SCA?
>
>
> Software and Licensing too expensive for small stations.
> Equipment too expensvive to make the product widely
> available.
>
Doesnt work well? At least for FM I have been listening for about 2 months. Works just fine. If the station could not received their 50kW signal 10 miles away, they have MAJOR issues! Basically the FM HD signal is equivent to the Grade A signal. I can get our HD Signal 45 miles away (Class B).
Of course the listeners arent there yet. XM and Sirus had to put up their sginals before they had listeners didnt they? HD Radio is at the same point as that.
Also, the HD Radio sound sounds much better to my ears than XM.
Receviers are already below the $300 level. Too expensive for Joe Lunchbox? Yes they are, but that will come down. My understanding is that there is a big shipment of HD Radio coming over from China as we speak doe to be here in September...just in time for Christmas.
SCA -- the audio quality off of SCA is for voice grade only. Not a real good use of the spectrum IMHO.
Also HD Radio will be able to offer two (perhaps three) different stations on the same frequncy. Chicagos WNUA-FM is doing that now, with smooth jazz on the main channel, mainstream Jazz on HD-2 and NOAA weather on HD-3.
> > Could you folks explain what IBOC is?
> >
> A new product that doesn't work well. Receivers not
> available and one station in Indy had to install large
> outdoor antennas recently to receive their 50kw equivilant
> IBOC singal from not 10 miles away.
>
> Expensive product that doesn't yet work or have an FCC
> mandate. AM stereo in the new millenium. No reason to
> install them as no clear timetable exists.
>
> Expensive for stations with no reason to install because
> lsiteners aren't there. Why not put a new format on the SCA?
>
>
> Software and Licensing too expensive for small stations.
> Equipment too expensvive to make the product widely
> available.
>
Doesnt work well? At least for FM I have been listening for about 2 months. Works just fine. If the station could not received their 50kW signal 10 miles away, they have MAJOR issues! Basically the FM HD signal is equivent to the Grade A signal. I can get our HD Signal 45 miles away (Class B).
Of course the listeners arent there yet. XM and Sirus had to put up their sginals before they had listeners didnt they? HD Radio is at the same point as that.
Also, the HD Radio sound sounds much better to my ears than XM.
Receviers are already below the $300 level. Too expensive for Joe Lunchbox? Yes they are, but that will come down. My understanding is that there is a big shipment of HD Radio coming over from China as we speak doe to be here in September...just in time for Christmas.
SCA -- the audio quality off of SCA is for voice grade only. Not a real good use of the spectrum IMHO.
Also HD Radio will be able to offer two (perhaps three) different stations on the same frequncy. Chicagos WNUA-FM is doing that now, with smooth jazz on the main channel, mainstream Jazz on HD-2 and NOAA weather on HD-3.
K
kzrockwell
Guest
Thanks, I take it all stations can retrofit with IBOC and in small station instances , they can increase distance for broadcasts in IBOC vs. regular without having problems with channel separation( 1st. adjacent , etc.)?<P ID="signature">______________
It's not the size of the tower.....
It's how you use it.</P>
It's not the size of the tower.....
It's how you use it.</P>
S
SamBuca
Guest
> Could you folks explain what IBOC is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBOC<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBOC<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
K
kilowatt
Guest
Re: A reason for listeners to buy XM and Sirius
What do we do to make this something all stations can afford?
How do we keep this from being AM stereo?
The FCC can agree on implementing Sirius and XM that works on a car radio, why not HD?
> > > Could you folks explain what IBOC is?
> > >
> > A new product that doesn't work well. Receivers not
> > available and one station in Indy had to install large
> > outdoor antennas recently to receive their 50kw equivilant
>
> > IBOC singal from not 10 miles away.
> >
> > Expensive product that doesn't yet work or have an FCC
> > mandate. AM stereo in the new millenium. No reason to
> > install them as no clear timetable exists.
> >
> > Expensive for stations with no reason to install because
> > lsiteners aren't there. Why not put a new format on the
> SCA?
> >
> >
> > Software and Licensing too expensive for small stations.
> > Equipment too expensvive to make the product widely
> > available.
> >
>
>
> Doesnt work well? At least for FM I have been listening for
> about 2 months. Works just fine. If the station could not
> received their 50kW signal 10 miles away, they have MAJOR
> issues! Basically the FM HD signal is equivent to the Grade
> A signal. I can get our HD Signal 45 miles away (Class B).
>
> Of course the listeners arent there yet. XM and Sirus had
> to put up their sginals before they had listeners didnt
> they? HD Radio is at the same point as that.
>
> Also, the HD Radio sound sounds much better to my ears than
> XM.
>
> Receviers are already below the $300 level. Too expensive
> for Joe Lunchbox? Yes they are, but that will come down.
> My understanding is that there is a big shipment of HD Radio
> coming over from China as we speak doe to be here in
> September...just in time for Christmas.
>
> SCA -- the audio quality off of SCA is for voice grade only.
> Not a real good use of the spectrum IMHO.
>
> Also HD Radio will be able to offer two (perhaps three)
> different stations on the same frequncy. Chicagos WNUA-FM
> is doing that now, with smooth jazz on the main channel,
> mainstream Jazz on HD-2 and NOAA weather on HD-3.
>
What do we do to make this something all stations can afford?
How do we keep this from being AM stereo?
The FCC can agree on implementing Sirius and XM that works on a car radio, why not HD?
> > > Could you folks explain what IBOC is?
> > >
> > A new product that doesn't work well. Receivers not
> > available and one station in Indy had to install large
> > outdoor antennas recently to receive their 50kw equivilant
>
> > IBOC singal from not 10 miles away.
> >
> > Expensive product that doesn't yet work or have an FCC
> > mandate. AM stereo in the new millenium. No reason to
> > install them as no clear timetable exists.
> >
> > Expensive for stations with no reason to install because
> > lsiteners aren't there. Why not put a new format on the
> SCA?
> >
> >
> > Software and Licensing too expensive for small stations.
> > Equipment too expensvive to make the product widely
> > available.
> >
>
>
> Doesnt work well? At least for FM I have been listening for
> about 2 months. Works just fine. If the station could not
> received their 50kW signal 10 miles away, they have MAJOR
> issues! Basically the FM HD signal is equivent to the Grade
> A signal. I can get our HD Signal 45 miles away (Class B).
>
> Of course the listeners arent there yet. XM and Sirus had
> to put up their sginals before they had listeners didnt
> they? HD Radio is at the same point as that.
>
> Also, the HD Radio sound sounds much better to my ears than
> XM.
>
> Receviers are already below the $300 level. Too expensive
> for Joe Lunchbox? Yes they are, but that will come down.
> My understanding is that there is a big shipment of HD Radio
> coming over from China as we speak doe to be here in
> September...just in time for Christmas.
>
> SCA -- the audio quality off of SCA is for voice grade only.
> Not a real good use of the spectrum IMHO.
>
> Also HD Radio will be able to offer two (perhaps three)
> different stations on the same frequncy. Chicagos WNUA-FM
> is doing that now, with smooth jazz on the main channel,
> mainstream Jazz on HD-2 and NOAA weather on HD-3.
>
K
k9ez
Guest
Re: A reason for listeners to buy XM and Sirius
> What do we do to make this something all stations can
> afford?
Hmm I guess not all stations will be able to do IBOC.
>
> How do we keep this from being AM stereo?
Well one big difference is that FM is involved. That ough to help. Stations running it need to PROMOTE PROMOTE PROMOTE (since ibiquity will not sheeesh )
>
> The FCC can agree on implementing Sirius and XM that works
> on a car radio, why not HD?
>
There are far more people involved with HD. XM and Sirius can run their own proprietary signals. Though many consider IBOC to be proprietary, the FCC needs to look at the whole marketplace, unlike XM and Sirius.
HD does work on a car radio. We just need the radios to be here. All in good time. BMW is offering HD on their 2006 cars, I am sure others will follow.
> What do we do to make this something all stations can
> afford?
Hmm I guess not all stations will be able to do IBOC.
>
> How do we keep this from being AM stereo?
Well one big difference is that FM is involved. That ough to help. Stations running it need to PROMOTE PROMOTE PROMOTE (since ibiquity will not sheeesh )
>
> The FCC can agree on implementing Sirius and XM that works
> on a car radio, why not HD?
>
There are far more people involved with HD. XM and Sirius can run their own proprietary signals. Though many consider IBOC to be proprietary, the FCC needs to look at the whole marketplace, unlike XM and Sirius.
HD does work on a car radio. We just need the radios to be here. All in good time. BMW is offering HD on their 2006 cars, I am sure others will follow.
S
SamBuca
Guest
> It looks like two full-quality
> stereo and one restricted-fidelity mono programs are about
> the limit right now.
96k total throughput on a standard 400khz antenna. One 96 or 48+48 or 32+32+32.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
> stereo and one restricted-fidelity mono programs are about
> the limit right now.
96k total throughput on a standard 400khz antenna. One 96 or 48+48 or 32+32+32.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
K
k9ez
Guest
> > frequency at the same time. It looks like two
> full-quality
> > stereo and one restricted-fidelity mono programs are about
>
> > the limit right now.
>
> Where "full-quality" is taken VERY loosely...
>
> Regards,
> Goran Tomas
>
Have you heard an HD station running all three channels? People I have played it for were rather surprised at the quality. Still an imporvement over analog FM
> full-quality
> > stereo and one restricted-fidelity mono programs are about
>
> > the limit right now.
>
> Where "full-quality" is taken VERY loosely...
>
> Regards,
> Goran Tomas
>
Have you heard an HD station running all three channels? People I have played it for were rather surprised at the quality. Still an imporvement over analog FM
> Have you heard an HD station running all three channels?
> People I have played it for were rather surprised at the
> quality. Still an imporvement over analog FM
Judging from the reaction we've had in television, I think some people are very sensitive to compression artifacts. It must be a psychological thing.
> People I have played it for were rather surprised at the
> quality. Still an imporvement over analog FM
Judging from the reaction we've had in television, I think some people are very sensitive to compression artifacts. It must be a psychological thing.
> Thanks, I take it all stations can retrofit with IBOC and in
> small station instances , they can increase distance for
> broadcasts in IBOC vs. regular without having problems with
> channel separation( 1st. adjacent , etc.)?
Not 100% certain I understand what you're asking but...
- Adding IBOC does not at the current time change the separation, either in distance or frequency, required by the FCC to protect other stations from interference.
- Adding IBOC does not at the current time improve the coverage of a station. (on the 99.9999% of receivers that only get the analog signal, IBOC has no effect on coverage. Evidence seems to suggest that the coverage on digital receivers, in the current hybrid mode, is worse than that of the analog signal. Though the quality of the audio, within that smaller coverage area, is a lot better.)
> small station instances , they can increase distance for
> broadcasts in IBOC vs. regular without having problems with
> channel separation( 1st. adjacent , etc.)?
Not 100% certain I understand what you're asking but...
- Adding IBOC does not at the current time change the separation, either in distance or frequency, required by the FCC to protect other stations from interference.
- Adding IBOC does not at the current time improve the coverage of a station. (on the 99.9999% of receivers that only get the analog signal, IBOC has no effect on coverage. Evidence seems to suggest that the coverage on digital receivers, in the current hybrid mode, is worse than that of the analog signal. Though the quality of the audio, within that smaller coverage area, is a lot better.)
Re: A reason for listeners to buy XM and Sirius
> It's still being developed.
>
> It'll kick XM and Sirius out of the game, right???
If I had XM/Sirius stock I wouldn't be worried about HD. For the upfront price of a HD radio you can get a satellite receiver and well over a year of service.
For your money, you get:
- Many more formats. (even if every station in Nashville were to run three subchannels, satellite would have more than twice as many choices)
- Fewer commercials. Most channels on satellite are commercial-free. That may also be true of HD subchannels for the time being, but only on less-popular formats, and it won't stay that way for long.
- Stations that work everywhere, not just within 40 miles of major cities.
> It's still being developed.
>
> It'll kick XM and Sirius out of the game, right???
If I had XM/Sirius stock I wouldn't be worried about HD. For the upfront price of a HD radio you can get a satellite receiver and well over a year of service.
For your money, you get:
- Many more formats. (even if every station in Nashville were to run three subchannels, satellite would have more than twice as many choices)
- Fewer commercials. Most channels on satellite are commercial-free. That may also be true of HD subchannels for the time being, but only on less-popular formats, and it won't stay that way for long.
- Stations that work everywhere, not just within 40 miles of major cities.
> Thanks, I take it all stations can retrofit with IBOC and in
> small station instances , they can increase distance for
> broadcasts in IBOC vs. regular without having problems with
> channel separation( 1st. adjacent , etc.)?
>
Actually, small stations are likely to suffer the most. IBOC has sidebands which are clearly audible on the station's adjacent channels. They sound like a loud hiss. These sidebands shouldn't cause many problems (if any) within a station's "protected contour" but most stations are received way past that geographic limit. In the area between the protected contours of two adjacent channel stations there will be interference. The stronger station will most likely win.
Broadcasters whom I have talked to, that have gone IBOC, report that the HD signal does not go as far as their analog signal, however it remains robust until such time as it becomes unreceivable. Most say it covers about 85% of their usual analog coverage area. That is anicdotal evidence - YMMV. With digital broadcasting, you either can receive the signal, or you can't. With analog, there are areas where a weak signal is still listenable, even if it is a bit noisy.
> small station instances , they can increase distance for
> broadcasts in IBOC vs. regular without having problems with
> channel separation( 1st. adjacent , etc.)?
>
Actually, small stations are likely to suffer the most. IBOC has sidebands which are clearly audible on the station's adjacent channels. They sound like a loud hiss. These sidebands shouldn't cause many problems (if any) within a station's "protected contour" but most stations are received way past that geographic limit. In the area between the protected contours of two adjacent channel stations there will be interference. The stronger station will most likely win.
Broadcasters whom I have talked to, that have gone IBOC, report that the HD signal does not go as far as their analog signal, however it remains robust until such time as it becomes unreceivable. Most say it covers about 85% of their usual analog coverage area. That is anicdotal evidence - YMMV. With digital broadcasting, you either can receive the signal, or you can't. With analog, there are areas where a weak signal is still listenable, even if it is a bit noisy.
> > Thanks, I take it all stations can retrofit with IBOC and
> in
> > small station instances , they can increase distance for
> > broadcasts in IBOC vs. regular without having problems
> with
> > channel separation( 1st. adjacent , etc.)?
>
> Not 100% certain I understand what you're asking but...
>
> - Adding IBOC does not at the current time change the
> separation, either in distance or frequency, required by the
> FCC to protect other stations from interference.
>
> - Adding IBOC does not at the current time improve the
> coverage of a station. (on the 99.9999% of receivers that
> only get the analog signal, IBOC has no effect on coverage.
> Evidence seems to suggest that the coverage on digital
> receivers, in the current hybrid mode, is worse than that of
> the analog signal. Though the quality of the audio, within
> that smaller coverage area, is a lot better.)
>
So if KDIS's analog signal on 1110 kHz is pretty much unreadable because of a very strong local on 1130, getting a HD radio wouldn't help me hear their IBOC signal?
> in
> > small station instances , they can increase distance for
> > broadcasts in IBOC vs. regular without having problems
> with
> > channel separation( 1st. adjacent , etc.)?
>
> Not 100% certain I understand what you're asking but...
>
> - Adding IBOC does not at the current time change the
> separation, either in distance or frequency, required by the
> FCC to protect other stations from interference.
>
> - Adding IBOC does not at the current time improve the
> coverage of a station. (on the 99.9999% of receivers that
> only get the analog signal, IBOC has no effect on coverage.
> Evidence seems to suggest that the coverage on digital
> receivers, in the current hybrid mode, is worse than that of
> the analog signal. Though the quality of the audio, within
> that smaller coverage area, is a lot better.)
>
So if KDIS's analog signal on 1110 kHz is pretty much unreadable because of a very strong local on 1130, getting a HD radio wouldn't help me hear their IBOC signal?
A JOKE
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I even waited 2 days to see if it would pass.
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I even waited 2 days to see if it would pass.
> So if KDIS's analog signal on 1110 kHz is pretty much
> unreadable because of a very strong local on 1130, getting a
> HD radio wouldn't help me hear their IBOC signal?
Y'know, that's a good question. I'm pretty sure the upper and lower digital sidebands *are* redundant, in which case you do stand a pretty good chance of getting KDIS-HD. But I'm not 100% certain about that redundancy. It's not totally clear from the documents I've read.
(if they *aren't* redundant -- if you need clean reception of both the lower and upper digital sidebands -- then KDIS-HD isn't going to work at your location because the local on 1130 is going to trash KDIS's upper digital sideband. If I'm correct to guess you're in the San Diego area, I wonder if the Mexican station on 1090 is going to trash KDIS's *lower* digital sideband?)
It definitely won't help at night, as KDIS is required to turn off their IBOC signal at sunset or 6pm, whichever comes later. The FCC may change their mind about that at some future point. (though IMHO if that happens, IBOC interference from other stations is likely to clobber KDIS...)
> unreadable because of a very strong local on 1130, getting a
> HD radio wouldn't help me hear their IBOC signal?
Y'know, that's a good question. I'm pretty sure the upper and lower digital sidebands *are* redundant, in which case you do stand a pretty good chance of getting KDIS-HD. But I'm not 100% certain about that redundancy. It's not totally clear from the documents I've read.
(if they *aren't* redundant -- if you need clean reception of both the lower and upper digital sidebands -- then KDIS-HD isn't going to work at your location because the local on 1130 is going to trash KDIS's upper digital sideband. If I'm correct to guess you're in the San Diego area, I wonder if the Mexican station on 1090 is going to trash KDIS's *lower* digital sideband?)
It definitely won't help at night, as KDIS is required to turn off their IBOC signal at sunset or 6pm, whichever comes later. The FCC may change their mind about that at some future point. (though IMHO if that happens, IBOC interference from other stations is likely to clobber KDIS...)
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