What should KIXI do next?

[Cobra14]

Sorry you replied while I was writing that last post.

 

[fordranger797]

No classic hits station sound good on AM. They play mostly 80's songs, and by the 80's essentially every listener to CHR radio was listening to FM.

Yes, oldies attracts people well into their 70's and advertisers don't seek that audience.

Not the point I was trying to make, though it’s my fault for not clarifying. I was trying to say that 60’s and 70’s hits sound great on AM. Groups like The Supremes and the Beatles sound perfectly fine on AM. Obviously radio has moved on from 60’s hits, but I certainly wouldn’t let AM stop me from listening if these groups were suddenly heard on the AM dial again.

 

[davideduardo]

“No station is tampering with the system since what the PPM does is detect what people are listening to”

If some groups are running the added device and some aren’t, that would mean some stations are getting the results of the modified data, as a result of the device and the stations that are running without it are getting the prior data that was considered inaccurate due to the lack of or lesser data in the audio.

There is, and never was, proof of this. And every station can have a Voltair just by ordering one. This is no different than when some stations had an Optimod and some did not... or even earlier, some stations had an Audimax/Volumax and some did not.

My question is, how do they equalize data from both groups, with or without adding the Votron Voltaire or whatever? Can they go “okay this group has one of those things installed, this group doesn’t use one of those things, we’ll adjust our measurement data accordingly” or is there an advantage to running that device still?

This is no different than stations increasing the compression and leveling of their Optimod or Omnia or Wheatstone. Every major station has one of those or something similar.

 

[Cobra14]

Thank you for your professionalism in your responses. I like that you didn’t put me down for asking or try to make me feel lesser for asking. With that said, I have a final question. If you were operating a station group in a market where it was known that other stations in the market were using the device, would you run the device Voltaire Viltron or whatever on your stations? I won’t be offended if you choose not to answer.

 

[davideduardo]

Thank you for your professionalism in your responses. I like that you didn’t put me down for asking or try to make me feel lesser for asking. With that said, I have a final question. If you were operating a station group in a market where it was known that other stations in the market were using the device, would you run the device Voltaire Viltron or whatever on your stations? I won’t be offended if you choose not to answer.

I would use it, but with a moderate level setting. When set to high, I find it audible and annoying. Again, I'd buy the latest Optimod if I felt it might make me more listenable. It's the same reason why I run a Ryzen Threadripper cpu and not an Intel 286!

 

[xmtrland]

Optimod and Omnia even have the PPM encoding built into some processors, which helps with low level audio. I personally like the newest AM Optimod XPN.

In the last ratting book. KEXP did very well compared to some commercial FM stations stations. Is KEXP using a Voltair or gamming the PPM system. I highly doubt it.

 

[boombox4]

I think one of the reasons a lot of talk shows use bumper music is to provide for the encoding to go out over the air. Although bumper music is cool to hear, depending on the music being played. Livens up the talk broadcast.

 

[davideduardo]

I think one of the reasons a lot of talk shows use bumper music is to provide for the encoding to go out over the air. Although bumper music is cool to hear, depending on the music being played. Livens up the talk broadcast.

There is not enough time during just the bumpers for enough encoding to be sent to make a difference. To get credit in PPM you must get one or more detections in each of five different minutes during a quarter hour.

 

[davideduardo]

Optimod and Omnia even have the PPM encoding built into some processors, which helps with low level audio. I personally like the newest AM Optimod XPN.

The interface for the PPM encoding function allows for the software based encoding to work seamlessly. But it does not do audio enhancement like the Voltaire; what any AGC/Peak Limiter/Compressor does is lower the dynamic range to create enhanced apparent loudness. We've been doing that since the first leveling amplifiers in the 40's, but the newest ones "look ahead" to avoid nasty compression and square waves... a whole different subject.

In the last ratting book. KEXP did very well compared to some commercial FM stations stations. Is KEXP using a Voltair or gamming the PPM system. I highly doubt it.

Good point.

 

[Cobra14]

One would need to look in the KEXP equipment rack, might see it on an analyzer or listen carefully. Like David said if the thing is turned up too high you can hear it in the audio. Is KEXP gaming the system? It’s a non com so they don’t have the same commercial breaks every hour that people tune out of like the commercial stations do. From what I’ve read and heard commercial stations program their logs so the advertisements run at specific times in the hour so people stay tuned in for periods of time long enough to give the station credit for the listening. If the advertising isn’t scheduled in the right part of the hour peoples tendencies to tune away during ads cause the station to lose credit for the listening segment even if they were in fact listening. Something about straddling the quarter hour or words to that effect comes to mind. I’m sure it can be elaborated on in fine tuned detail. I don’t work in radio or broadcasting just conversed with people who have or do still. It’s an interest of mine and why I’m here reading all this stuff and asking questions. Have to give KEXP a lot of credit though. They are doing well given the smaller signal and style of programming.

 

[xmtrland]

My comment about PPM encoding in processors is that if the PPM encoding is done after the AGC or compressor in the Optimod XPN, thats better than putting the encoder at the very front end of the processor.

I have seen some stations put the PPM encoder after their final limiter/processor to the transmitter to give the PPM unit more consistent audio level to encode. But I feel in doing that they lose some peak control. the PPM encoder or PPM/Voltair combo was not meant to be the final piece of equipment before the transmitter.

Cobra, it's good that you are trying to educate yourself about radio. But I would say the way your approach in some of the discussion, is like arguing with some one who rides a bike for a living, versus just reading about how to ride a bike and arguing with them. To really understand you need to climb on the bike and ride it, and just not on flat ground, you need to go up hills and take corners steering the bike. Maybe even trying out different bikes, because not all bikes are the same.

 

[semoochie]

My comment about PPM encoding in processors is that if the PPM encoding is done after the AGC or compressor in the Optimod XPN, thats better than putting the encoder at the very front end of the processor.

I have seen some stations put the PPM encoder after their final limiter/processor to the transmitter to give the PPM unit more consistent audio level to encode. But I feel in doing that they lose some peak control. the PPM encoder or PPM/Voltair combo was not meant to be the final piece of equipment before the transmitter.

Cobra, it's good that you are trying to educate yourself about radio. But I would say the way your approach in some of the discussion, is like arguing with some one who rides a bike for a living, versus just reading about how to ride a bike and arguing with them. To really understand you need to climb on the bike and ride it, and just not on flat ground, you need to go up hills and take corners steering the bike. Maybe even trying out different bikes, because not all bikes are the same.

That sounds like a great analogy!

 

[powers]

David is right about the AM stations only being there to legally feed the FM translators. There are very few stand alone AMs in the US that are still doing (English) music formats. The only reason Canadian AMs are still somewhat viable in the field is that for whatever reason the CRTC up until a few years ago mandated that dominant formats including music still needed to be on AM. Once those rules were relaxed or eliminated, most owners moved the big formats to FM and shut down the AMs. It hasn't happened completely yet, so there are still some larger scale music formats on AM and there is still a fair amount of AM listening, but Canada will catch up, probably sooner than we think. I remember an episode of How I Met Your Mother, where the character Robin was an 80s type pop star in the mid-90s, and it was mentioned that Canada was a few years behind the rest of the world in music and fashion.... so perhaps the current AM status is equal to the 90s or early 2000s in the US

 

[Kelly A]

David is right about the AM stations only being there to legally feed the FM translators. There are very few stand alone AMs in the US that are still doing (English) music formats.

In reality, most translators never reach even what's considered the early fringe coverage of their AM counterpart. Depending on the situation, the translator may be nothing more than an LPFM-coverage-equivalent simulcast of the AM station programming. Sure there are exceptions, but it would be a tough business model to rely on a single FM translator as what amounts to your primary station.

 

[davideduardo]

In reality, most translators never reach even what's considered the early fringe coverage of their AM counterpart. Depending on the situation, the translator may be nothing more than an LPFM-coverage-equivalent simulcast of the AM station programming. Sure there are exceptions, but it would be a tough business model to rely on a single FM translator as what amounts to your primary station.

In lots of smaller markets a well built translator can cover everything that matters. If you are in Valdosta, GA, or Albuquerque of Prescott, AZ or Lima, OH a translator... particularly on a tower over 500 feet, is quite viable. At around that point, they become comparable with a conforming Class A operation.

Remember, Urban One's Class A in DC with 2,900 watts at under 500 feet is 11th in revenue and 9th in 25-54 ratings. So a good translator in Roanoke or Fredricksburg or Harrisonburg or the like can do very well.

 

[boombox4]

David is right about the AM stations only being there to legally feed the FM translators. There are very few stand alone AMs in the US that are still doing (English) music formats. The only reason Canadian AMs are still somewhat viable in the field is that for whatever reason the CRTC up until a few years ago mandated that dominant formats including music still needed to be on AM. Once those rules were relaxed or eliminated, most owners moved the big formats to FM and shut down the AMs. It hasn't happened completely yet, so there are still some larger scale music formats on AM and there is still a fair amount of AM listening, but Canada will catch up, probably sooner than we think. I remember an episode of How I Met Your Mother, where the character Robin was an 80s type pop star in the mid-90s, and it was mentioned that Canada was a few years behind the rest of the world in music and fashion.... so perhaps the current AM status is equal to the 90s or early 2000s in the US

Canada also has some large swaths of sparsely populated territory, where an AM can cover their listening area fairly well. For example, CBK alone covers most of Saskatchewan and Alberta, with just one transmitter.

They also have a higher rate of unionism and longer tradition of protecting jobs that also might come into play -- their government might be more sensitive to things like that. Here in the US that isn't the case.

 

[boombox4]

Have to give KEXP a lot of credit though. They are doing well given the smaller signal and style of programming.

You also have to look at the general demographics in their signal's target area -- central Seattle is tech-bro heavy, and Seattle proper -- around 700K people -- is around 85% white. It's a bit more conducive to a potential audience for the alt music they play. They also have the money to throw at the station, as the average salary inside the Seattle borders is around $100K a year.

 

[fordranger797]

Canada also has some large swaths of sparsely populated territory, where an AM can cover their listening area fairly well. For example, CBK alone covers most of Saskatchewan and Alberta, with just one transmitter.

They also have a higher rate of unionism and longer tradition of protecting jobs that also might come into play -- their government might be more sensitive to things like that. Here in the US that isn't the case.

Interestingly enough CBC is really pushing to eliminate their AM presence these days. Not sure how much longer we’ll see their AM assets continue to operate, but I suppose in a case like CBK (or CBW), they can probably justify leaving it on.

 

[davideduardo]

Canada also has some large swaths of sparsely populated territory, where an AM can cover their listening area fairly well. For example, CBK alone covers most of Saskatchewan and Alberta, with just one transmitter.

But Canada did not exclusively rely on the big AMs to cover less-dense population areas. In a huge percentage of rural location they used AM relays connected to the communications systems of the national rail network or via satellite. Those AMs ran around 50 watts, but they have been replaced with FM almost in their totality using railroad microwave towers to mount antennas.

The 1070 CBC clear channel in New Brunswick was closed some time ago, and the Francophone service on another 1-B clear channel in Chicoutimi (sp?) was also closed down. Even the CBC AMs in Toronto are gone, moving content to FM.

Canada adopted a slow migration to FM, while Mexico did a very "instantaneous" plan to move about 600 AM stations, leaving many states with no AM at all or just one or two, often in indigenous languages, in rugged, isolated areas.

 

[davideduardo]

Interestingly enough CBC is really pushing to eliminate their AM presence these days. Not sure how much longer we’ll see their AM assets continue to operate, but I suppose in a case like CBK (or CBW), they can probably justify leaving it on.

Those are likely considered vital enough to leave, but from Sydney to Vancouver, many of the major market CBC AMs migrated and the secondary repeaters and rural services are nearly all on FM now.