What will they do with the annalog channels?

[PaulO]

I was wondering what would happen to channels 2, 4, 5 and 8 when the annalog signal goes away tonight. I'm wondering if they actually can do anything with the channels since the HD channels couldn't be overlayed on them like HD radio.

Well I have my CCradio plus with TV band to hear what happens at the moment of sign off. Hoping for something historical; But probably not.

 

[romer979fm]

FWIW...WTVF will move their digital signal from 56 back to 5 when the analog on 5 goes away...
WNPT will move their digital signal back to 8 when the analog on 8 goes away.
You won't hear anything on you TV-band radio after the switch.

 

[PaulO]

FWIW...WTVF will move their digital signal from 56 back to 5 when the analog on 5 goes away...
WNPT will move their digital signal back to 8 when the analog on 8 goes away.
You won't hear anything on you TV-band radio after the switch.

Well channel 5 went completely off at about midnight. Channel 2 is still on. Channel 4 started having dead air about 12:30. Their transmiter is still on just dead air. Channel 5 actually did a sign off which was broadcast over the digital and analog signals.

 

[K4WRF]

Not good for WTVF out here in southern Williamson County even after several re-scans, 16db gain antenna pointed right at them, same condition at sons house in Chappel Hill.

Ch-4 nightlight OK, Ch-2 still programming. All others more than ample signal.

Might drag out heavy duty test equipment later but must wash my hair first....

w/

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

Not good for WTVF out here in southern Williamson County even after several re-scans, 16db gain antenna pointed right at them, same condition at sons house in Chappel Hill.

By way of comparison, how was the NTSC signal of WTVF at your location? Any bets on how long it'll be before the ATSC facilities on low-V (WTVF and WMC-TV come to mind) petition for a revised table of allotments to get a UHF channel?

 

[DeadElvis]

I predict...

WMC-TV will eventually end up on channel 10. Signs seems to point to the current CP for 10 not being constructed. That would be a natural place for them to go.

There are a couple of UHF channels that are likely now open. One wonders, though, how WTVF and WMC allowed this to happen.

Still, once I made a simple loop out of 10', or so, of #12, WMC-TV has been rock-solid.

-DE

 

[PaulO]

I predict...

WMC-TV will eventually end up on channel 10. Signs seems to point to the current CP for 10 not being constructed. That would be a natural place for them to go.

There are a couple of UHF channels that are likely now open. One wonders, though, how WTVF and WMC allowed this to happen.

Still, once I made a simple loop out of 10', or so, of #12, WMC-TV has been rock-solid.

-DE

I'm still wondering 1 why channel 4 is still transmiting in analogand 2 why channel 2 is still broadcasting. When I turn my analog on channel 5 and 8 I hear the hiss of a blank channel but when I turn on 4 Ihear what sounds like a station on the air but not broadcasting anything but dead air.

If channell 5 is having reception problems with their digital does that mean that channel 2 would have more problems since their analog signal reception for that channel isn't as good anyway?

 

[K4WRF]

Bob,
The WTVF NTSC was fair to good, but was very subject to "skip" conditions as you would expect.

Paul,
IIRC, WKRN digital is on Ch-28 not returning to the old NTSC channel.

 

[romer979fm]

Hey Watson: just curious...how was WTVF's digotal down there on 56?
It was nearly non-existant here by Elm Hill Marina...and WSMV's DT on 10 is also poor.
WKRN's digital on 27 is solid...but noting showing from WNPT DT on 8. weird since same tower...

 

[K4WRF]

Chris,

The Ch-56 DTV signal was only slightly less than the DTV’s coming from the candelabra across I-24 but more than ample to hold lock.

I have connected the antenna to my spectrum analyzer.

Right now the Ch-5 signal is low, like only about 4db out of the noise floor but there are also other signals coming and going in that part of the band indicating there is still some slight band opening going on, part of the problem.

Ch-27(2) is about 18 to 20 db out of the grass.

Ch-8 is about 10db and Ch-10(virtual 4) is about 8db above the grass and they are solid in the receiver.

This is getting out of control, somebody stop me!

w/

 

[RadioBable]

Chris,

The Ch-56 DTV signal was only slightly less than the DTV’s coming from the candelabra across I-24 but more than ample to hold lock.

I have connected the antenna to my spectrum analyzer.

Right now the Ch-5 signal is low, like only about 4db out of the noise floor but there are also other signals coming and going in that part of the band indicating there is still some slight band opening going on, part of the problem.

Ch-27(2) is about 18 to 20 db out of the grass.

Ch-8 is about 10db and Ch-10(virtual 4) is about 8db above the grass and they are solid in the receiver.

This is getting out of control, somebody stop me!

w/

Watt:
Curious. After living in Cookeville and being on the fringe of analog reception even with a decent outdoor antenna...I discovered without cable or satellite there is practically no television that will get into that city (or surrounding) even after the transition is complete. Just wondering if you knew if there were there ever any plans for something like LP television repeaters to be put in these bedroom communities that have no over the air service any longer?

 

[w9wi]

FWIW, I was watching last night when DTV-5 came up. It was only in about half the time on my Insignia box, the most sensitive receiver I have.

This morning, for the heck of it I rescanned on the tuner in the TV. (kinda old & not very sensitive) WTVF was working 100%.

I think the lightning last night was killing them. (and will do so again next storm...)

Today, we had a massive skip opening. Colorado Public Television was blasting in on 87.7 on the car radio on the way to work. Guess that won't happen again..... Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if skip was killing WTVF down in Williamson Co..

 

[PaulO]

FWIW, I was watching last night when DTV-5 came up. It was only in about half the time on my Insignia box, the most sensitive receiver I have.

This morning, for the heck of it I rescanned on the tuner in the TV. (kinda old & not very sensitive) WTVF was working 100%.

I think the lightning last night was killing them. (and will do so again next storm...)

Today, we had a massive skip opening. Colorado Public Television was blasting in on 87.7 on the car radio on the way to work. Guess that won't happen again..... Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if skip was killing WTVF down in Williamson Co..

An analog update. Chanel 2 is now off the air. Chanel is running a program in English and Spanish in a continus loop explaining what people need to do to convert to digital. This program is produced by the NAB.

One of these days I may by an antenna to see how well the over the air signal works in Hendersonville. My new computer has a digital tuner.

 

[TheDingo]

I just tried my best to pull in a Nashville DT down here on the AL line, (Pinnacle PCTV HD Pro stick on my Macbook Pro sitting at the base of my antenna mast). EyeTV shows a signal is present on 5, 8 and 10, but the quality never gets high enough for any of them to decode. I'll have to try again at night. (I did pick 10 up here once during a light DX opening a few months ago so I know it's not impossible). I'll also have to eventually get a second antenna up there for TV, rather than trying to make do with the one I have that's made for FM, lol.

 

[K4WRF]

Well, the saga continues. Applied an RF amplifier to the line and was able to raise the level a little better than 10db. That is as much as I could get away with without raising the noise floor. Ch 5 is about 16db out of the grass, Ch-8 is a good 30db and Ch-10 almost as good, about 26db. The winner is Ch-27 (2) with 40db (UHF antenna is better that the V's). Yes, I also went to a better quality balun with no measurable effect.

In summmary, Ch-5 will not decode, also notice a lot of impulse noise down there in peak-hold mode.

Far as I am concerned, I have spent $200 on a $1 problem. Rarely watch local television, foolish me but I had fun and re aquainted myself with the operation of the spectrum analyzer.
My money is on the low banders and some high banders moving up within a year.
Doug, what do you think?

w/

 

[w9wi]

Well, the saga continues. Applied an RF amplifier to the line and was able to raise the level a little better than 10db. That is as much as I could get away with without raising the noise floor. Ch 5 is about 16db out of the grass, Ch-8 is a good 30db and Ch-10 almost as good, about 26db. The winner is Ch-27 (2) with 40db (UHF antenna is better that the V's). Yes, I also went to a better quality balun with no measurable effect.

In summmary, Ch-5 will not decode, also notice a lot of impulse noise down there in peak-hold mode.

Far as I am concerned, I have spent $200 on a $1 problem. Rarely watch local television, foolish me but I had fun and re aquainted myself with the operation of the spectrum analyzer.
My money is on the low banders and some high banders moving up within a year.
Doug, what do you think?

w/

I certainly think if you're seeing impulse noise on the spec an, that's probably what's killing your channel 5 reception. As I said, the lightning was REALLY killing it up here right after they flipped (even though the storms were 15 miles away) and when the storms clear out, WTVF works great. I should add, I'm using a 4-foot *UHF* dish -- which by rights really shouldn't work at all at 79MHz!

The relative signals you're getting from 8 and 10 are good news -- to be honest I'd think the differential in favor of channel 8 would be greater down there. Haven't done the math though. 8 and 10 are both solid up here -- good news as 8 is the channel I watch most. (their interim 46 was rock solid despite only 45 kilowatts.)

A problem is that we don't hear from the viewers whose reception is working!

I'm getting a fair number of calls from the Plateau indicating that WTVF is the only channel they *do* get. I kinda wonder if we're going to find the rural viewers in the hollows (hollers?) find channel 5 to work great and the viewers in the city (who are probably overwhelmingly using antennas that are absolute crap on low-band) will have major problems with it.

We're having some issues on the Plateau -- and I've had a small number of calls from people who had us before transition but lost us on Friday. I suspect interference from WBIR - though why their *analog* wasn't killing us up there is hard to say.

FWIW we told the FCC we'd leave the NAB nightlight DVD on the air in analog until the 26th. I hope the cheap DVD player holds out that long. (actually we have three more like it in the old control room... and I have the .avi file so I can make more DVDs...)

 

[radiorob2.0]

Well, the saga continues. Applied an RF amplifier to the line and was able to raise the level a little better than 10db. That is as much as I could get away with without raising the noise floor. Ch 5 is about 16db out of the grass, Ch-8 is a good 30db and Ch-10 almost as good, about 26db. The winner is Ch-27 (2) with 40db (UHF antenna is better that the V's). Yes, I also went to a better quality balun with no measurable effect.

In summmary, Ch-5 will not decode, also notice a lot of impulse noise down there in peak-hold mode.

Far as I am concerned, I have spent $200 on a $1 problem. Rarely watch local television, foolish me but I had fun and re aquainted myself with the operation of the spectrum analyzer.
My money is on the low banders and some high banders moving up within a year.
Doug, what do you think?

w/

FWIW we told the FCC we'd leave the NAB nightlight DVD on the air in analog until the 26th. I hope the cheap DVD player holds out that long. (actually we have three more like it in the old control room... and I have the .avi file so I can make more DVDs...)

If you are using a Phillips/Magnavox, don't worry. In a pinch I used one to provide sound for a museum exhibit figuring if it quit working, I'm out an additional $30. It ran continuous for a year and only stopped when the power was interrupted. We retire that exhibit and a few weeks later replaced it with another exhibit requiring continuous audio. The Phillips/Magnavox went into service again and only stops when power is interrupted. The DVD player went into service November 2007. I need to write a letter to Phillips/Magnavox and share that story.

 

[PaulO]

Well, the saga continues. Applied an RF amplifier to the line and was able to raise the level a little better than 10db. That is as much as I could get away with without raising the noise floor. Ch 5 is about 16db out of the grass, Ch-8 is a good 30db and Ch-10 almost as good, about 26db. The winner is Ch-27 (2) with 40db (UHF antenna is better that the V's). Yes, I also went to a better quality balun with no measurable effect.

In summmary, Ch-5 will not decode, also notice a lot of impulse noise down there in peak-hold mode.

Far as I am concerned, I have spent $200 on a $1 problem. Rarely watch local television, foolish me but I had fun and re aquainted myself with the operation of the spectrum analyzer.
My money is on the low banders and some high banders moving up within a year.
Doug, what do you think?

w/

I certainly think if you're seeing impulse noise on the spec an, that's probably what's killing your channel 5 reception. As I said, the lightning was REALLY killing it up here right after they flipped (even though the storms were 15 miles away) and when the storms clear out, WTVF works great. I should add, I'm using a 4-foot *UHF* dish -- which by rights really shouldn't work at all at 79MHz!

The relative signals you're getting from 8 and 10 are good news -- to be honest I'd think the differential in favor of channel 8 would be greater down there. Haven't done the math though. 8 and 10 are both solid up here -- good news as 8 is the channel I watch most. (their interim 46 was rock solid despite only 45 kilowatts.)

A problem is that we don't hear from the viewers whose reception is working!

I'm getting a fair number of calls from the Plateau indicating that WTVF is the only channel they *do* get. I kinda wonder if we're going to find the rural viewers in the hollows (hollers?) find channel 5 to work great and the viewers in the city (who are probably overwhelmingly using antennas that are absolute crap on low-band) will have major problems with it.

We're having some issues on the Plateau -- and I've had a small number of calls from people who had us before transition but lost us on Friday. I suspect interference from WBIR - though why their *analog* wasn't killing us up there is hard to say.

FWIW we told the FCC we'd leave the NAB nightlight DVD on the air in analog until the 26th. I hope the cheap DVD player holds out that long. (actually we have three more like it in the old control room... and I have the .avi file so I can make more DVDs...)


Does every market have a station that is staying on for a while to run the NAB program?
Since they aren't on the regular channels now;
I guess you could say that channel 4 and 2 become something like brands?

 

[w9wi]

Does every market have a station that is staying on for a while to run the NAB program?

The FCC tried to accomplish that, don't know if they succeeded. Some markets had transitioned well before last week - and they tried to get at least two weeks' nightlight service in those markets as well.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-291375A1.pdf is a list of stations that agreed to do nightlight.

The nightlight program doesn't require that stations run the NAB program - it only requires that they air DTV transition information and emergency information. They can prepare their own program locally if they wish. That said, to my knowledge every station that's nightlighting *is* using the NAB program. It meets the requirements, and I'm pretty sure the NAB isn't charging member stations to use it...

Since they aren't on the regular channels now;
I guess you could say that channel 4 and 2 become something like brands?

Yes, I guess you could say that.

Really, that's all they've ever been. There never was such a physical concept as channel 4. When you punched in "4" on the remote for your analog TV, your TV checked an internal lookup table & knew "4" meant "67.25MHz". It tuned to that frequency and found WSMV's video signal and displayed it.

Now, when you punch in "4" on the remote for your *digital* TV, your TV checks an internal lookup table and knows "4" means "192.31MHz". It tunes to that frequency and finds our *digital* signal and displays it.

With your analog TV, the lookup table was pre-programmed at the factory. (the values appear in the FCC regulations) With your digital TV, the lookup table is programmed when you scan for channels. Once you've scanned, there really is no difference.

_________________________________________________

FWIW we told the FCC we'd leave the NAB nightlight DVD on the air in analog until the 26th. I hope the cheap DVD player holds out that long. (actually we have three more like it in the old control room... and I have the .avi file so I can make more DVDs...)

If you are using a Phillips/Magnavox, don't worry. In a pinch I used one to provide sound for a museum exhibit figuring if it quit working, I'm out an additional $30. It ran continuous for a year and only stopped when the power was interrupted. We retire that exhibit and a few weeks later replaced it with another exhibit requiring continuous audio. The Phillips/Magnavox went into service again and only stops when power is interrupted. The DVD player went into service November 2007. I need to write a letter to Phillips/Magnavox and share that story.

Unfortunately it isn't. (I do have a Philips at home -- a DVD recorder with built-in hard disk -- and am quite pleased with it) The one running the loop is an Audiovox 9" flat-panel analog TV with built-in DVD player. Somewhat to my surprise, hit the right switch and the video/audio inputs for watching external sources on the TV become video/audio *outputs* for playing DVDs into something else. (like a 100kw TV transmitter )

 

[spew]

digital tv is a bust....but not as much a waste as HD Radio