What to put in front of an 8500?

[deejens]

Hey guys,

I am playing with an Orban 8500 but i'm not totally satisfied with it. The machine itself is awesome but (I know this sounds strange) it is TOO clean. In our 8200 we have a very nice low-bass PUNCH. A punch which knocks you down.

Now i'm trying to get this punch (which is a little bit available in the Ultra Low Latency preset) with something in front of the 8500.

Anyone with experience in 'designing' your own sound with Big Bottoms, tube-compressors, eq's, Vitalizers etc... Just to give this awesome machine a bit of our own?

DeeJ<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by deejens on 02/15/06 12:37 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[oldiesstation]

> Hey guys,
>
> I am playing with an Orban 8500 but i'm not totally
> satisfied with it. The machine itself is awesome but (I know
> this sounds strange) it is TOO clean. In our 8200 we have a
> very nice low-bass PUNCH. A punch which knocks you down.
>
> Now i'm trying to get this punch (which is a little bit
> available in the Ultra Low Latency preset) with something in
> front of the 8500.
>
> Anyone with experience in 'designing' your own sound with
> Big Bottoms, tube-compressors, eq's, Vitalizers etc... Just
> to give this awesome machine a bit of our own?
>
> DeeJ
> THE ARIANE DIGITAL SEQUEL will get the job done.you might try calling Orban and depending on their mood today get some help.better processors for the job would be the DSP_Xtra with built in Ariane or the Omnia 6 ex.IMHO

 

[1290wgli]

> > Hey guys,
> >
> > I am playing with an Orban 8500 but i'm not totally
> > satisfied with it. The machine itself is awesome but (I
> know
> > this sounds strange) it is TOO clean. In our 8200 we have
> a
> > very nice low-bass PUNCH. A punch which knocks you down.
> >
> > Now i'm trying to get this punch (which is a little bit
> > available in the Ultra Low Latency preset) with something
> in
> > front of the 8500.
> >
> > Anyone with experience in 'designing' your own sound with
> > Big Bottoms, tube-compressors, eq's, Vitalizers etc...
> Just
> > to give this awesome machine a bit of our own?
> >
> > DeeJ

While I do feel you can probably get the bass you want out of the 8500 (it is lightyears better than the 8200... but, then again, so was the 8100), I will tell you the Sequel will give you some added punch and clean up your AGC. Orban is one of the worst offenders when it comes to audible front ends, I don't think they've ever properly designed an AGC circuit.

 

[jammerdave]

Mega dittos on the Ariane Sequel. Amazing box. Worth every nickel..

df



> > > Hey guys,
> > >
> > > I am playing with an Orban 8500 but i'm not totally
> > > satisfied with it. The machine itself is awesome but (I
> > know
> > > this sounds strange) it is TOO clean. In our 8200 we
> have
> > a
> > > very nice low-bass PUNCH. A punch which knocks you down.
>
> > >
> > > Now i'm trying to get this punch (which is a little bit
> > > available in the Ultra Low Latency preset) with
> something
> > in
> > > front of the 8500.
> > >
> > > Anyone with experience in 'designing' your own sound
> with
> > > Big Bottoms, tube-compressors, eq's, Vitalizers etc...
> > Just
> > > to give this awesome machine a bit of our own?
> > >
> > > DeeJ
>
> While I do feel you can probably get the bass you want out
> of the 8500 (it is lightyears better than the 8200... but,
> then again, so was the 8100), I will tell you the Sequel
> will give you some added punch and clean up your AGC. Orban
> is one of the worst offenders when it comes to audible front
> ends, I don't think they've ever properly designed an AGC
> circuit.
>

 

[mr_elbows]

> Hey guys,
>
> I am playing with an Orban 8500 but i'm not totally
> satisfied with it. The machine itself is awesome but (I know
> this sounds strange) it is TOO clean. In our 8200 we have a
> very nice low-bass PUNCH. A punch which knocks you down.
>
> Now i'm trying to get this punch (which is a little bit
> available in the Ultra Low Latency preset) with something in
> front of the 8500.
>
> Anyone with experience in 'designing' your own sound with
> Big Bottoms, tube-compressors, eq's, Vitalizers etc... Just
> to give this awesome machine a bit of our own?
>
> DeeJ
>


Audimax 440 ? <VBG>

 

[cranium]

IMHO:

If you aren't getting the sound you want from the $12,000 box you just bought, call the company and describe in very clear terms what you want to hear.

That said, I love the Arianne. Big fan here, as well.

If you're planning on setting up an Arianne in front of your 5 band digital hooptie, put it at the studio and plan on tons of tweak time.

Look sane to your GM, don't suggest putting a $3,000 box in front of the $12,000 problem.

Test drive and select a box that pleases your ears before dropping the cash.

 

[1290wgli]

> IMHO:
>
> If you aren't getting the sound you want from the $12,000
> box you just bought, call the company and describe in very
> clear terms what you want to hear.

The problem is, the Bob Orban's of the world think they know best and thus, suggestions to improve AGC design from actual real-world users are usually met with comments that "we've been doing this for 30+ years, we know what customers want and like" etc. Then why do I see Compellors and Ariane's in front of $12,000 processors? Something's not right.

Telling board-ops and DJ's to "watch their level" and developing "new methods" of console operation (as suggested in Orban manuals) is nice and ideal but unrealistic. Orban's outbaord AGC's (Co-Operator / Studio Chassis 8200ST) have not been popular devices compared to the Compellor, Prisms and now the Ariane. The 8200ST, in particular, does a nice job of not letting bass pump the wideband device with an external bass "loop" that tends to ignore bass, but it is horrible with voice, piano and horns. You can hear the AGC overcorrect and since the attack times are fixed values, it's hard to get this thing to sound acceptable unless you have fast release times to quickly recover the midrange pump (and that makes for other unwanted audio effects).

In a twist, the best Orban AGC was the 424A compressor, which had an infinite about of tweakability with attack/release/ratio/gate/idle gain that could make it fairly undetectable in an airchain.

Orban's latest processors still have similar AGC problems, with the 8400 and the 1100PC card I have at home both having audible AGC's.

The Ariane, OTOH, cures alot of sins, sins found in all one-box processors.

 

[RadioDoc]

>
> The Ariane, OTOH, cures alot of sins, sins found in all
> one-box processors.
>

Another vote for the Ariane's from me. I have them in front of my 8500's, and the combo is unbeatable! <P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[gtomas]

> Hey guys,
>
> I am playing with an Orban 8500 but i'm not totally
> satisfied with it. The machine itself is awesome but (I know
> this sounds strange) it is TOO clean. In our 8200 we have a
> very nice low-bass PUNCH. A punch which knocks you down.

I'm pretty sure you can get that bass with 8500. In the manual, there's section "How to get the bass you want" that I suggest you read if you already haven't done so. You can also send an e-mail to Marty Acuff from technical support or even Bob himself and I'm sure they will be able to help you!

Now what I can offer you as advice is to try these things: set bass clip mode to Hard or LLHard, reduce Hard Clip Shape, reduce AGC Bass Attack time, turn on DJ Bass, increase Bass Clip Threshold and finally - play with EQ section. There's shelving EQ and parametric EQ (I suggest setting it at 61Hz) that you can use.

I even got some numbers somewhere when I adjusted 8400 to get exactly the same bass as on 8100/XT2.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[jammerdave]

I'm using an Ariane in front of a linear T1 STL, with the '8400 at the tx site. Big diff over the compellor. Ya gotta have something riding gain ahead of the stl, so wht not something great? The compellor, with all due respect is a great box, but Ariane redefines great, as far as levelling goes. I'm just using it's stereo default preset, and we are more than pleased with it. I have the '8400 AGC defeated at the tx end of things...

fmnostatic..



> >
> > The Ariane, OTOH, cures alot of sins, sins found in all
> > one-box processors.
> >
>
> Another vote for the Ariane's from me. I have them in front
> of my 8500's, and the combo is unbeatable!
>

 

[rorban]

> IMHO:>The problem is, the Bob Orban's of the world think they know best and thus, suggestions to improve AGC design from actual real-world users are usually met with comments that "we've been doing this for 30+ years, we know what customers want and like" etc. Then why do I see Compellors and Ariane's in front of $12,000 processors? Something's not right.

In fact, there were major changes to the AGCs of the Orban products, starting with the 8400. We added attack time controls, window gating, the ability to do matrix processing, and more. We *do* listen to our customers.Most of our 8500 users are completely satisfied with the AGC built into the 8500.Bob Orban

 

[menotti1]

Mr. Orban, tell our readers why you think Omnia out sells you 3 to 1.most engs i know prefer the omnia 6 over your 8500.my take on the 8500 front is it looks cheap and something like toy'r us.maybe you could list sales figures for your products and Mr Foti could do the same...

 

[taylorengineer]

Mr. Mennotti:Bob Orban has forgotten more than you will ever know about radio processing......your arrogance is VERY unbecoming.We are lucky to have Bob, Frank, and Scott to come on these boards to discuss processing issues. I want to thank these guys for spending their valuable time discussing and educating us on the various issues regarding audio processing....I, for one, have learned much!

 

[surfdude]

Getting back to the original question!I run an Aphex Compellor into an Aphex Aural Exciter/Big Bottom (using only the bass Big Bottom feature) into an 8100XT.Sounds excellent for our OLDIES format. I'm the PD.FYI: I would NEVER let an engineer have the FINAL say on processorsettings.Thanks Mr. Orban for your great analog boxes!

 

[wgliradio]

FYI: I would NEVER let an engineer have the FINAL say on processorsettings.

 

[wgliradio]

In fact, there were major changes to the AGCs of the Orban products, starting with the 8400. We added attack time controls, window gating, the ability to do matrix processing, and more. We *do* listen to our customers.Most of our 8500 users are completely satisfied with the AGC built into the 8500.Bob Orban

I personally still prefer an outboard AGC, although I do like the way 8500's AGC can do matrix to enhance stereo.

 

[rorban]

Mr. Orban, tell our readers why you think Omnia out sells you 3 to 1.most engs i know prefer the omnia 6 over your 8500.my take on the 8500 front is it looks cheap and something like toy'r us.maybe you could list sales figures for your products and Mr Foti could do the same...

CRL is a public company, so anyone can download our SEC filings and find out that our annualized sales have not decreased, although there was a "hiccup" in the first three months of 2006 because we were moving our manufacturing from California to Arizona and were not able to ship all of our backorders. In 2005, our net sales were $15,189,848, which is an increase of about 15% over 2004.I know that Mr. Foti has made the "3:1" claim several times on this board. However, repeating a claim over and over does not make it true. If the "3:1" claim is true and Orban/CRL's sales have not decreased, this means that the total market value for processing is now at least 400% of what it was before our competitor arrived on the scene. This fails the "common sense" test.Bob OrbanBob Orban

 

[PghBroadcastGuy]

FYI: I would NEVER let an engineer have the FINAL say on processorsettings.

Than why would you have them around? They are responsible for the technical end to make sure you operate and sound appropriatly. They should be able to accomplish the sound you are looking for with your input.

 

[FFoti1]

CRL is a public company, so anyone can download our SEC filings and find out that our annualized sales have not decreased, although there was a "hiccup" in the first three months of 2006 because we were moving our manufacturing from California to Arizona and were not able to ship all of our backorders. In 2005, our net sales were $15,189,848, which is an increase of about 15% over 2004.I know that Mr. Foti has made the "3:1" claim several times on this board. However, repeating a claim over and over does not make it true. If the "3:1" claim is true and Orban/CRL's sales have not decreased, this means that the total market value for processing is now at least 400% of what it was before our competitor arrived on the scene. This fails the "common sense" test.Bob Orban

Bob,Based upon your numbers, the ratio is on target.-Frank Foti

 

[BofH]

Bob with due respect, the market for processing now is MUCH larger - more and more smaller stations and even internet operations are purchasing audio processing products - as they are now more affordable than ever before with the healthly competition in the marketplace.IMHO the Omnia 3T has gone on the air on a large number of community (similar idea to NPR but I'm counting low power 100w as well as 12kw FMs) stations in Australia and abroad simply because the price point is right (eg the once industry standard for low budget stations here was a Compellor / Aphex 2020 combo - now it's actually more expensive than a comparable Omnia / Orban product!)I think you'll find in the larger markets that this "affordability" means that many stations will buy both Omnia and Orban units and use the one on-air they like the sound of the most. Obviously this can vary from month-to-month depending on the PD and Engineering staff