What is the deal with WCBS 101.1 these days?

[John Pine]

I totally agree about the "burned to a crisp" music on CBS-FM. It gets to the point where I just can't stomach anymore of the usual "Space Cowboy", "American Pie", or "Knock on Wood".
Now I also listen to B-103 out on LI, WJRZ 100.1 on the Jersey Shore, as well as NJ 101.5 on weekends, and DRC-FM and they all sound eons more energetic and interesting. B103 has been around for over 20 years and seems to have a loyal following. Certainly when I'm in Suffolk or down in Ocean County I have better choices for Classic Hits and Oldies. CBS-FM does well because it's the only game in town. Dropping stuff like the Supremes and the British Invasion (save for a couple of Beatles songs) is a lifeless format. The 60s may be getting demographically old, but, they are still requested and people want to hear them. A couple weekends ago WJRZ even did a bubblegum pop weekend! But CBS-FM never seems to do weekend specials that are much different from the regular format, sometimes an Awesome 80s weekend and you'll hope to hear Men at Work, Pet Shop Boys, or Asia, but you won't, just the same tired "Hit Me with your best shot" you'll hear regularly. Only time I hear anything interesting is the Sunday night classic countdown.
From a listener's standpoint, CBS-FM's sound is awful. But they seem to make lots of money, so CBS won't change a thing. With 80% of the NYC dial some kind of CHR format, CBS knows they'll do well, as long as one of them doesn't flip to a format that could steal their listeners. Q104.3 though is trying, focusing on alot of classic hit format material, they play virtually no 80s hair bands at all. Another mediocre station IMO. WBAB, WWSK, and WCHR are much better rockers along with WPLR in CT. Basically NYC radio is mediocre, CBS is just part of that. Safe formats bring in the numbers and the money. It's unfortunate NYC doesn't have a real oldies station, but it doesn't have a real rocker, even a classic rocker, either. The demographics just seem to support Pop/CHR and Rhythmic formats, it is in the suburbs where oldies and rock fans like me have more of a choice. Lets not forget 107.1 The Peak either. But if you're stuck in much of the city, Nassau, or Hudson County its hard to pick up these Rimshotters. Of course Philly has more oldies and rock, but it's a different market. But I know I'm not the only one who is tuning out CBS-FM over the stale playlist, maybe when the numbers tuning out get more noticable they'll do something. Tight playlists may work with CHR, but CBS-FM is doing the same thing with Classic Hits, but I'm not sure playing the same 20 songs over and over again is gonna keep working for this demographic. I think if I hear "If You Aint See Nothin' Yet" or "Sweet Home Alabama" one more time I'm gonna....

 

[fordranger797]

WCBS has always been a nostalgic piece for me. I would take trips to NYC with my Dad when I was a kid, and we would always listen to WCBS. As I recall, the music was mainly 50's and 60's oldies (a lot of 60's music such as "The Searchers", "The Turtles", "The Supreams". With SOME 70's music such as "Chi Lites".

Unfortunately I cannot remember the details. I was literally a kid when i'd be listening to the station, probably around age 5 - 10. The detail I remember most was the jingle in between songs, "101.1! CBS-FM!". I assume I was listening between 2000-2005 before then went to "Jack FM".

WCBS really taught me to love real oldies. I am eighteen years old now and I still listen to oldies all of the time (unfortunately not on the radio anymore). Its sad to think I will not have a great station like the old CBS-FM to introduce my kids someday to that music. I also know of countless people my age who would not touch that Contemporary Hit Radio with a 10 foot pole, and want REAL OLDIES and REAL CLASSIC ROCK on the radio.

 

[TheBigA]

From a listener's standpoint, CBS-FM's sound is awful. But they seem to make lots of money, so CBS won't change a thing.

The reason the station makes a lot of money is because, from a listener's standpoint, it's great! Listeners love it. They're loyal. This station has TSL that exceeds a typical music station. In short, it's a hit. That's why it makes money. Not the other way around. You're overthinking this station. Just listen like a listener.

 

[davideduardo]

Tight playlists may work with CHR, but CBS-FM is doing the same thing with Classic Hits, but I'm not sure playing the same 20 songs over and over again is gonna keep working for this demographic. I think if I hear "If You Aint See Nothin' Yet" or "Sweet Home Alabama" one more time I'm gonna....

CBS-FM has a non-specialty show "playlist" of around 800 or so songs. That is at the higher end of library size for successful Classic Hits stations nationally.

 

[Gregg.]

I have to laugh when I see people complaining about "burnt to a crisp" songs being played on WCBS-FM. Hey, it's an Oldies/Greatest Hits station. It's SUPPOSED to play the same songs over and over again, songs you've been hearing regularly for the last 20 to 30 years. I think what you're really saying is "I want WCBS-FM to play only the songs I like, and none of the songs I don't like."

When listening to WCBS-FM in years past, didn't they play Rag Doll, I Want to Hold Your Hand and Baby Love over and over and over again? And that's what you wanted to hear. When they first signed on, they played Rock Around The Clock, Jailhouse Rock and Respect over and over again. The playlist was made up of 50s and 60s hits. Then as time went on, they subtracted the 50s songs and added 70s songs. Now time has moved forward again and we're now hearing 70s and 80s hits. It's the same progression that the station has gone through since it started the format decades ago.

20 years ago, people were upset when the Del Vikings and Chubby Checker songs were removed from the format, and they added Three Dog Night and Hall & Oates. Now others are upset that the Mamas & Papas and Turtles songs are leaving, getting replaced by Prince and Madonna songs. At least a few times per hour, you'll still hear some Beatles, Stones and Motown.

I'll join you in saying that I'm disappointed in the narrow choices 50+ people have on the radio today. I'm not sure I understand how 25-54 is the most valuable demographic yet one minute past your 55th birthday, you fall off a cliff. But commercial radio is dependent on advertisers who want younger consumers. So that's why WCBS-FM can't play many songs that are more than 40 years old.

 

[benale]

As someone over 60. I'm glad I have choices for 50's and 60's oldies..SiriusXM and various Internet stations like Rewound Radio,Ride Radio,Radio Bop 60's and others. I used to love CBS-FM in the 80's and 90's. Classic personalities from WABC and WMCA and great music from the 50's through the 70's. Every oldies/classic hits station plays 70's and 80's. That's the way of the world.

I always find it ironic that people who want to hear the real oldies and various older skewing formats have to rely on the Internet. The over 55's generally are not as computer savvy as younger people, but I am very happy I can hear all those great songs that radio doesn't play anymore.

 

[TheBigA]

I'll join you in saying that I'm disappointed in the narrow choices 50+ people have on the radio today.

Huh? Boomers have lots of choices on the radio. From what we see, boomers love talk radio, news radio, classic rock, and classic hits. Plus NPR and classical. Meanwhile if you're a 20-something male, there's no alternative rock, no gangsta rap, and no EDM.

The problem with OTA radio is limited frequencies available in markets, even the size of NYC. Sirius has 100 music stations. That's how they can provide all the narrow niches people want. But you have to pay for it.

 

[Groove1670]

When I started in radio I played the same 50's and 60's over and over.

Years later. The same 70's and 80's over and over.

Yep, (Hot AC in the 90's) Same 80's and 90's over and over.

and yes I can continue. The point... people listened, and every station was successful ratings, and revenue wise.

I love hearing young folks in their late 20's saying. "They just don't make music like that anymore". BTW: the 1990's is their decade.

Harsh reality... It is the cycle of music and life.

Twenty years for now the post will read: Why doesn't radio play Backstreet Boys, old Brittany, Mariah Carey, Third Eye Blind,No Doubt, Etc.

Same as it ever was.

I pose this question to those who dislike AM/FM radio and the "burnt to a crisp rotations" (and I don't mean to be rude).

I don't understand if XM, Pandora, etc... is part of your listening habit, and you have sworn off AM/FM radio, why do you continue to contribute to the board.

 

[TheBigA]

Let me add to the above post that I don't spend a moment of my time ever thinking about the people who don't listen. The ones who preach about Pandora and XM. They are not my concern. I don't care how passionate they are, or how good their argument is. They're not in my audience, so what they say doesn't matter to me. I've also learned that I am not going to change their mind, or get them to understand my perspective. So I put my time into making radio for the people who listen. I speak with them, I correspond via social media, I see them at concerts and events, and I know their opinions and how they feel. There are a whole lot of them, and they're very passionate in their opinions too. They are the people I care about.

 

[tykleinle]

I can't stand the stereotype of "demographics" that if a song is from the 1960s that only listeners ages 50+ tune into it. I'm currently in college and most of my friends love the music from the late 60s into the early 70s and I'm not talking just the top Beatles tunes. They're not senior citizens, they're the "prime demographic" advertisers love. I can't stand CBS-FM anymore. I live in the Poconos and we have a locally-owned classic hits station that plays tons of 60s, 70s, and 80s hits that CBS-FM won't touch. They are doing quite well from what I hear. There is enough great music from that decade to not hear the same song for over a week, which is the case when I listen to WABT 96.7 in my area.

 

[Jason Roberts]

About every person who has never been in radio programming answers the question with
"much bigger playlists". Never does this person believe that it's been tried. It has. It doesn't work.

That having been said, playlist size is, to a degree, fluid and arguable to a point. The fact is:
in the basic "oldies" format, there are about 1,300 to 1,500 hundred songs you "can" play. With
Classic Hits, I suspect the universe is a bit less. Why? Greater radio fragmentation. Especially
in the 80's, where the rock songs have largely gone to the Classic Rock format and the Pop
songs largely to Oldies/Classic Hits. This didn't happen back when rock and roll was one
format. Today, it's, what? About 5 different formats?

Nonetheless, do you want to "play them all in rotation"? No. Never. Why? Some are good
to play as "spice" songs and "weekend feature" songs or "once in a while" songs. But those
songs heard every day or every week will drive listeners away because they are an
acquired taste.

Oldies case in point: Once in a while, I can listen to Napoleon XIV's "They're Coming To
Take Me Away, Ha-Ha!" and laugh at how stupid it was. But I sure as heck don't want
to hear it every day, or every week! Most people don't.

Different radio stations face different competitive challenges. What length your playlist takes
also depends on the competitive situation in the market. Some situations dictate a shorter
list...in others you can go a bit larger. Typically, if you have about 450 to 550 titles in rotation
and properly manage the spice songs that make up the rest of your universe, you have
something pretty close to WCBS-FM's original format.

But, I agree with David. Demographics and how advertisers use radio to go after them are
the real reason the original oldies stations are all but a memory. The same is already happening
to "original" classic rock. It's not "young programmers". It's not "corporations". It's the
quirks of radio being a business!

Requests are fine, if one truly knows how to manage a request show. But "all requests all the time"
fails all the time. You can't have the assumed 2 percent of your audience that ever bothers to
call the station programming it.

Some internet oldies radio stations pride themselves on how many song titles they play. I'd like
to see their P & L's...if they, in fact have them.

The challenge, as I see it, is for these stations to figure out how to properly monetize their
product. For most, it ain't happened yet. And I don't expect it to, until they figure out they
can't be trying to please every song collector with a big collection of 45's. That's the minority
of listeners. You play the hits, find the songs that work and play them. Find the songs you
can play and use them to reduce fatigue at the right times...and reject the rest.

Don't understand my thinking? Think I'm a "corporate lackey"? Try programming a station
yourself...

 

[fordranger797]

Okay, well i'm sorry if i'm getting people riled up for a radio format..

What really upsets me the most is how these radio corporations blindly believe that ALL people from X age demographic will be listening to the station they cater towards that age group. The vast majority of people I hang around with (age 16-20) DO NOT want to hear any contemporary hit radio. I know the window of people I know does not come close to being an accurate, scientific measurement. However, it is proof that what you hear on the radio will not always be dependent on how old you are/what demographic you fit into.

Today there are really only six choices for what you hear on the radio. Those being, classic hits/rock, rock, AC/Soft AC, CHR, Country, Talk/Sports talk.

 

[wadio]

... these radio corporations blindly believe that ALL people from X age demographic will be listening to the station they cater towards that age group.

The word I'd use is pander. Old guys armed with focus group stats and preference meters determine what they think the target demo wants to hear. Generally it doesn't work. Creativity just happens -- you can encourage it but you can't force it -- that's called pandering.

Unless there's a return to injecting some human instinct into programming, which I doubt will ever happen, I don't think we're likely to see any really great radio again.

 

[TheBigA]

Unless there's a return to injecting some human instinct into programming, which I doubt will ever happen, I don't think we're likely to see any really great radio again.

There is human instinct now. Every programmer I speak with is very familiar with what he does and why. The PRIMARY human instinct is to preserve one's job. You do that by creating a format that attracts the audience the sales folks can sell. To do otherwise guarantees the programmer will be looking for new work soon.

 

[stevensonair]

Some of the most interesting "programming" is done by people doing custom music for various brands and retail/dining establishments. They quite often create fascinating "mood" blends that make sense to the listener, but are sourced from a wider mix of genres and eras than standard radio formats.

Not saying it's a business model for terrestrial radio, but if you're wondering where the great music directors are these days.

 

[CTListener]

Okay, well i'm sorry if i'm getting people riled up for a radio format..

What really upsets me the most is how these radio corporations blindly believe that ALL people from X age demographic will be listening to the station they cater towards that age group. The vast majority of people I hang around with (age 16-20) DO NOT want to hear any contemporary hit radio. I know the window of people I know does not come close to being an accurate, scientific measurement. However, it is proof that what you hear on the radio will not always be dependent on how old you are/what demographic you fit into.

Today there are really only six choices for what you hear on the radio. Those being, classic hits/rock, rock, AC/Soft AC, CHR, Country, Talk/Sports talk.

Don't forget urban and the Latino music formats.

 

[michael hagerty]

First, no radio owner thinks, much less believes that all people from any demo will listen. A 10 share is a big deal. And that means 90 percent are listening to something else or not listening to radio at all.

And no one is targeting 16-20. CHR is aiming 18-34...with a center target of 26.

Okay, well i'm sorry if i'm getting people riled up for a radio format..

What really upsets me the most is how these radio corporations blindly believe that ALL people from X age demographic will be listening to the station they cater towards that age group. The vast majority of people I hang around with (age 16-20) DO NOT want to hear any contemporary hit radio. I know the window of people I know does not come close to being an accurate, scientific measurement. However, it is proof that what you hear on the radio will not always be dependent on how old you are/what demographic you fit into.

Today there are really only six choices for what you hear on the radio. Those being, classic hits/rock, rock, AC/Soft AC, CHR, Country, Talk/Sports talk.

 

[davideduardo]

First, no radio owner thinks, much less believes that all people from any demo will listen. A 10 share is a big deal. And that means 90 percent are listening to something else or not listening to radio at all.

It's even more extreme. A 10 share is 10% of those listening to the radio at that time. Since the 6 AM to 12 Midnight rating of about 10 indicates that 9 out of every 10 persons is not listening to the radio, a 10 share means that 99% of all persons are not listening to a station at any average given time or time period.

And no one is targeting 16-20. CHR is aiming 18-34...with a center target of 26.

Yep. And even more specifically, 18-34 women, with a secondary of 18-44 women.

 

[davideduardo]

Don't forget urban and the Latino music formats.

And the Hispanic Spanish language formats have multiple varieties, just like English language formats do.

 

[davideduardo]

The word I'd use is pander. Old guys armed with focus group stats and preference meters determine what they think the target demo wants to hear. Generally it doesn't work. Creativity just happens -- you can encourage it but you can't force it -- that's called pandering.

Basically, what you are saying is that it is wrong to ask what listeners feel about stations and programming (focus groups) and what songs they want to hear and what they don't want to hear (music tests).

Research is a tool used by programmers to build a radio station. Used by good programmers, it helps to determine what specific things listeners want... but the programmer has to put it together skillfully. Things like flow, blend, imaging, presentation, promotion and talent (whether that means DJs, mixers, personalities or whatever) can only be put together by programmers. And the reason why some stations win and others do not has to do with the skill of the programmers.

Unless there's a return to injecting some human instinct into programming, which I doubt will ever happen, I don't think we're likely to see any really great radio again.

There is plenty of "humanity" in programming. All computers and research do is make the product better, but it takes people with programming skills to use the tools. Think of it like carpentry: you can give the worlds best tools to a chimpanzee, but it can't build a bookcase... it takes a skilled carpenter with vision to make a beautiful piece of furniture.