what NYC needs-not hip hop or dance or a/c

[XCountry285]

An alternative rock station
A country station
We have dance covered-KTU covers it or at least should go straight up dance-screw the top 40-Z's got that covered
as for 92.3-go Rock again. I miss KROCK
101.9 go back to smooth jazz or rock but not RXP cuz RXP sucked
We have too many hip hop stations
we need a station that caters to males it's not fair!

 

[ansky212]

Yes everyone is already well aware that NYC has more redundancy in formats than pretty much any other radio market in the nation.

 

[Barry]

As long as the broadcasters believe the current formats are very profitable, as they apparently are, significant format changes seem unlikely.
For country music fans in New York that cannot receive one of the 3 suburban stations well, I recommend they get an HD radio (most are inexpensive) and check out New York Country on WLTW HD2. They have lively dj's (from IHeartRadio's Country Road), good audio, and no commercials. What's not to like about that? And thanks to a significant power boost to 4% of the analog signal last summer, their signal is quite robust in much of the metro area.
There are also four HD2's with modern/alternative rock formats. Smooth jazz is on WEMP HD2. But these have apparently not yet boosted their power, so reception is unfortunately more hit or miss. Perhaps power increases will come soon, if there is a blip of interest in these signals.

 

[d21ofnj]

An alternative rock station
A country station
We have dance covered-KTU covers it or at least should go straight up dance-screw the top 40-Z's got that covered
as for 92.3-go Rock again. I miss KROCK
101.9 go back to smooth jazz or rock but not RXP cuz RXP sucked
We have too many hip hop stations
we need a station that caters to males it's not fair!

You're better off with Internet radio (TuneIn app) Not supporting iHeartRadio.

 

[radioguy39nj]

As long as all the suits are in NY, we will continue to have some of the worst radio in the country! I only listen to WFAN or WCBS Newsradio. I've had Sirius/XM since 2003, before CBS-FM got JACK'd.

Merlin could've made 101.9 a NY centric talk station but chose to go all-news. They'll probably flip to news/talk, but not local, a Rush based talk format. We can thank Cumulus for that! News/Talk is done so much better in markets outside NY.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

There's also a difference between very profitable and just profitable, Barry. You know that, of course. At this point, no manager would want to rock either boat. Or rock the horse. As long as the paychecks don;t bounce, that's the way of radio life's future.

A country station would not do well in the Five Boroughs, but very well could have cleaned up in the suburbs.

Could have.

That was before Thunder Country and 105.5 and WJVC on Long Island, however. The new proposed Class-B country station also would have to subscribe to the outlying books, I suspect, to illustrate and validate their appeal past the initial 2.5 or so they'd get as an initial book in the overall NYC book. The suburbs is where they'd clean up, like WPLJ or WAXQ make their livings.

And to XCountry : I believe that Country -- you should excuse the expression -- skews more females than males.

Internet, not HD radio, remains not just the most faithful place but an emerging campsite.

 

[Donald_WBWH]

One day I'd like to bring a Smooth Jazz based format like this: http://www.mixcloud.com/donald-isaac/the-chillout-sessions-hour-1-seg-2-4-15-12/
to a market like NYC. Do you think there would be positive response?

 

[wpb1999]

Yes everyone is already well aware that NYC has more redundancy in formats than pretty much any other radio market in the nation.

You want to know why, because it is a huge market.

3 News
3 Talk
3 ACs
3 Hip Hops
2 Sports
3 Pop

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

Well, if you're counting WEMP and WNYM, New York City actually has 2.07 news stations and 2.03 talk stations .....

And Los Angeles lost its big Country station some time ago, no? Similar myopia and snobbery, no doubt .....

People will listen to Country. There will be a nice audience share for Smooth Jazz. There should be a nice harvest of AARP members for 50's-60's Oldies and even for the Standards. Classical has shown staying power. Traditional Jazz has a place. But instead, NYC gets Disney and business news on two huge signals which have nothing but pigeons listening. And we 'older folks' are the ones who are set in our ways, eh? Yeah, tell me about it .....
The reason there's so much redundancy is because there is only a finite number of formats available for the zeitgeist to besiege the 30-40 demo. That victimized sliver of humanity happens to be the only age group radio has listening anymore.

 

[reelyreal]

I'm so tired of hearing all this "smooth jazz will get a nice share!" nonsense. Where's your proof? Show me. Show me a study. Show me audience research. Show me a smooth jazz station anywhere pulling a nice share and making money. It's not there. That's why smooth jazz stations even in small markets (see Lancaster, PA) are going away and it's relegated to stations like noncomms and LPFMs in Bluffton, Ohio.

At least the country and alternative arguments have SOME basis.

 

[TimeIsTight]

First of all, let me assure you that I also "wish" there was alternative, country and smooth jazz on the NYC FM band, but, once again, here's why it ain't gonna happen.

You guys are forgetting that broadcasters are really in the business of selling the attention of crowds, and generate their revenue from advertisers. They have the specialized crowds they need now. What FM broadcasters are doing with the available NYC FM stations is working for them, and the most likely new FM formats will be AM formats moving over.

Any alternative, country or smooth jazz station would have to be on FM for obvious reasons. CBS has 3-FMs, two of which it won't mess with, and any FM changes will be to protect its NYC long-held AM franchise in either all-news or sports-talk. Clear Channel has five FMs that are all doing very well, and it has no reason to consider any changes. Don't forget new formats might hurt their established stations, and the formats they have were specifically selected not to compete with each other.

Cumulus appears satisfied with the soccer mom revenue from WPLJ. So that comes to nine of the available frequencies owned by the big guys in radio broadcasting, and with the exception of Clear Channel's Hip Hop WWPR, all the Big Boy owned stations appeal to the population in general.

Then we have three Spanish language stations, two of which are owned by SBS. Then three urban contemporary stations, two of which are owned by Emmis, Merlin's all-newser, and then four non-commercial stations in the commercial band. (We'll have to see who winds up with WFME when it really starts running commercials.)

So we have 16-commercial FMs, with twelve of them in the hands of multiple station owners, and the other four each stand alone...Merlin's WEMP, Cumulus WPLJ, Inner City's WBLS, Univision's WXNY.

In the NY Radio market, Hispanics represent 21-percent of the population and have 15% of the actual commercial FMs specifically targeted at them.

Blacks represent 17.4 percent of the market population and have 20-percent of the commercial frequencies targeted at them.

So, that leaves 65% of the actual commercial FMs targeted at everybody else, and, surprisingly, that fits the ethnic population numbers for the entire market.

So, which of the remaining format's should be dumped to make way for alternative, country, or smooth jazz?

Again, Clear Channel has no reason to change, and neither does CBS, unless it has to move to protect a franchise. That leaves PLJ and WEMP. And we all know about WEMP, and PLJ apparently makes money the way it is.

And when you look at specific ethnic census figures for NYC, which makes up more than half the radio market, it is understandable why Country and Alternative work in the suburbs but not in the city. In NYC only 33% of the population is non-Hispanic white, and in 49% of NYC households, a language other than English is also spoken. Most of the folks who live in NYC and the rest of the urban core are not the kind of folks who listen to Alternative or Country. It's just numbers that are easy to see, not "suits who won't take a chance," or whatever. Country music has little appeal in Harlem, and a Hip Hop radio station would not have more than a relative handful of listeners in Warren or Sussex counties in New Jersey. That's just the reality of the situation and radio stations in both areas are serving their local populations with programming that best fits the local preferences.

 

[Hardrocker9]

Correct we don't need another boring dance station, just a better dance station, equal to old Party 105 or Pulse87

 

[TonySantiago]

Correct we don't need another boring dance station, just a better dance station, equal to old Party 105 or Pulse87

Before I go here, I was ALMOST going to get on XCountry about 'KTU..but you did fix it

KTU is a rhythmic A/C; does well for its audience and has become more current based with their approach over the past few years. For the audience that they serve (basically women 25-54 that DID go to clubs when they were younger but have now settled down with families, maybe have an occasional "girls night out" but only want to hear and may dance to what is "safe"), 'KTU does well. But because of the station that they are, they are also limited to what they can do and as far as core dance fans such as myself, we're out of luck. Not saying that 'KTU is a bad station...but it's not OUR station.

We need a better dance station, definitely. But should it sound like the old Party 105 or Pulse 87 this time around? My opinion, not totally.

Right now, the wave is riding HIGH for EDM (electronic dance music). Venues such as Electric Zoo, Ultra Music Festival and Electric Daisy have been seeing a surge in crowds! With Electric Daisy coming to the New York area, you're really going to see how popular dance music has become. DJ's are now the new "rock stars". Advertisers (such as Budweiser) have noticed and are doing commercials with DJ's such as Avicii. If a dance station were to happen right now, it would be BEST to lean in this direction. Of course, you also have to retain the "New York" aspect by adding some house music and local artists, such as Kim Sozzi, in there.

Admittedly I am "split" with the freestyle genre. While the music is still VERY popular amongst its fans, even close to 30 years when it came out, it would make more sense for a dance station to remain current; perhaps an old skool freestyle show on a Sunday but that's it.

I still can't understand why corporate remains to "drag it's feet" on what is really "obvious" and in "front of their face". Denver took notice recently, and we do have a station in the region to the north (Drive FX - Hudson Valley) that are on it now. And if it's not about money, then how do the smaller guys "pay in" to this?

 

[TimeIsTight]

I still can't understand why corporate remains to "drag it's feet" on what is really "obvious" and in "front of their face".

EDM is energetic to listen to even if you aren't into clubs and dancing, but "corporate" has no place for it on the NYC FM band. It's just that everything is working fine the way it is, and they don't want to "fix" what's not broken.

Clear Channel wouldn't threaten KTU even if it had a loser station to switch, and it sure doesn't.

CBS isn't messing with what its got now, and all the way down the line, with the possible exception of WPAT.

PAT could certainly do better, and your dance format would still attract an SBS type audience. (Country would not)

The executive suite at SBS is the one place that ought to be thinking about your ideas. Let's hope they are.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

Re reelyreel,

>> I'm so tired of hearing all this "smooth jazz will get a nice share!" nonsense. Where's your proof? Show me. Show me a study. Show me audience research. Show me a smooth jazz station anywhere pulling a nice share and making money. It's not there. <<

WQCD had a nice share when it flipped. The format was working. The sales demos were not. The listeners were there. They just weren't the desired ones. It's just another demo that was lopped off the list ; another group of listeners who won't be flocking back soon. The longer it's missing, the easier it is for many to rationalize its demise.

As well, many more of those listeners would tend to be from the Five Boroughs than a Country station would draw -- PLUS it would have a decent suburban base. And unless I'm way off here, the format also had an acceptable mix of male and female audience. I personally didn't care for the format, but so what? Others did. And those were people who were once 35-49 but had the nerve to turn 49-55.

>> That's why smooth jazz stations even in small markets (see Lancaster, PA) are going away and it's relegated to stations like noncomms and LPFMs in Bluffton, Ohio. <<

Actually, that's nearly the same finding as mine, though from a different perspective, Reel. One is cause and one is effect. Years ago, Standards and Oldies got shuttled off to small, stingy-signalled AM directionals. When the ratings didn't wind up tilting Earth's axis, many were convinced that those moves were the correct ones at the time. 1130 and 1560 were the respective homes for that music. Each had sizable ratings, with WQEW less so because of attrition. Yet the formats that replaced them have resulted in virtually zero listeners for YEARS.

The basis for my popping off is rooted strictly in the belief that radio's currently available listenership is a candle that is burning at both ends. Others had been saying that same thing years before the internet and additional sources became as handy as they are. Things worked fine for decades when younger people moved into the consumer market and automatically replenished radio's listening crowd. It was understandable even then to modernize or even jettison a format such as Beautiful Music because of aging demos.

The replacements aren't there today though. For us AARP music listeners, the solution is simple -- the internet. For radio's cause, however, the solution isn't simple. I'm simply suggesting that ditching or ignoring a music format on FM with decent ratings is NOT the solution.

(Btw: Bluffton Ohio is not a major media citadel or jazz mecca, of course. But isn't it odd that a small station can support itself and get along using a format that was scuttled as 'unsuitable' by the big businesspeople who chose to enter the same profession?)

 

[MoldaMania182]

I still can't understand why corporate remains to "drag it's feet" on what is really "obvious" and in "front of their face". Denver took notice recently, and we do have a station in the region to the north (Drive FX - Hudson Valley) that are on it now. And if it's not about money, then how do the smaller guys "pay in" to this?

Drive FX is trainwreck; translating a low bit HD2 station with some of the worst processing it's almost hard to listen to. Nevermind the randomly dropped awkward weather, annoying imaging, and 8 minute loops not meant for air. If that's where dance radio is supposed to go it'll crash before it takes off. If that's the point of reference, I understand why corp is dragging it's feet as you say. Hot 107.1 and Z88.9 are much better.

 

[JerseyDude]

Yes everyone is already well aware that NYC has more redundancy in formats than pretty much any other radio market in the nation.

You want to know why, because it is a huge market.

3 News
3 Talk
3 ACs
3 Hip Hops
2 Sports
3 Pop

3 Hip-Hop stations? I know about Hot 97 and Power 105.1. What is the 3rd one?

 

[TonySantiago]

Drive FX is trainwreck; translating a low bit HD2 station with some of the worst processing it's almost hard to listen to. Nevermind the randomly dropped awkward weather, annoying imaging, and 8 minute loops not meant for air. If that's where dance radio is supposed to go it'll crash before it takes off. If that's the point of reference, I understand why corp is dragging it's feet as you say. Hot 107.1 and Z88.9 are much better.

Whistling ;D .

There's nothing I can do regarding the processing, but I really did want to help Drive FX out and I have done so in terms of getting material to them from the dance labels. And I'm just going to leave it at that. They don't need me........

 

[Donald_WBWH]

I'm so tired of hearing all this "smooth jazz will get a nice share!" nonsense. Where's your proof? Show me. Show me a study. Show me audience research. Show me a smooth jazz station anywhere pulling a nice share and making money. It's not there. That's why smooth jazz stations even in small markets (see Lancaster, PA) are going away and it's relegated to stations like noncomms and LPFMs in Bluffton, Ohio.

@reelyreal: You are right, the Smooth Jazz format has had a recent rough stretch on commercial stations, but I argue that's because it wasn't presented right. If you listen to a Broadcast Architecture Smooth Jazz Network Station (http://www.smoothjazz1025.com/main.html) and compare it to what I play on WBWH (http://tunein.com/radio/WBWH-993-s39112/#tab2-tab) then I think you'll hear a difference. Also note that we don't call the station "smooth jazz" and that it includes "smooth vocals" from a wide variety of genres (Blue Eyed Soul, Triple-A, Jazz, R&B to name a few) as well as Chill music.

I can present some arguments that there is a calling for this type of music.

1) New York City's #1 rated station is a "soft" format (WLTW/106.7 FM), so maybe there is hope for "soft" or "neutral" formats. Although, people in my age group (I am 20) are probably listening to one of the top 40/pop/hip hop stations in NYC.
2) In Orlando, before it went off the air last summer (the local owners retired and sold the station) WLOQ 103.1 was consistently in the top 10-15 ratings wise.
3) In Phoenix, last year 95.5 KYOT switched to a Rhythmic Oldies format from Smooth Jazz (BA Network). Now, this new format (KYOT) is getting beat out by the Mainstream Jazz/NPR station (KJZZ), so obviously the abandoned Smooth Jazz listeners switched over to KJZZ. http://www.radio-info.com/markets/phoenix
4) In Seattle, (last year - I believe) 98.9 KWJZ switched from Smooth Jazz to a Modern AC format (now KLCK). KLCK is now being (slightly) beat out ratings wise by KPLU, an mainstream jazz/NPR/news station. Again, the KWJZ listeners must have migrated to KPLU.
5) Smooth AC stations KTWV (Los Angeles) http://www.radio-info.com/markets/los-angeles
and recently switched WNWV (Cleveland) http://www.radio-info.com/markets/cleveland
both are doing quite well in their respective cities.

The station that I would have would be comparable to KTWV or WNWV's playlist, but with more Smooth Jazz, more unique vocals and Chill music. The vocals and chill music would be the thing that would make it stand out, I believe.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

@ Donald WBWH :

Yours and Reel's and my comments appear to dovetail, each from slightly different references points. You suggest that the performances of those stations is why they fell short, though, so we disagree there. The feeling here is that it was all about the demos and nothing else.

The basis for this suspicion is traced largely to the time in the late Eighties when virtually every Beautiful Music station dropped the format. I doubt that at age 20 you remember that, lol. Many, if not most of them, switched to some form of soft rock/easy favorites. In effect, it was just a matter of a few months before an observer at the time could accuse the previous format of being 'a failure everywhere'. (And lol : in full stride with my earlier grumpy accusation, the AM-FM where I worked reprised the B/M format a year or so later. On its directional AM. The move resulted in a 0.4. Wow, what a shock).

So I don't feel that those Smooth Jazz formats all disappeared from the face of the dial because of poor execution. The ratings were working. The demos were not. But the small print in all of those mass, lemminglike changes -- monkey see; monkey do -- was overlooked in the frenzy to skew younger. That oversight ignored the fact that radio increasingly was finding the serach for ANY younger listeners, music or other, harder and harder.

As I mentioned, I have no slot car in this race. I'm a fan of Jazz from the 1958-1963 era, then maybe I'll accept the ZZZ age, and then settle for the Smooth Jazz genre. I just get my fur up when any reasonably healthy music format is replaced with a non-music format.