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What is the deal with WCBS 101.1 these days?

Maybe. But I think it's more likely his "market research" would have been listening to other stations that are programmed to the focus groups, then making tweaks based on his intuition.

Just for your reference, focus groups are not done for music research. Your insistence in blaming focus groups for whatever you think is wrong with radio is absurd and incorrect.

For example, he might have created his own exclusive "hits" by having bands come into the studio -- through the huge glass entryway ;) -- and perform live, then sweeten the best tracks, play them a lot and get the audience hooked on the exclusive content.

You would have to do battle with the entire music industry and much of artist management for this. Even when a station does it's own concert it can't as a ruie re-run the live broadcast or use the live version songs anywhere else. The record companies realize today that it would interfere with critical BDS and MediaBase detections, change listener buying patterns, etc.

I've personally dealt with the issue at a rock station were we did an acoustic set by a name group for 15 minutes, live, just before noon. three times a week. When we tried to feature some of the songs in the morning show, we got those calls that said, "we will send a C&D if you keep doing it". The labels were Sony, Universal and WEA... so even though this was a few years back, nothing will change.

According to Rick Sklar, WABC in effect created its own hits based on the DJs instinctive picks at staff meetings.

That's already been answered: Sklar simply thinned the herd of possible already-hit songs by having a music meeting.

Then, since Jobs didn't mind spending money to make money, he might have drastically reduced the spot load and charged a substantial premium for the remaining avails. The conventional wisdom says, "you can't do that!" Just as they said nobody would buy a computer without a keyboard.

This has been done. I've done it. But the result is not exactly as you describe.

I had the first FM in a market of about a million people, and I purposely did not run commercials. I was only able to do that because my three AMs in the market produced sufficient profit so that I could indulge in a "hobby" with the FM. But as the station started to develop audience... measurable audience... my biggest local clients asked to advertise. To discourage them, I quadrupled the rate of the highest rated AM in the market. Amazingly, quite a few paid it so I limited the spot load to 6 20-second spots an hour at that enormous rate and gave line exclusivity. The station was very profitable that way until many other FMs came on the air with copycat formats and advertisers could, as Michael said, "buy around me".

That was a unique situation where there was great demand and only one product available.

My first station in that market went on the air as the first Top 40. We averaged the spot load of the then top stations, and did one-third of that per hour, and sold spots at more than the highest rate of the top station. We went for 6 months without billing even $50 a month. Nobody would pay more for a new format with no proven audience. Then the numbers appeared, and we sold out in 30 days, even in overnights... but it was because the ratings were so high that the spot rate was actually cheap. We then increased rates!

But the rates were paid because the cost per thousand was actually the best in the market. Any station, again as Michael says, that wants to double th rate and cut the spot load in half has to double the ratings to make it possible because advertisers buy based on a metric: the number of listeners every dollar spent obtains. If your cost per listener is too high, you get bought around.

The cliche is "thinking outside the box," and I don't think it's done much in radio today. Radio desperately needs a Steve Jobs type to shake it up.

Jobs's company essentially created two product categories, the portable MP3 player and the consumer smartphone. But both music players and telephones were already, just like radio, established product categories. So Jobs did not "think outside the box" in using new technology in miniaturization and such to create a better, smaller player or a mass market step up from the BlackBerry. He stayed in the category, though. He pushed the existing envelope. He did not invent a new category.

How many earth shattering radio ideas have come along? FM, in about 1938. Let's see, it took that one about 30 years to catch on. Top 40, which saved radio in the early 50's, took several years to gain momentum... with some big markets not having a Top 40 station until around '58, 6 years after its debut at KOWH.

Radio mirrors consumer taste. As a reflector, it can not really change tastes but it can join the groundswell of any trend. So innovation is going to be just like what jobs did with the over-one-hundred-year-old telephone: adaptation to the times with things that are perceived as big changes in the moment but which history will take little note of.
 
My status quo comment was about what I perceive to be the general attitude here -- not related to Sklar. If everyone's happy with the state of radio in 2013 that's fine with me.
 
don't advertisers know old people have grand kids to buy junk for? :)

I have to agree, I don't think these advertising people know their demographics as well as they think that they do. I'm 62 years old, and I look back at the things I've shelled out for over last week or so....an iPhone 5S, an iPhone 5C, some designer clothes for two kids and myself, a couple of Michael Kors items for my (younger) girlfriend, downloads of some current chart hits, etc, etc. On the other hand, maybe I need a shrink!
 
My status quo comment was about what I perceive to be the general attitude here -- not related to Sklar. If everyone's happy with the state of radio in 2013 that's fine with me.

"The state of radio" depends on what station you listen to, what format you like, and your expectations for that format. In the world today, with the splintering of music tastes, the multiplicity of distribution channels, and the way in which OTA commercial radio is funded, that there will have to be compromises made. So when you ask someone if they're happy with the status quo, just about everyone will have some issues. But we have to be practical about it, and realize that there simply aren't enough frequencies for everyone to be happy with radio. So users have to understand that, and I think most of them do.
 
I have to agree, I don't think these advertising people know their demographics as well as they think that they do. I'm 62 years old, and I look back at the things I've shelled out for over last week or so....an iPhone 5S, an iPhone 5C, some designer clothes for two kids and myself, a couple of Michael Kors items for my (younger) girlfriend, downloads of some current chart hits, etc, etc. On the other hand, maybe I need a shrink!


Some specific, upscale brands there that do little, if any advertising.

How likely is it that radio ads for competitors would have moved you to make different choices?
 
I have to agree, I don't think these advertising people know their demographics as well as they think that they do.

It's not the "advertising people" who make those determinations. It's the marketing people at the ad agency's clients that do that.

The biggest reason that ad campaigns do not focus on those over 50 or 55 is that people in those demos are harder to convince. So it takes more ads, at greater cost, to make a sale. Often, the cost of the sale does not leave a profit margin in the upper demos.

Older people buy things. But the expense of getting them to by your thing rather than the other companies thing is too great. So most companies do not specifically target 55+ in radio.
 
Some specific, upscale brands there that do little, if any advertising.

How likely is it that radio ads for competitors would have moved you to make different choices?

That's a defeatist attitude. Suppose Samsung, or LG, or HTC, or Huawei embarked on a massive radio campaign to pit it's Android phones against the iPhone. It worked for Molson back in the day, putting a relatively unheard of Canadian beer company on the American map. It's working for Geico. Radio is a cost-effective way to get great saturation and build brand recognition.

I sense this feeling of resignation around here that radio is as good as it's gonna get and there's not much point in anyone advertising on it. If that's the prevailing wisdom, no wonder advertisers are staying away.
 
I sense this feeling of resignation around here that radio is as good as it's gonna get and there's not much point in anyone advertising on it. If that's the prevailing wisdom, no wonder advertisers are staying away.

That's not what anyone has said.

Look at TV... shows live and die on the 18-49 numbers. If a show skews too old, and has lower 18-49, it is either run on Friday or canceled.

Radio is the same, but since radio is format rather than block based, entire stations also live or die based on their 18-54 and 18-49 appeal in the rated markets. If there is no ad money against 55+, it makes no sense to try to program for that group.

CBS, on the TV side, has been waging a campaign to look at broader, meaning older, demos for several years. They present all manner of consumer data to agencies and agency accounts. But there has been very little change at the client side as marketers look at the ROI on a sale made to a senior and say, "no thanks".

That's not defeatist. It is realistic and pragmatic. It's yet another iteration of "go fish where the fish are".
 
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How likely is it that radio ads for competitors would have moved you to make different choices?

Certainly advertising, if not necessarily radio, was a factor in several purchases, Michael. Maybe I'll be looking for a debt-consolidation expert soon....I'm sure that radio can help me there!
 
That's a defeatist attitude. Suppose Samsung, or LG, or HTC, or Huawei embarked on a massive radio campaign to pit it's Android phones against the iPhone. It worked for Molson back in the day, putting a relatively unheard of Canadian beer company on the American map. It's working for Geico. Radio is a cost-effective way to get great saturation and build brand recognition.

I sense this feeling of resignation around here that radio is as good as it's gonna get and there's not much point in anyone advertising on it. If that's the prevailing wisdom, no wonder advertisers are staying away.

Actually, you've missed the point.

There are plenty of advertisements for phones other than iPhones on the radio, and for clothing other than Michael Kors. And people buy them. They (iPhone and Kors) aren't dominant. So there's a payoff in advertising for those that do...but it's generally among people under 55.

But the 62-year-old poster bought the brands that didn't advertise.

I wanted to see his response, to find out if the competing advertising even registered with him, but it's now more important to correct your misimpression before it spreads.
 
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Certainly advertising, if not necessarily radio, was a factor in several purchases, Michael. Maybe I'll be looking for a debt-consolidation expert soon....I'm sure that radio can help me there!


Okay, but we're talking about radio. You chose high-quality goods. But would radio advertising aimed at a mass audience have swayed you from an iPhone to a Droid...from Michael Kors to this week's sale at Kohl's?

i guess where I'm going with this is that those of us with experience and perspectivec(I'm five years younger than you) buy differently than we did in our mid-30s. While we're by no means as brand-loyal as generations before us, we are still less likely to be swayed by radio advertising than someone younger, less experienced and looking for a deal.
 
I sense this feeling of resignation around here that radio is as good as it's gonna get and there's not much point in anyone advertising on it. If that's the prevailing wisdom, no wonder advertisers are staying away.

First of all, advertisers AREN"T staying away. But they're very demanding. When you take someone's money, they get to call the shots. If they want programming that attracts a younger audience, that's what they get. It sounds to me like you've never spoken with an advertiser. But second of all, radio IS very good. Specifically WCBS is very good. It's doing a great job, and is attracting a huge audience, even though there are many other places for listeners to hear the exact same songs. The fact that you're not happy is more about you than the state of radio.
 
It's yet another iteration of "go fish where the fish are".

But the "fish" are mostly elsewhere. The prize demos are leaving radio and you can't will them back. 18-to-whatever is wishful thinking. 25+, perhaps, but every year the lower end of the threshold gets a year older.

Perhaps a better way to put it is, "Sell to the audience you have -- not the one you wish you had."

The fact that you're not happy is more about you than the state of radio.

It's not about me being happy -- it's about the fact that maybe, just maybe, radio could be better than it is.
 
But the "fish" are mostly elsewhere. The prize demos are leaving radio and you can't will them back. 18-to-whatever is wishful thinking. 25+, perhaps, but every year the lower end of the threshold gets a year older.

There is no threshold.

In 18-34, Z-100 reaches an average of 35% of the population in that demo; KTU is next at 32%, Hot and Power both get over 25%. The two leading Spanish language stations reach 13% and 17% on average. All stations combined reach around 90% to 90.3% of the whole demo.

Even with teens, it's 87% on average for "all radio".

Are younger people listening less to over-the-air radio? Absolutely. But the decline is nowhere as great as some analysts claim because any pre-2008 numbers have to be adjusted for a change in methodology.

Another failure of your argument is the fact that radio stations and their owners are moving into new media options for their content so, while the OTA signals may decline, the newer distribution channel distribution will likely increase. Radio is in the content business... not the transmitter business... so it does not matter how people listen.

Perhaps a better way to put it is, "Sell to the audience you have -- not the one you wish you had."

So Z-100 should not pitch agencies and clients on the 1.5 million 18-34 persons they reach? I think they are selling the audience they have, and much of it is 18-34.

Agencies buy 18-34, 18-49, 25-54 and all the subsets. They don't buy 55+.

It's not about me being happy -- it's about the fact that maybe, just maybe, radio could be better than it is.

You might want to rethink your assumptions based on some actual facts.
 
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It's not about me being happy -- it's about the fact that maybe, just maybe, radio could be better than it is.


One can't discuss "radio" as one thing. It's 14,000 individual stations, each doing different things for different people in different places. So you need to be specific. Could WNYM do a better job? Absolutely. Could WABC do a better job? Probably. But when we're talking about the Top 5 stations in NYC, I doubt it. These are not only top ratings-getters, but top billers, and some are even award winners.
 
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