What Is The Appeal?

[RadioMan203]

It still stymies me to see 30 year old Optimods for the money some people are trying to get. Between the scarcity of parts and the improvement in analog and digital technology since their advent what makes these things worth what many consider an inflated price? This all came to mind as I was helping out a school station trying to upgrade a few pieces of equipment.

When reviewing sites from radio groups, engineering firms, etc., I see well over $1300 or more for an 8100a. On the other hand I've seen newer generation Optimods unable to command that price.

Then I get understandably confused when I see people offering Prisms for $600 - $1000 each while others have what I would consider more reasonable pricing on theirs.

I'd be interested to hear opinions from those who are better tuned in to the used equipment market.

 

[chriscollins]

I guess the appeal is that some like to get the old 'fixable' box, hotrod it, and play with it. Kind of like an old car. We have 1 8100A (late model with LED meters) we use for backup and an 8200 for the digital studios for backup.

I took advantage of it and sold my 8100A/XT2 and bought low budget 5500's for my stations. I told my boss we would almost break even and he was fine with it.

I'd rather have a modern box on the air, with a backup in the rack.

 

[Kmagrill]

10 years ago, a local LPFM was trying to go on the air with a sub-$1000 budget for processing. That bought an Optimod 8000A and a pair of Gentner Prism IIs on eBay with about $100 leftover to pay for shipping. They also scrounged up a CP-803, but we never installed it because the Optimod/Prism pair was competitive without the 803. So, for the station on a serious budget, that was about as good as could be done in the early 2000s.

With the new low cost choices currently available, they would do it differently if building out today. It takes a lot more tinkering and listening to get an analog processing chain to sound good compared to a digital one. Today, you can get a new DSPX mini for less than some of the old Optimods are selling for on eBay. You can put together a Breakaway box for even less. With costs so reasonable, the argument for servicing older gear even starts to fade away. While almost everything can still be fixed on an Optimod, the time it takes to do so starts to become a factor compared to just installing some software on a spare PC and being done.

 

[Lazy J]

You ever notice how radio people (especially on these boards) like to talk about how great radio "used to be"? I think they have the same mentality for some of the old broadcast gear as well.

 

[Kmagrill]

There's probably some truth in that.

 

[satech]

I've sampled the DSP-X Mini and frankly I'm sticking with my 8100A. Maybe because it's more optimized for the 50 uS European market, with 75 uS pre-emphasis I can hear the DSP-X ducking the highs a lot -- one of the things Mr. Orban worked many hours on his HF limiter/clipper design to specifically avoid.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

Try one of the budget boxes from one of the O guys. for 3,000 dollars you can sound exceptional with them.

 

[oldiesstation]

5500?? Now with SSB is a great value. A Bill Sacks 8100 refurb sounds darn nice.He does a complete refurb not just some power caps.lots of caps and newer cleaner,louder opamps makes this baby sing.For under a grand you will have a classic analog sound,great on classic hits.

 

[Kent T]

I happen to like the musical, clean sounds of a well refurbished 8100 on light settings. But the Omnia One is to my ear equally musical on same format.

 

[satech]

I happen to like the musical, clean sounds of a well refurbished 8100 on light settings. But the Omnia One is to my ear equally musical on same format.

On the famous "CG Smooth" preset, maybe so. But just like with the DSP-X Mini, with the Omnia One there are some "problem" songs which will cause audible and annoying HF ducking and tonal balance shifts that the 8100 simply does not exhibit.

 

[oldiesstation]

I agree with Satech.i also have a box running Breakaway,intel dual core,SSD drive with the Marian Trace Alpha. Total price about 700.00. It easily hangs with all the other boxes,even the 10k+ ones.Talk about bang for the buck.But i still prefer the Sacks 8100A/Ariane combo for classic hits.Just more musical to my ears..

 

[richard.vanderveen]

There is no digital box available that generates the same sound as an 8100 with a rcf-1/2 card and Prisms. And I just happen to love that sound. I'm not saying it's better or worse than another processor, just that I love the sound of it. Another plus is the lack of latency. When I'm on-air, I notice anything over 4ms. And yes, offcourse I can work with it, I just don't like it. And then there is the ducking that only an analog box can do, it can make transisitions sound very,very smooth. All digital boxes (except maybe the 8200) are too 'analytic' for that.

Would I put it on air? Nope. I used to, but not anymore. The best sounding box I have on-air now is a dedicated Breakaway PC...

 

[PaulyBoy]

On the famous "CG Smooth" preset, maybe so. But just like with the DSP-X Mini, with the Omnia One there are some "problem" songs which will cause audible and annoying HF ducking and tonal balance shifts that the 8100 simply does not exhibit.

Spoken like someone who has not mastered the art of tweaking multiband processing.

 

[BobOnTheJob]

The best sounding box I have on-air now is a dedicated Breakaway PC...

I have a Breakaway ASIO with Trace Alpha into a Broadcast Warehouse 1watt exciter throttled to part 15 specs. On the Bose Wave Radio, it blows most of the dial away. On many songs, it outdoes the Omnia 9--and I set them both up. It sits in my laundry room and runs. Power failure? Restarts every time with no human intervention. Would it be this reliable at a remote transmitter site? Can't say, but here at home, it's bulletproof, rocks the dial and it's cheap. There is no used commercial gear that can be cobbled together to match it in my opinion. I had a rare pair of Behringer Combinators into an 8100A...loved them. But Breakaway left them in the dust and off they went to greater NYC!

 

[WNTIRadio]

Make sure you've upgraded the Omnia.One to the 5 band firmware. All that ducking goes away.

And if you're having that much problems with ducking, then you're doing something wrong. The preemphasis comes after the limiters in the Omnia.

An 8100 will have it's own spectral skew, which is that it is at the mercy of what comes in to it. If the recording is dull, there's no way to brighten it up. And if it is hot on the highs, the HF limiters will kick in and remind everyone why we gave it the nickname "Optimud".

I have one that I use as a loaner/backup for clients. Ditto for a 9100B. But that's about all I would use the 8100 for. When the money is available, I'm going to sell it and buy an Omnia.One, as that can do FM/AM or HD with the switching of the firmware. The 9100B however, I don't think I'll part with that just yet.

 

[satech]

For the really budget-conscious, a great little processor to look out for is the CRL Amigo FM. They seem to finally be showing up on the used market, for about the same prices as an Optimod 8000. Not a loudness box, but it makes a great backup or LPFM processor -- it's only 1RU, is quick and easy to set up, and has a very smooth sound with an excellent AGC. In fact, I've compared it to the Inovonics David III, and hands-down, I'd choose the Amigo. For about half the price of -- and one-quarter the size of -- an 8100, it really fits the bill. Heck, you could even run Breakaway on a PC and then just use the Amigo as an overshoot-compensated stereo generator!

 

[VelvetR]

For the really budget-conscious, a great little processor to look out for is the CRL Amigo FM. They seem to finally be showing up on the used market.................

Extrapolating a bit here, so take this only as a very general suggestion....

I've used both the original CRL and the Amigo/CRL limiters for AM for over 20 years. Love 'em! Never used the FM processor so the caution I'm about to express MAY NOT APPLY to the FM but it would not hurt to chase it further. The original and Amigo versions were virtually identical except for the front panel graphics. Absolutely the best limiters I've ever used (didn't take full advantage of their capabilities; used at the transmitter site for final touch only).

The only problem s I've had with them concerned the packaged power supplies. I didn't find them field-repairable so just ordered a replacement the first time a PS failed. In talking with the then-CRL service folks they commented that the packaged supply was running right at its limit and keeping it cool was critical. I had 1 RU clear above and below in a nice cool room so there wasn't much to do on that account. When I ordered the replacement PS I ordered two and kept one as a spare. Several years later another supply cooked. At that time I used my spare and also bought an other spare plus I bought one of the Amigo/CRL replacements which used the same power supply.

Since then my last spare cooked and no replacements were available. Discontinued by their manufacturer (not a CRL built item).

Now the two limiters are wired (input and output) in parallel and AC for them passes through a remotely controllable relay box so only one can be on at a time. Not elegant but very simple. I did that because the power supplies seem to have a unique sensitivity to weather; they only fail when the snow is horzontal, wind is 70 MPH and visibility is measured in inches. I'm not chasing replacements 'cause I'm now retired and growing lazier by the day. Try it; you'll like it!

So, if you can find one of the Amigo/CRL limiters, grab it quick! But also check with Orban to see if the PS in the box is the same one used in the AM limiters (looks like it from the on-line manual but can't be sure). If it is, ask if they now have a direct replacement supply available. If they do, buy one or two. If they don't? Maybe try to find TWO of the complete working limiters. If you can fine one good one and one not working and cheap, buy it in hopes something other than the power supply was the problem and part it out.

 

[richard.vanderveen]

Heck, you could even run Breakaway on a PC and then just use the Amigo as an overshoot-compensated stereo generator!

Why would you do that? There are no overshoots with Breakaway.

 

[GeneSavage]

I think Richard hit the nail on the head. I love, love, LOVE Breakaway, but for my 80s internet station I am better able to tweak the sound with the old Sound Solution v. 1.31 (free), fed by Stereo Tool only running it's 10-band compressors, and at very light settings at that.

Am I the loudest, cleanest thing on the web? Hardly! Do I have the "signature sound" I was looking for? Yes I do.

Bonus question: would I recommend this setup to anybody else? Only if you can't get the "sound" you want out of Breakaway, & you can out of these processors. I think they're best for oldies & classic hits. BE WARNED: unless you have a preset you like for Sound Solution, you will spend possibly MONTHS getting the sound just right. It literally took me three months to get it to sound the way I wanted; I'd tweak it one direction, then come back the next day and pull it the other direction...

If you can get Breakaway to sound the way you want it to (or you're happy with one of the basic settings at 50 / 50 / 50), you'll be louder and cleaner than anybody else on the dial. You can set that thing to blowtorch and it doesn't even break a sweat.

 

[ok walters]

Great post - sounds like a bunch of old mechanics saying they don't build cars like they used to.