What this election means to talkradio

[Elephant]

I know that 12+ are irrelevant.

Thanks for the explanation. Don't know if that would be the case in Columbus, Ohio, though. Columbus is definitely a Democrat town, but the suburban counties are not. Outside of Franklin County is definitely RED, and that's close to a million people. Not so with the Portland market. Multnomah County was 77% for Obama, and the surrounding counties were also well into the Obama camp. By comparison, Franklin County was 59% for Obama, with surrounding counties very much into the McCain camp. Even Cincinnati's Hamilton County is now blue, with surrounding suburban counties in Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky going for McCain. That was a GOP stronghold since Noah built the ark.

 

[kd8hho]

I know that 12+ are irrelevant.

Thanks for the explanation. Don't know if that would be the case in Columbus, Ohio, though. Columbus is definitely a Democrat town, but the suburban counties are not. Outside of Franklin County is definitely RED, and that's close to a million people. Not so with the Portland market. Multnomah County was 77% for Obama, and the surrounding counties were also well into the Obama camp. By comparison, Franklin County was 59% for Obama, with surrounding counties very much into the McCain camp. Even Cincinnati's Hamilton County is now blue, with surrounding suburban counties in Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky going for McCain. That was a GOP stronghold since Noah built the ark.

well look at fact. urban city "cincy,columbus " has alot of "minoritys" who would vote for obama due to race. of cource its gonna turn blue.

 

[SeanMGilbow]

Sean...As I posted on the Columbus board, it's disingenuous to say that WVKO beat WYTS when both stations 12+ number are below a 1 share. A 0.6 and a 0.8 are statistically tied. And, such a small sample is unreliable. WYTS's 3 book average is about a 0.6, while WVKO's is about a 0.7.

I will amend that statement if you can provide us with M-F 6a-7p cume and AQH numbers for both stations. Let's see which ones actually have the strengths and weaknesses. Weekends are less importamnt, but a Sat-Sun 6a-7p would also be helpful in determining how many people are actually tuning in and how many are staying tuned in.

Can you provide that info? Anybody else got Columbus breakouts?

For fun, we could look at the same numbers for WTDA to get a sense of what they're doing.

To get true perspective on the Columbus situation, you've got to step back from the decimal points separating these two underpowered radio stations and dissecting tiny demos & dayparts.

The big picture is that Columbus is a Democratic market, evidenced (again) by the huge 20-point win by the Dems in this week's election. Columbus isn't just a little bit Blue, it's (pardon the Michigan reference) Big Blue.

So what does Clear Channel program on the market's one mega-signal radio station--WTVN--the station that has been #1 or #2 in Columbus since Arbitron began surveying the town 60 years ago? Conservative Talk. And where do they put Progressive Talk? On the tiny and long-dead 1230 stick (BTW, back when that was Top 40 WCOL-AM, it was a killer). And when it doesn't rack up huge numbers, what does CC do? Flip it to more Conservative Talk. In a city that just voted overwhelmingly (again) Democratic.

Cynics will say "Yeah, but WTVN is #1." Hey, they've been #1 as long as any of us have been alive. If they put something on that huge signal that the majority of Columbus residents actually wanted to hear, WTVN would be even bigger. What they've done with 1230 is just adding insult to injury.

Knowing CC's political position, it is hard not to believe that what they've done in Columbus is intentional: helping the GOP keep the base incited in the largest city of the state that decided the 2004 election and will likely remain a "swing state" for years to come. But now, even the rest of Ohio is Blue.

I believe that what Holland Cooke has suggested is that Talk Radio programmers & managers need to step back at this point and reassess their content, at this point, given the landslide against the views they've been espousing for so long. In other words, it is time to be smart.

Columbus would be a great place to start.

Thanks, amfmxm.

For the benefit of those not familiar with what we're doing here in Columbus:

After more than a year being off the air, WVKO-AM went back on the air in the summer of 2007 with Spanish-language programming. Bernard Media, which took over operations following bankruptcy court proceedings, leased the AM operation to Cowtown Communications, headed by Gary Richards. The AM flipped to progressive talk on December 3, 2007. A sister FM station has a Spanish format.

Assisting Gary in getting the operation up and running were a dedicated group of disgruntled former 1230 listeners known as Ohio Majority Radio. Its leader, Russ Childers, has handled much of the engineering behind the station. My association with WVKO was initially as an advertiser (as was the case with 1230), but I have been doing the afternoon news since June. I go the studios from my job with the Bureau of Motor Vehicles. (My on-air time has been interrupted the past few months due to overtime, but I've been back two weeks now.)

Russ also has a real job like I do.

Other than News Director Michael Alwood, the other local on-air voices are all volunteers and interns.

In the very first book since the flip (winter 2007), the station scored a 0.5, tied with 1230. The numbers have moved up incrementally in the last two books to 0.6 and 0.8, respectively. But unlike 1230 in its progressive talk days, WVKO streams online.

And while the 12+ numbers may be irrelevant, one thing Elephant neglected to mention is TSL--Time Spent Listening--which factors in the number of listeners for at least five minutes in an Average Quarter Hour (AQH) and the number of unique listeners for at least five minutes in a given daypart (cume). 1230 had the highest TSL in the market when it was progressive talk (or so my sales rep there told me), and apparently the high TSL has moved with the format over our direction.

The local programming, especially on the weekends, has separated WVKO from 1230 in all its different formats since Jacor/Clear Channel took ownership. The station has not forgetten its roots and provides a variety of programs serving the Columbus African-American community on Sundays. It also offers a local talk show for the LGBT community and a nightly show sponsored by the Columbus Free Press.

And since it began airing progressive talk, the number of local advertisers on WVKO has far exceeded the number on 1230 during progressive talk programming. However, the station has also been Columbus' home for high school sports from day one, as well as the home for Columbus Clippers baseball. We also carry Miami University and Ohio University football, and listeners have no problem in going to the web stream for their favorite shows when sports is on the air. They know sports can be a major cash cow that supports the rest of the programming.

Has it been smooth sailing? Not exactly. But when the station was in a financial pinch this past summer, listeners from all across the country provided the needed financial backing to get the station through the lean period.

Now that I have gotten everyone outside Columbus up to speed as WVKO is approaching its first anniversary as a progressive talker, a closed-circuit message to Elephant.

In my very first posts on this board, I was informed of the following in the Terms of Service:

You agree not to use the Service to:

(e) upload, post or otherwise transmit any Content that you do not have a right to transmit under any law or under contractual or fiduciary relationships (such as inside information, proprietary and confidential information learned or disclosed as part of employment relationships or under nondisclosure agreements);
(f) upload, post or otherwise transmit any Content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other proprietary rights of any party;

That's why I don't get into rating specifics other than what is posted in the Ratings section.

 

[cm454]

amfmxm...If that's the case, how do you explain Portland? The Progressive station is 25kw KPOJ at 620 AM. The Rush Limbaugh station is KEX at 1190 with 50kw. By your thinking, KPOJ should be huge in a liberal market like Portland. It gets a 3.1 share (#11), while KEX gets a 4.6 (#3). Add the other conservative station, KXL with a 2.7 share (#16), and KPOJ has less than half the share of the other two. There is absolutely no signal issue with KPOJ. It appears to have a better daytime signal than the other two, and the night signal is comparable.

Please explain.

I am AMAZED nobody has pointed this out yet:

One of the biggest reasons conservative talk LOOKS so dominant and is thought to be the only way to go in talk, is because of the powerful and HERITAGE signals that have been used to promote it.

Learn some radio history.

KEX and KXL have been around doing what they do for quite some time.

KPOJ DOES NOT have that heritage/legacy. Yes, KGW did at 620, but was NEVER, as a talk station, remotely as successful as the other two. ALSO, the heritage calls are gone.

Once again, perception has become reality and those who fancy conservatism on the radio will give you 100 reasons talkradio should be about one ideology vs. any ideology at all.

 

[smedge2006]

Great article on talk radio and the election:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/e...8/11/08/the_rising_irrelevance_of_talk_radio/

And the best part is, the authors understand implicitly that talk radio was not invented in 1988 by Rush Limbaugh or the demise of the Fairness Doctrine. They also take note of how the talk radio "caller" has been pushed aside.

 

[cm454]

cm454...yes, we all know that heritage plays a big part. But, if progressive talk was as appealing as you say, it would be sweeping the nation like the Jack format.

I wasn't referring to "progressive talk" as much as ANY general talk that is not all-conservative all-the-time.

And saying that a talk format or station should be able to catch fire like a music format demonstrates a lack of understanding of the animal:
Talk audiences move VERY slowly in discovering and embracing new stations. Music audiences are famous for how fickle they can be and how easily converted they are from Alice to Jack or whatever.

Apples and Oranges.

 

[Holland Cooke]

MUST-See TV

I throw out this question: Where do you expect this industry to be four years from now?

If you haven't seen this already, grab the arm rest, and watch Talkers magazine publisher Michael Harrison preach-it-out at the recent NAB Radio Show in Austin: http://podjockey.com/2008/09/28/the-rise-of-the-media-station-and-the-future-of-talk-radio/#more-623

As Mr. Dylan sang, "Ya better start swimmin' or you'll sink like a stone, 'cause the times they are a changin."

HC
www.HollandCooke.com

 

[gr8oldies]

Are you seriously trying to tell me that WTVN's John Corby is an ideologue? Most of the time he's talking about lighter subjects in the news and Ohio State. I can't believe you seriously believe that WTVN is thinking political strategy when they put their programming and marketing plan together.

So if WTVN dropped Rush and put on a liberal..any liberal would do..WTVN's ratings would rise? Doubt it. There's no evidence.

It is interesting that Clear Channel gets absolutely no credit for putting liberal talk on many of it's stations in the first place, only for dropping it. In Cinncinati it was on a 50000 watt blowtorch, had billboards, newspaper and TV stories and a local star who made good, Jerry Springer. Jerry Springer is one liberal who should have been able to get an audience in Cincinnati, where he was once mayor and a popular news anchor. However, I don't know that the libtalk format even beat the previous RealOldies format.(No, I don't believe Darryl Parks torched the WCKY transmitter).

If Rush Limbaugh is only on the air because CC wants to promote a political viewpoint, how do you explain the fact of his success before consolodation, and on stations not owned by CC. The remaining Cox sister donated thousands to Obama's campaign, yet many Cox stations
air conservative shows because they get ratings and generate revenue. When a liberal host can outdo a conservative host on a consistent basis, that tide may change.

There is, however, always going to be a place for an opposition media. Obama did not win 80% to 20% in the popular vote, and his win does not mean conservatives became staunch leftists overnight. I would argue conservativism didn't lose this election bcause conservatism didn't run in the first place. If the mainstream press is going to continue to fawn over Obama for four years and ask no tough questions, yeah, there are still substantial numbers who are going to want to go someplace else.

As for the decimal point war in Columbus..WYTS could well be making more money doing what they're doing. We're not privy to their books.

 

[jimwalsh2001]

Re: MUST-See TV

Holland: My concern with New Media Talk is that it will be run by the same drones who currently call the shots in Talk Radio. That will just mean more of the same old crapola, i.e. Rush and his ten thousand clones...

I throw out this question: Where do you expect this industry to be four years from now?

If you haven't seen this already, grab the arm rest, and watch Talkers magazine publisher Michael Harrison preach-it-out at the recent NAB Radio Show in Austin: http://podjockey.com/2008/09/28/the-rise-of-the-media-station-and-the-future-of-talk-radio/#more-623

As Mr. Dylan sang, "Ya better start swimmin' or you'll sink like a stone, 'cause the times they are a changin."

HC
www.HollandCooke.com

 

[amfmxm]

What you obviously DO NOT GET, is that gearing the format ONLY TOWARD those who have some political axe to grind, is both short-sighted and ignorant.

There are a great many people who enjoy entertaining conversation, irrespective of ideology.

The fact that talkradio programmers have copied each other into a "Field of Dreams" if you build it they will come reality, DOES NOT mean MOST people will not listen to talk unless it is conservative---or liberal for that matter.

I'm so tired of the myopic and revisionist historian version of how this format got to where it is, especially since the illogic and lack of perspective is only limiting it's future. Those who claim ideology should be the rule of thumb in talkradio are clueless. Absolutely and undeniably clueless.

Keep quoting current numbers and revenues. It is meaningless as to what will be vs. what could be, as this medium faces more and more challenges from all the other audio sources available.

Talkradio today, like the Titanic 2 hours before it hit the bottom of the Atlantic, seemed fine: above water, orchestra playing and passengers milling about. The Captain knew how different things would be in 2 hours.

That is how I see AM talkradio: It's got a gaping hole in the side called age attrition, and as other audio sources prevail, the tired drumbeat whose reputation preceeds it, will eventually sink into oblivian.

And those who are steering it into the iceberg are too dumb or too comfortable and lazy to care.

Without arguing some excellent points (age attrition, new media) I'm not quite sure where this fits into this particular thread "What this election means to talkradio."

I hope the election helps talkradio execs begin to recognize that the preponderance of the content being offered is out of step with the majority of available listeners, and in some markets--most metropolitan areas outside the deep south--is focused on a very small minority. Common sense says that there is opportunity in addressing the majority.

Voters in the 18-29 demo went Democrat by a 2-to-1 margin. Only 65+ voted Republican.

This ain't rocket surgery. In a nutshell, I think that this is "what this election means to talkradio."

 

[Elephant]

amfmxm...You don't program to the majority. You find your niche and supeprserve it. I would guess the MAJORITY of people don't like Country music. Does that mean Country stations should change formats? (Yes, cm454...I understand the difference. It's just an analogy.)

If 46% of the voters went for McCain, I'm sure that would break down into some attractive 25-54 sub sets. Most voters are NOT talk radio fans anyway.

 

[Elephant]

Don...there doesn't have to be a vote. Arbitron ratings show what the listeners want. If they don't, the ratings go down and hopefully programmers respond.

 

[Don62]

But it isn't always about ratings. it's about saving money.
as the quote showed, management at the once-heritage talker KCMO thought Hannity would be the best thing.

They found out their ratings declined after they erringly brought him on.

Listeners or ratings had nothing to do with the decision.

I listened to the previous local host, Dan Taylor. He was great, and was certainly more interesting than the other local talk being offered in the city at that time of the day, by KMBZ, which was sports talk. Soon, that sports show went away (as there was a full-time sports talk station) and new local p.m. drive hosts came in. That local p.m. show is No. 1 now. It follows syndication in a.m., Rush, O"Reilly, and is followed by a local host.

KCMO? That station gets very few shares and pales in p.m. drive with the comparatively weak Hannity.
After all, this isn't a tiny market like North Platte, Neb., or Wichita Falls, Texas, which need someone like Hannity. This is a good-sized market that commands strong ad sales.

Unfortunately, radio management doesn't want to work to make local radio great anymore.

This is Kansas City, which helped pioneer talk radio, a medium-sized market that incidentally has more or used to have more local talk than many larger markets.

 

[jaymarvin]

How about this: Limbaugh, Hannity and the rest threw all they had at Obama, and he still won big. Yes, Limbaugh has 20 million people who listen everyday. But if you break the markets down he as two, threes, and in some cases five, six, and seven. But in any given market that's only seven percent of the total market 25-54 total adults. That would suggest to me talk radio needs to knock off the political line--and same old BS--and get back to localism and entertainment.

 

[amfmxm]

amfmxm...You don't program to the majority. You find your niche and supeprserve it. I would guess the MAJORITY of people don't like Country music. Does that mean Country stations should change formats? (Yes, cm454...I understand the difference. It's just an analogy.)

If 46% of the voters went for McCain, I'm sure that would break down into some attractive 25-54 sub sets. Most voters are NOT talk radio fans anyway.

One of the problems with this general discussion is that the rightwingers among us have staked out an immovable stance contending that only conservative talk is viable because conservative talk has worked in the past--a stance not unlike the GOP campaign just waged. In fairness, that's a dictionary definition of conservatism--"tending to oppose change." And by definition, progressives aren't glued to the status quo and are open to new ways of doing things. So it's not surprising to see the liberals among us suggesting that Progressive Talk is an idea worth considering.

We shouldn't expect successful rightwing talk stations to change what they're doing--anymore than we should expect successful AC stations to switch to Country... or successful Urban stations to switch to Rock.

But for those many properties with perfectly good signals struggling with small audiences and small revenues, the election does provide another piece of very good evidence that Progressive Talk could be a viable choice, especially in cities & counties and metro areas whose residents are overwhelmingly Democrats.

And, yes, Portland's 620/KPOJ(AM) is a great example. Thanks, Clear Channel!

 

[Elephant]

If you're calling me a right winger, you're wrong. I'm looking at this from what is successful, has been successful, and has been tried with less success. I wish a local Cincinnati station with a decent signal would try progressive talk in a better way than WCKY did. Remember, WCKY is a 50kw day/night station that even had local hero Jerry Springer in middays. Hamilton County is Democratic these days, but I still doubt WCKY would do any better now than it did then.

This is NOT about ideology or being "opposed to change."

I'm finished with this thread. Here's my bottom line:

WHAT THIS ELECTION MEANS TO TALK RADIO: It's a HUGE opportunity for conservative talk to re-engage the base and become "outraged" by whatever President Obama does. (I put it in quotes because we all know even the smallest issue will be twisted into something it's not.) Republicans and conservatives are not going to go away. They're going to use talk radio to re-energize. It's also a HUGE opportunity for progressive talk to preach to its choir of Democrats and liberals who put the new President in office. But how many of those new voters are AM talk radio listeners? Talk radio will be fine.

 

[livingfruitvirus]

I just don't like amongst all the pessimism with right wing hosts, they'll say "I hate to be proven right, but..."

Comon! These guys LOVE to be proven right. They can't wait to say "I told you so!" I'm sure many of them want to call the listeners who voted for Obama idiots after all the bashing they've done and failing to convince people. They won't do that though. It might hurt their ratings.

 

[talkjim]

Jay Marvin,

Good to see you posting here--I've enjoyed your shows out of both Chicago and Denver. I happened to be listening one day about a year ago when I was in Boulder, and you were into an interesting rant about the state of talkradio in this nation--such as it is.

We've never met, but I've known some people who've worked with you and said they enjoyed doing so. I know you possess some integrity--you didn't take the big right turn along with most of the radio industry in the 90's.

Wow--what a concept--mentioning radio and integrity in the same sentence.

 

[willcail]

Stephanie Miller is a comedy show first and foremost. If I want to hear in depth political left leaning talk I go to Ron Reagan and Maddow. Plus Ed Schultz and Stephanie Miller are in the Talkers Magazine top twenty talkers. Stephanie Miller pulls in the ratings so does Ed Schultz. 2/3 of Schultz affiliates are on non progressive talk stations.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

Remember, WCKY is a 50kw day/night station that even had local hero Jerry Springer in middays.

"Local hero" or no (and I suspect much of Cincinnati still has a tortured relationship with the former mayor who used a check to pay for a hooker)...

Springer was an AWFUL, AWFUL radio host.

He should have been put nowhere near a radio microphone, in Cincinnati or anywhere else.