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What killed WTMI? (before the sale, that is)

> The WPOW thread brought out such interesting info from a
> lot of experts, I thought I'd ask, What really killed
> classical station WTMI?
> (Before it was sold to Cox in 2001, that is.)
>
> Was it Bach & Roll?
>
> 73s from 954
>
Valuations killed WTMI. Hard to justify 3-4 million in revenue and very little cash flow when you can sell the station for 100 million. That equates (in today's environment to 10 million in cash flow). Kinda like the real estate market here.
 
> Valuations killed WTMI. Hard to justify 3-4 million in
> revenue and very little cash flow when you can sell the
> station for 100 million. That equates (in today's
> environment to 10 million in cash flow). Kinda like the
> real estate market here.

Valuations are also the same reason that so many major classical stations have collapsed. 105.1 WQRS in Detroit, 95.7 WFLN in Philadelphia and 97.1 WNIB (and 96.9 WNIZ) in Chicago (and likely in 2006, 102.5 WCRB in Boston) all boasted powerful signals with a low-billing format. While the AFTRA fees are usually quite cheap, the billing is unattractive when compared to the potential.
 
> > Valuations killed WTMI. Hard to justify 3-4 million in
> > revenue and very little cash flow when you can sell the
> > station for 100 million. That equates (in today's
> > environment to 10 million in cash flow). Kinda like the
> > real estate market here.
>
> Valuations are also the same reason that so many major
> classical stations have collapsed. 105.1 WQRS in Detroit,
> 95.7 WFLN in Philadelphia and 97.1 WNIB (and 96.9 WNIZ) in
> Chicago (and likely in 2006, 102.5 WCRB in Boston) all
> boasted powerful signals with a low-billing format. While
> the AFTRA fees are usually quite cheap, the billing is
> unattractive when compared to the potential.

No one reads the subject line: "(before the sale, that is)"

PROGRAMMING WISE, what killed WTMI?

I don't want to read any more about what the station was worth!

We know Bach and Roll was a bad idea, and a lot of folks were
appalled by Dee's tastes. What else on WTMI lost listeners?

73s from 954<P ID="signature">______________
Have You Seen <font color='#aabbcc' size='+1'>South Florida Radio History</font> lately?</P>
 
> No one reads the subject line: "(before the sale, that is)"
>
> PROGRAMMING WISE, what killed WTMI?
>
> I don't want to read any more about what the station was
> worth!
>
> We know Bach and Roll was a bad idea, and a lot of folks
> were
> appalled by Dee's tastes. What else on WTMI lost listeners?
>
> 73s from 954

Simple, the audience was too old. Commercial radio stations and ad agencies only care about 18-49.

I'm sure Bach & Roll was an attempt to get some of the younger demographics.

Yet another reason why commercial broadcasting in this country doesn't work properly. I know many people of all ages who do not listen to radio. There are many other choices out there.

MikeM
 
> Simple, the audience was too old. Commercial radio stations
> and ad agencies only care about 18-49.
>
> I'm sure Bach & Roll was an attempt to get some of the
> younger demographics.
>
> Yet another reason why commercial broadcasting in this
> country doesn't work properly. I know many people of all
> ages who do not listen to radio. There are many other
> choices out there.
>
> MikeM
>

I'm not so sure Bach and Roll was the problem. Prior to the sale to Cox, WTMI was trying hard to position it as not your gramma's stuffy classical station, which was the rap it took from advertisers and agencies. What evidence do you have that Bach and Roll lost listeners? Just because you didn't like the show? If WTMI's programming WAS the issue, how does that explain the demise of all the other classical music stations, none of which programmed Bach and Roll, instead favoring more traditional morning shows. I guess those didn't work so good either, huh? Prior to the sale, WTMI's ratings were quite good, maybe their best ever. Still, the ratings weren't high enough to be an "automatic" agency buy. Maybe it IS a radio problem, not being able to demonstrate to advertisers that the classical music audience is large, loyal, and financially desirable, but I'd say the the problem is the ad agencies with 25 year old female media buyers who think the sun rises and sets on Y100.
 
> I'm not so sure Bach and Roll was the problem. Prior to the
> sale to Cox, WTMI was trying hard to position it as not your
> gramma's stuffy classical station, which was the rap it took

Yes. Alvis Sherouse (Alan Corbett) was a riot, for example, but Dee Silvers
took it too far. It had been 20+ years, I think,
since WTMI sounded like your proverbial
talk-down-to-listeners classical station, if indeed
it ever really did.

> from advertisers and agencies. What evidence do you have
> that Bach and Roll lost listeners? Just because you didn't
> like the show?

The Sun-Sentinel's classical music writer (I think his
name is Lawrence Johnston) wrote a LOT about how B&R (Bach
and Roll) alienated listeners when it returned to WKAT,
sans Lyn Farmer. (Lyn was the classical half of the
program.) So I was extrapolating and wondering if B&R
and other programming also lost listeners at WTMI.

And actually, I didn't dislike B&R until it returned to WTMI.
Dee without Lyn was like Costello without Abbott, if you get
my drift. The non-classical deejay (Dee) doesn't fit in quite
as well when she's the PD as she did as a goofy sidekick.
WKAT blew it there, big time, when hiring her. And that's
not just my opinion. See LJ.

And I'm assuming that LJ knows a lot more about the classical
audience (and classical music) than I do. Will you stipulate
that?

> If WTMI's programming WAS the issue, how does
> that explain the demise of all the other classical music
> stations, none of which programmed Bach and Roll, instead
> favoring more traditional morning shows. I guess those
> didn't work so good either, huh? Prior to the sale, WTMI's
> ratings were quite good, maybe their best ever. Still, the
> ratings weren't high enough to be an "automatic" agency buy.
> Maybe it IS a radio problem, not being able to demonstrate
> to advertisers that the classical music audience is large,
> loyal, and financially desirable, but I'd say the the
> problem is the ad agencies with 25 year old female media
> buyers who think the sun rises and sets on Y100.

I agree. But doesn't anyone from the agency or the
client give the buyer any direction, any guidelines?

Also... TMI was plugging along for 30 years, delivering
for advertisers and listeners until Woody Tanger
decided to take the money and run.

I don't blame him. Cox paid big bucks based on what they
expected to make by changing format. Not related to the
profitability of a classical station.

73s from 954<P ID="signature">______________
<font color='#aabbcc' size='+1'>WTMI in 1971</font></P>
 
>
> > loyal, and financially desirable, but I'd say the the
> > problem is the ad agencies with 25 year old female media
> > buyers who think the sun rises and sets on Y100.
>
> I agree. But doesn't anyone from the agency or the
> client give the buyer any direction, any guidelines?

The advertiser, generally through their marketing department, detemines the demos on ad buys. The agency is just an intermediary.

The media planners decide how to best reach that goal. The buyers try to do it as cost efficiently as possible.
 
> Prior to the sale, WTMI's
> ratings were quite good, maybe their best ever.

12+, maybe. However, in sales demos, they were on a long downtrend.

> Still, the
> ratings weren't high enough to be an "automatic" agency buy.

In fact, they were about 18th to 23rd in 25-54 in the two years before the format switch.

> Maybe it IS a radio problem, not being able to demonstrate
> to advertisers that the classical music audience is large,
> loyal, and financially desirable,

The audience is generally small and often unresponsive to advertising.

> but I'd say the the
> problem is the ad agencies with 25 year old female media
> buyers who think the sun rises and sets on Y100.

Media buyers have NOTHING to do with the selection of demos. If Y-100 meets the Media Planning goals, and the client is buying in a demo where they are strong, it gets bought.
>
 
What killed WTMI is the fact that Miami is a big GHETTO!!!!!! not even good dance good survive here, so how can we expect classical will.





> > The WPOW thread brought out such interesting info from a
> > lot of experts, I thought I'd ask, What really killed
> > classical station WTMI?
> > (Before it was sold to Cox in 2001, that is.)
> >
> > Was it Bach & Roll?
> >
> > 73s from 954
> >
> Valuations killed WTMI. Hard to justify 3-4 million in
> revenue and very little cash flow when you can sell the
> station for 100 million. That equates (in today's
> environment to 10 million in cash flow). Kinda like the
> real estate market here.
>
 
>
> Yes. Alvis Sherouse (Alan Corbett) was a riot, for example,
> but...

Shush!! I know he is no longer with us, but he once told me that if I ever linked those two names together in public, I would be fired the next day. He valued his personal privacy.<P ID="signature">______________
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.xstreamer.net/xinfo/v2/xstreamer.8.DC0000.ai4i.png>Proud 2 B a pioneering satellite radio subs¢riber
Ai4i is always on the trailing edge of technology</a>
</P>
 
> >
> > > loyal, and financially desirable, but I'd say the the
> > > problem is the ad agencies with 25 year old female media
>
> > > buyers who think the sun rises and sets on Y100.
> >
> > I agree. But doesn't anyone from the agency or the
> > client give the buyer any direction, any guidelines?
>
> The advertiser, generally through their marketing
> department, detemines the demos on ad buys. The agency is
> just an intermediary.
>
> The media planners decide how to best reach that goal. The
> buyers try to do it as cost efficiently as possible.
>


Two days after Cox 86'd Classical on 93.1 I went out and bought a first generation XM receiver for my car. Haven't listened to commercial FM in Miami-Fort Lauderdale since (except when my car is in the shop and I have a rental). Thanks Cox for driving me off the band totally. Three Classical offerings on XM and all pretty good. Miami radio really does suck. Ain't nasty if it's true! I do however feel like a turncoat since I own three FM stations in another state. There, I listen to traditional radio.
 
> Two days after Cox 86'd Classical on 93.1 I went out and
> bought a first generation XM receiver for my car. Haven't

I should have done that.

What? And give up showbiz?

> listened to commercial FM in Miami-Fort Lauderdale since
> (except when my car is in the shop and I have a rental).
> Thanks Cox for driving me off the band totally. Three
> Classical offerings on XM and all pretty good. Miami radio
> really does suck. Ain't nasty if it's true! I do however
> feel like a turncoat since I own three FM stations in
> another state. There, I listen to traditional radio.

Are any of them classical?

If so, are they on the web?

I was listening to beethoven.com (WTMI's former owner)
today, and I can't describe it. The music is good but it
has the "look and feel" (as we say in software development)
of a college station. Why? What's it about them?

73s from 954<P ID="signature">______________
<font color='#990000'>Have A Verry Verry Merry Christmas!</P>
 
> > Yes. Alvis Sherouse (Alan Corbett) was a riot, for
> example,
> > but...
>
> Shush!! I know he is no longer with us, but he once told me
> that if I ever linked those two names together in public, I
> would be fired the next day. He valued his personal
> privacy.

Well, I never found out 'til I read his obit.

Then I wrote this:

http://www.univox.com/radio/sherouse.html

First on usenet (1994?); later on my web site.

73s from 954<P ID="signature">______________
<font color='#990000'>Have A Verry Verry Merry Christmas!</P>
 
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