What should we call it...It sounds like a duck...

[Scooter Lesley]

Some think that it's just me, but there are many that point-out the acute Boobisums in the Radio/Music industry. I felt that it was wrong for Run DMC to be inducted into The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame(?), yet KISS is never in the running. However, once it was explained to me that it was allegedly owned, ran, and otherwise completely governed by Rollling Stone magazine, I needed nothing further. To me, it is both amusing, and respectful that in 1994, a three piece punk band named Green Day could score such a huge Hit with their Excremently entitled album, "Dookie"; a loud in-yo-face Punk masterpiece. However, if you rip that CD to your hard drive, using Windows Media Player, all the song titles will sync-up, but for some stupid reason, the auto-genre labels it "Alternative". Today, "Alternative", is such a misused generic term,...when something is not properly understood. The term "Alternative" first surfaced as part of the college & underground radio movements of the early 80's. REM was the first U.S. Alternative band, while U2 netted the European honors. The sounds on those stations was an Alternative to what you normally heard on commercial radio; namely Top 40 or later CHR(Top 30). It's all part of youth to have your own thing! The band BLONDIE began in 1976, and was dub "New Wave". However, after ripping their first two albums, "Alternative" again genericly surfaces, yet their '82 release, "The Hunter" gets "Rock". (I smell a Pencilneck!) Pink Floyd's "Atom Heart Mother" gets "Pop", but "Echoes" nets the double nintendo of "Rock & Roll". It's Alternative, Adult Alternative, Sandwich Alternative, Deoderant Alternative(with wings). It's Alternative.....ALTERNATIVE...TO WHAT?

 

[awp69]

Well, we kind of had a debate about this in another thread, but I do agree that the "alternative" movement generally started with college radio stations back in the '80s. But it grew bigger when grunge hit the scene in the '90s and became a "format". But to me, I think "alternative" is really a mix of genres and I agree with the sentiment in another thread that it shouldn't be called alternative "rock" because it shouldn't just be about rock. Back in the college days and even the first alternative commercial stations played everything from reggae to grunge and everything in between -- electronic bands like Depeche Mode, mope rock ala The Smiths, punk dating all the way back the Sex Pistols. And it can, and should, be used to play anything that's slightly off beat that may not fit in the "mainstream".

People bash today's alternative because groups like Fun., Mumford & Sons and Of Monsters & Men that became popular on CHR. But does anyone seriously think that those bands would have saw the light of day if it weren't for alternative stations? Mumford & Sons may be classified more as bluegrass or country, but I'd have to say they're alternative country. A station like WSSL would not have played Mumford & Sons -- they do now because it's popular, but I don't think they would have otherwise. Fun. is probably the most pop of the groups I named (and a group that got so overplayed everywhere that I'm completely sick of them), but yet I still think they were quirky and any PD at a Top 40 station probably wouldn't have given them a second listen. Alternative stations did play Fun. first. Hell, they even played Adele first -- which again the soulful blues of "Rolling in the Deep" was hardly material that seemed like it would be played on the same station as Katy Perry or Lady Gaga.

Today's alternative is, admittedly, a bit more mainstream, but even with the bands I named the vast majority of the groups wouldn't be played anywhere else. Where would you hear a group like M83? It's not rock enough for die-hard rock stations, but it's far from being pop. Same goes for a wide variety of other groups like the Yeah Yeah Yeahs. Active rock for a while invaded alt stations and that, IMO, was a bad time for alternative because it went down the path of people thinking that just having a hard rock sound was enough to be alternative.

I like the fact that today's stations, like X98.5, play folksier bands like Family of the Year to more electronic sounds like The Naked and Famous to more rock of The Strokes. Alternative should be music that is a bit different from the norm. That doesn't mean it won't gain popularity. Even grunge crossed over to CHR.

Anyway, it's a bit of sore subject for me because I think too many people do have different meanings for it and complain if it's not all electric guitars. It wasn't way back in the beginning when bands like R.E.M., 10,000 Maniacs and Ziggy Marley were played on college stations. So why should it be now?

 

[carolinaradio]

Well, we kind of had a debate about this in another thread, but I do agree that the "alternative" movement generally started with college radio stations back in the '80s. But it grew bigger when grunge hit the scene in the '90s and became a "format". But to me, I think "alternative" is really a mix of genres and I agree with the sentiment in another thread that it shouldn't be called alternative "rock" because it shouldn't just be about rock. Back in the college days and even the first alternative commercial stations played everything from reggae to grunge and everything in between -- electronic bands like Depeche Mode, mope rock ala The Smiths, punk dating all the way back the Sex Pistols. And it can, and should, be used to play anything that's slightly off beat that may not fit in the "mainstream".

Agree. However, I DO think a line does have to be drawn. "Thrift Shop" does not belong on Alternative IMO. I guess it could be alternative/underground hip hop (not that familiar with the format), but it was an instant tune-out for me. I think different musical styles can fit together well on the format, but rap is just pressing it big time, IMO. It obviously didn't strike a note with the listeners, because it didn't peak very highly on the chart. I think it would have found its way on to CHR without the Alternative format. Heck, even dubstep has made its way in to the format ("Madness" and "Too Close"). I don't mind this stuff being played, but I DO mind it being played when you say you play "rock." Minor pet peeve, I guess, but I don't consider the Alex Clare track rock.

I like the fact that today's stations, like X98.5, play folksier bands like Family of the Year to more electronic sounds like The Naked and Famous to more rock of The Strokes. Alternative should be music that is a bit different from the norm. That doesn't mean it won't gain popularity. Even grunge crossed over to CHR.

I've actually heard some tracks that didn't chart/start on Alternative, really, but seem like they would have done well on Alternative if they had been released to the format initially. "The A-Team" by Ed Sheeran and "Home" by Phillip Phillips. The latter is trying to chart on Alt., but I'm not a fan of crossing over from CHR to Alternative. Sort of defeats the purpose of the format. If "Home" had gone straight to Alternative before CHR (which wouldn't have happened due to his Idol win), I think it might have had some hefty potential.

I'm fed up with Fun. also. Can't escape them anywhere. That's why I'm sick of the Alternative-to-CHR crossover, but I guess I'm in the minority because to the majority of CHR listeners, those tracks are new. Of Monsters & Men was charting big on Alternative last summer and has just recently gotten on the CHR chart. If it hits big, that'll mean almost a whole year of that song getting heavy airplay. Like I said on the Alternative board, it will be interesting to hear what these new groups with big crossover success's next albums sound like. I wonder if they will have even more of a pop sound to maintain their crossover status, thus potentially alienating their Alternative base.

 

[awp69]

Just wanted to say that I do agree that there does have to be some lines drawn. Rap is an interesting topic on its own when it comes to alternative. "Thrift Shop" is a song that I felt was too urban for alternative. But some rap can fit. Honestly can't even remember any of their songs but the Wu Tang Clan was not very urban and were actually pretty artsy (and controversial) when they were on alt stations like 99X. While not straight rap, 21 Pilots sound a bit too commericialized pop, but still fit in better than "Thrift Shop". Not a big fan and X98.5 got some flack for playing them too much, but I can also see the argument that the Beastie Boys fit the alternative mold (that feedback seemed to hit as I can't remember the last time I heard them on X.)

Whatever you want to say, alternative is still largely aimed at a white male audience so urban leaning rap won't fly IMO.

 

[TheBigA]

In Duke Ellington's autobiography "Music Is My Mistress," he said the immortal words: "There are two kinds of music: good and bad" This comment came out of the criticism he received for writing serious orchestral works like "Black & Tan Fantasy." Classical fans cringed at the idea that a jazz musician was crossing over into their world. Some of that criticism was probably racial, a black man having success in the white man's world.

The reality is that the hallmark of a great artist is to break free of the confines imposed on him by the outside world. Kenny G didn't invent smooth jazz. He just plays soprano sax. Radio created the genre and the format, and just as easily killed it. No one becomes a musician to become an Adult Contemporary star. That's a format created by radio. I've interviewed hundreds of artists who've crossed over into other genres, and to them, it's merely bringing their music to new fans. Nothing more. That's what the members of Fun. said backstage at the Grammy Awards this year. Same with Mumford & Sons, who are currently getting airplay on a country station, KILT-FM in Houston.

The challenge for radio programmers today is to look beyond the labels and the categories of the past, and instead program to demographics and lifestyles. If that means using rap style lyrics in country music, as Jason Aldean is now doing, then so be it. It brings his music to a young white male audience who wants a type of bravado to their music. Jason isn't going to apologize or change. It's what he does, so deal with it. Same with Taylor Swift, who sought to duplicate the crossover success of Shania Twain with her latest album. The fact is that people aren't simply fans of formats or genres, but fans of artists and music. Radio and the music industry wants to impose categories for their own purposes. But the smart radio programmers are the ones who can identify songs that will appeal to their audience regardless of genre, and use that audience to increase ratings.

 

[GordonSims]

But the smart radio programmers are the ones who can identify songs that will appeal to their audience regardless of genre, and use that audience to increase ratings.

BigA, I totally agree. You are spot on!

Now, how does that programmer know so well what his/her P1s want while he is also in charge of a news-talk, a sports talk, an AC, a country, and a CHR??
And by "in charge" yall know I mean music logs, promotions, at least one on-air shift or voicetracking, a bunch of production too, etc

 

[awp69]

The challenge for radio programmers today is to look beyond the labels and the categories of the past, and instead program to demographics and lifestyles.

I agree in general with that statement, but obviously there should be some limitations. For instance, you shouldn't hear a jazz instrumental on a rock station regardless of your demographics. But as for "formats" themselves, changes that sway one way or another -- like your example of rap lyrics in a country song -- is indeed something that PD's need to adapt to and determine if it's right for their listeners.

 

[awp69]

Like I said on the Alternative board, it will be interesting to hear what these new groups with big crossover success's next albums sound like.  I wonder if they will have even more of a pop sound to maintain their crossover status, thus potentially alienating their Alternative base.

I was thinking about this and with the bands that have crossed over (like Fun., Grouplove, Mumford & Sons and Of Monsters & Men in particular), it's the sound itself of those bands that has been absorbed and made more popular via CHR. Even if they're next albums sound similar, it may not be that the band became more pop - just that Top 40 evolved to include that sound.

There are some examples, like Imagine Dragons and Muse, where they may have a song or two that hit big on CHR (well, Madness is really just starting to hit CHR), but the remainder of the songs on their albums are not pop-friendly. Imagine Dragons' "Radioactive" is not a song that I could see being picked up by CHR (but who knows these days). I think Imagine Dragons may be the most "at risk" for changing their sound to go in a more pop direction.

Muse has been around long enough that songs like "Madness" were more of an attempt to grow musically (with a little dubstep), but I don't see them changing their general overall rock / rock anthem sound overall. People forget that Radiohead's first album was by far their most accessible and most pop friendly album, but they actually went in the opposite direction and their albums have generally been less accessible to the point where even alternative stations play very few songs after their first album.


Anyway, my first point was really what I wanted to say is that it may be CHR evolving to include a certain sound more than a band's sophmore album being any more "pop" than it was. There are artists that do seem to purposely "jump the shark" like Taylor Swift who clearly seems to be wanting to be more pop than country now.

Sorry...that kind of got off topic...

 

[upstate29651]

Active Rock didn't ruin Alternative, what Big A said above did. Radio didn't create formats, consultants did. Consultants made choices to plug songs in holes because they "felt right". In the end, alternative has become "CHR 2" & totally unlistenable.

G

 

[awp69]

In the end, alternative has become "CHR 2" & totally unlistenable.

While there may be some more CHR friendly songs, I completely disagree with this statement. Take a look at X98.5's playlist, for instance, and, yes, they'll play things like Fun. or Goyte, but there's still PLENTY of harder alternative rock that would not be played on CHR. And I still maintain that even groups like Fun. wouldn't have been played on CHR if it hadn't been on alternative first.

What one person thinks is "unlistenable" is a matter of opinion. You probably would have hated the first alternative stations back in the late '80s like WHFS in Washington. There may have been some punk, but by and large, alternative WAS generally softer rock/folksier songs/electronic bands that were a bit different than what was played on CHR or mainstream rock stations.

I'd say 90% of what X98.5 plays will not be heard on CHR. And to say that it's "CHR 2" is hogwash.

 

[Scooter Lesley]

Well,...I began this Topic pointing out the massive misuse of the term "Alternative", and felt that many billowing clouds of Rock music dee-cusion were on there way. However, and much to may dismay, I get coutless overflowing wicker baskets of Philoss-so-feee, Duke Ellington quotes, the mention of that Awww-ful word...Jazz, and a polished brass tribute to that Boofy-haird Snake Charmer, Kenny G.!
Can anyone out there discuss Rock product, and hold the Munfart, sons, daughters, and X-wives....or DMB anything?? Sheeeesh, you'd think that is all that is out there! What about Grace Potter, Hunter Valentine, Gary Carter Jr., Raphael Saadig, Kimballz-Jameson

 

[TheBigA]

What about Grace Potter, Hunter Valentine, Gary Carter Jr., Raphael Saadig, Kimballz-Jameson

Grace Potter? I thought she was a country singer. And Gary Carter used to catch for the Expos.

 

[awp69]

Can anyone out there discuss Rock product, and hold the Munfart, sons, daughters, and X-wives....or DMB anything?? Sheeeesh, you'd think that is all that is out there! What about Grace Potter, Hunter Valentine, Gary Carter Jr., Raphael Saadig, Kimballz-Jameson

Well, I can agree with you to a point. I can say that X98.5 plays more new artists that I've never heard of before than any other stations I've listened to. BUT there are a ton of indie artists that seemed to still get shunned to stations like WNCW and/or college stations. What's ironic is that X98.5 promoted and gave out tickets for Grace Potter's recent performance here, but never played her.

Anyway, guess it's all about promotion from labels, etc.

 

[Scooter Lesley]

I guess that we can only assume that the steady diet of stir-fried Toefu, and diet peach wine coolers have blunted any sharpness that TheBigA allegedly once had. With many of the artists mentioned performing countless times on TV, including the highly visable late night circuit, to not have heard of Gary Clark, Jr.,...the living/breathing ghost of the late David Ruffin, Rapheal Saadig, and the mind-blowing VINTAGE TROUBLE,...means that you just don't Keep Up! "Kimball-Jamison" is being called by many experts...The Rock Album of the year 2012: A twin vocal attack by Toto's Bobby Kimball, and Survivor's Jimi Jamison. The Album is a must hear for any Rock fan! Grace Potter's career took a wrong turn, thanks to someone's stupid decision to duet with Kenny Chesney. Country's little balding weenie was have some image issues(for those that know)and the association with her was suppose to remedy that. The awww-ful song in now in the past, as it aided neither party. However, Grace will bounce back. For those who have never seen Grace Potter,...imagine, if you will, Heidi Klum, armed with a flyin' V guitar. Built like a brick outhouse, and can sing her ass off,...which is already peeking from her short dress, that can only be discribed as:
Gee,...a nice dress, it's just ashame that they didn't have it in her size...Female Rock & Roll, HAWTT as a lit match!
These are only a few new Rock acts that are receiving airplay from various Satellite Radio channels. How can they see the value, but commerical radio can't. THINK TANK members, there are many speculations to ponder. What say Ye?

 

[clemsonbloke]

Well I've long said that there had to be more rock acts than what the suits would have us think. I, for one, cannot understand why so much great music is just not given a chance or even promoted. It seems these "new music" stations will only promote or play stuff that is the manufactured crap that either American Idol produced or some other mass production house with the Simon Cowell's of the world. Of course is there some sort of payola deal too where companies are paying stations to play only certain said manufactured crap? I thought that was illegal? Well we all know that money talks and bullshit walks and that nobody really cares about the legality of it. I'm not a satellite subscriber so theres not as many choices to find "new" rock. I got upset with the supposed "new" music stations a long time ago and just tuned out. I figured I had more than enough CD's, LP's, and Tapes to satisfy my musical needs while these stations conducted all their musical experiments with the manufactured pop and rap.

 

[TheBigA]

Well I've long said that there had to be more rock acts than what the suits would have us think. I, for one, cannot understand why so much great music is just not given a chance or even promoted.

It depends. The people who make the music (writers and artists) want to be paid. There is a system set up to make sure they get paid if their music is played. But if they don't register, then their music isn't licensed for airplay. If a radio station plays a song or an artist that isn't licensed, they could be sued. So they stick with music that is officially licensed. That means a lot of legal work for artists.

Anyone can make music, and use their own distribution to get it out. But if they want to use someone else's distribution, such as a radio station or even Pandora, it needs to be registered.

As for promotion, that means hiring a promoter. Any artist can hire an indie promoter to work their music. There are lots of them out there, and you can get a list from organizations like the Americana Music Association. If your music is made for a record label, then the label hires the promoter.

 

[Scooter Lesley]

Well,...here the Flyin' Fudgecake we go again, with the Fill-us-all-sofical spoutings of TheBigAerostoddle...making about as much sense as a screendoor on a submarine. Radio stations can't be sued for playing non-registered music. Half of all local, and regional Gospel is non-registered...They don't do it for the money! If you search this list of topics, you'll find the one that I started about Payola. I didn't have many takers on it...scared everyone to the point of soiling their undergarments! Well,...Payola is out there, and it's about that time again for the FCC to launch their sting. Huge Fine$...the last time 'round, but no one wants to deeee-scuss that neither! The truth is...if a one time major/successful artist/act such as Hall & Oates, rolls off their RCA contract, and takes a seven year vacation, they're done. Wrong-o! Well rested, and no longer under the thumb, they record for "Themselves", and launch their own label; "Watchout". It is here that registered product gets the snub, because it ain't(no longer) padding the pockets of the Suits. They can pay for Promotion, and/or Distribution deals, but as I said, they work for themselves. Does Hall & Oates need the money? No, but...this-MUSIC is what they do. In 2003, they released "Do It For Love". In all my years both as a Collector, and a Broadcaster, I have never heard better,...from them. Here is a non-major label Masterpiece of Pure Pop Magic...every song! Currently, in this market, neither of the two AC's grant any airplay to this product. In 1982, we had an LP-Album stay six weeks at #1. Stations is Altlanta were playing up to five different cuts...from this "New Wave" slam dunk: "Beauty & The Beat" by the...all female band, The Go-Go's. Here, you might only hear, the single, "Our Lips Are Sealed", but the story is...what the Album did! Clearly, there is plenty of Great product out there, yet the Pencilnecks only want you to here what they, and the Majors want to sell. No, I am not the only one that sees it this way!

 

[TheBigA]

Radio stations can't be sued for playing non-registered music. Half of all local, and regional Gospel is non-registered...They don't do it for the money!

We're not talking about gospel choirs. We're talking about bands singing their own songs.

Look if you have real facts about payola, take it to the FCC. Otherwise it's just hot air.

 

[freqdev]

big a has is right

 

[Scooter Lesley]

Well,...well,...well, here we go again with Freqdev agreeing with whatever TheBigA has to say. So, let's dub him BigA, Junior! Here again, my faithful readers, and/or members of The Think Tank...we have still yet again...a credibility problem. Freqy agrees with his royal A-ness, who is merely repeating some philisophicallllllllll horse manure, spouted by a nearby Consultant, at an earlier time. So, let me see if I can drag these two outta their quicksand qwagmire of Boob-ism:
In 1988, Dyana Daniels debuted a one hour specialty show named; "An Hour From Atlanta To Charlotte". Sunday nights, 9p-10p, on 101.1 WCKN-FM(later WROQ). This was a very successful show, with her hosting 1988-(April)1996. The then PD tried a few different hosts, after Dy resigned, but no good fit. In June, I was hired to host, and did so until November, when my Dad became sick. After me, there were (I believe) three more hosts, with the show ending sometime around 2003. During the total run, most of the music played was unregistered, and at no time was the station sued. Now, it should be abundantly clear as to how foolish TheBigA, and BigA, Jr. LOOK!