First off, just let me say I understand radio stations can't just program to any one listeners whims, but hear alot of the same complaints I make from many people I talk to. The lack of promotion of new music. Playing the same songs all the time, ie. same three Elton John songs, Same 3 Billy Joel songs, Same 3 Supertramp songs, same 3 Kansas songs, same 3, or maybe 4 rolling stones songs, you see where I'm going with this? With all the emphasis on classic rock these days, why do they neglect so many songs? I'm not saying they have to play unknown songs. But there are so many great songs that used to be hits that don't get played anymore. Anyway, I'd like to see what some of you are thinking on this topic!
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What would you like to hear from radio?
- Thread starter Mack Daddy
- Start date
This is why I have always thought the Mountain stands out as one of the top stations in town. They play deeper cuts from artists regardless if they were hit singles.
I have a big group of friends with a broad range of ages. So here's my thoughts...
1. For me, I want what we have now but I want some captivating hosts. I want to listen to the (music) station in town that people talk about and say they've got to tune in because (---) is happening. Right now the most variety I get is switching between KNHC and KPLU. I enjoy the in-depth coverage of NPR but a lot of the time flip away when it comes to things like GAZA. I was fortunate to hear this feature on KPLU last night. I thought it was Bellamy on the national A.T.C. feed because it was so "ear worm" worthy! http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kplu/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1457114
2. I want a station that interacts/cares about its listeners. Too many years have I seen a jock in studio answering a call and going "mmm hmm. mm hmm. Mmm hmm. Okay, good bye now." How about actually listening? This is another reason I like KNHC. Their volunteer DJs actually answer the lines, sound passionate about what they're doing and will take a minute or two to just say "hey, what's goin' on?" I quit listening to KVTI/"I91" because it doesn't have any personality and I never quite know what it's going to sound like. KEXP seems to reach out to its audience as well. Of course strong local talk does this for the soul as well - people like and trust *cough* Dori Monson */cough* so they believe his endorsements. This is another reason I will listen to 'the new' CBC Radio 2 when in my car. They're exposing me to new music and an eclectic selection in 2 languages while still playing some accessible tunes.
Okay. So now here's some thoughts on my friends.
1. I have a friend that is a regular caller to a radio program. He's in his late 30s and seems to show some of the same "exhaustion" with the medium but he still gets up early every morning to tune into that morning show. He is the exception to my rule. He also recently discovered local talk radio, after KIRO moved to FM. He was sad to lose the 70s music but started liking what he heard.
2. Most of my other friends are in their mid to late 20s. They don't listen to the radio. AT ALL. However, they do still read newspapers (hear that HEARST?) and are ultimately heavily socially networked online. I guess this is where they find new music. I think all or most of them have an MP3 player. Only one has a ZUNE, the rest are all products without an FM tuner and they listen to MP3s they've seen via friends or YouTube. They also have advanced cell phones and text message extensively.
3. My younger sister lives out of state and recently discovered her "tightened" community radio station (not eclectic like Portland's KBOO) and listens primarily to that.
4. My parents like *new* music. They tried local radio in their market and gave up after finding nothing engaging. Now tuned exclusively to the college-owned NPR affiliate or my dad likes country, which seems to be the only format with personality left. The college station plays "Morning Edition," "All Things Considered," but fills the rest of the day mostly with music programming - evenings are progressive, days are more "safe" with WXPN's World Cafe and a jazz program.
1. For me, I want what we have now but I want some captivating hosts. I want to listen to the (music) station in town that people talk about and say they've got to tune in because (---) is happening. Right now the most variety I get is switching between KNHC and KPLU. I enjoy the in-depth coverage of NPR but a lot of the time flip away when it comes to things like GAZA. I was fortunate to hear this feature on KPLU last night. I thought it was Bellamy on the national A.T.C. feed because it was so "ear worm" worthy! http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kplu/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1457114
2. I want a station that interacts/cares about its listeners. Too many years have I seen a jock in studio answering a call and going "mmm hmm. mm hmm. Mmm hmm. Okay, good bye now." How about actually listening? This is another reason I like KNHC. Their volunteer DJs actually answer the lines, sound passionate about what they're doing and will take a minute or two to just say "hey, what's goin' on?" I quit listening to KVTI/"I91" because it doesn't have any personality and I never quite know what it's going to sound like. KEXP seems to reach out to its audience as well. Of course strong local talk does this for the soul as well - people like and trust *cough* Dori Monson */cough* so they believe his endorsements. This is another reason I will listen to 'the new' CBC Radio 2 when in my car. They're exposing me to new music and an eclectic selection in 2 languages while still playing some accessible tunes.
Okay. So now here's some thoughts on my friends.
1. I have a friend that is a regular caller to a radio program. He's in his late 30s and seems to show some of the same "exhaustion" with the medium but he still gets up early every morning to tune into that morning show. He is the exception to my rule. He also recently discovered local talk radio, after KIRO moved to FM. He was sad to lose the 70s music but started liking what he heard.
2. Most of my other friends are in their mid to late 20s. They don't listen to the radio. AT ALL. However, they do still read newspapers (hear that HEARST?) and are ultimately heavily socially networked online. I guess this is where they find new music. I think all or most of them have an MP3 player. Only one has a ZUNE, the rest are all products without an FM tuner and they listen to MP3s they've seen via friends or YouTube. They also have advanced cell phones and text message extensively.
3. My younger sister lives out of state and recently discovered her "tightened" community radio station (not eclectic like Portland's KBOO) and listens primarily to that.
4. My parents like *new* music. They tried local radio in their market and gave up after finding nothing engaging. Now tuned exclusively to the college-owned NPR affiliate or my dad likes country, which seems to be the only format with personality left. The college station plays "Morning Edition," "All Things Considered," but fills the rest of the day mostly with music programming - evenings are progressive, days are more "safe" with WXPN's World Cafe and a jazz program.
G
Grindlfan
Guest
Well Mack, you're probably a glutton for punishment from certain snide, sarcastic regulars on this site. I totally agree with you, but until these stations stop paying moronic consultants and research companies for useless, incorrect information on their listening audience and actually use their heads to program we will get the same overly tired crap played. They'd rather pay millions of dollars to have some crackpot suit tell them what we want to hear rather than ask us directly, or their egos refuse to allow them to listen to us.Mack Daddy said:
Grindlfan said:
Probably their egos! I guess they just don't understand how to prevent all the youngsters from turning off the radio and just listening to ipods.
I actually listen to Jack quite a bit because of the range of music they play, and they don't pretend to be talk show hosts. Jack plays alot of 80's, but they also get back to the 60's and 70's, and go up into the 90's and 00's. What's with all the rock stations who do talk shows in the mornings, and some even still in the afternoons? They rarely talk about music, or anything else of interest to me. I'm not against talk radio, in fact, I frequently listen to KPTK, AM1090, and sometimes sportsradio. I used to listen to 107.7 the END alot, but in the last 3 years or so they do too much blabbing, and when they do actually play music they tend to hype certain bands alot that they think are hip or fit their definition of alternative. Most of the music I like is pretty mainstream, but why is it that classic rock stations don't play any new releases by classic bands? Yes comes to mind. Haven't heard any "new" yes on the radio since 1987 when Big Generator came out. Tom Petty and AC/DC's new stuff seems to get played, so I guess radio isn't totally resistant to new cuts by classic artists. There must be certain artists who are considered more "cool" or whatever. I don't know, I'm still contemplating getting an HD radio. I hear theres some deep cuts stations on there! Maybe it's time for everybody to turn off standard AM and FM. Kill Your Radio HEH!
First off, radio needs TALENT. Not liner card readers. Puget Sound's best longtime LOCAL talent is slowly being whittled away for upstart kids who are taught to just read the damn liners and not question what it's actually doing for the station. Pat O'Day didn't get to where he is that way.
Second, consultants: Do they even LISTEN to the stations they WRECK? Let me break it to everybody, there is NOTHING special that they do. Because even the BEST consultants have a record of some stations that FAILED because of their input. The only real meter, even more than Arbitron is word from ACTUAL listeners on the street (the kind you don't buy off with gift cards or $100 bills for a plug.) If a stations is REALLY doing something good, people ARE going to talk about it. They will wear the station's t-shirts, etc.
Third, radio today is running out of options. The same old tired formats, the same liners, the same narrow playlists of over-researched music, right down to the clock just aren't working anymore. And it shows.
Four, every year, you used to hear at least two or three major format changes in a market. Now you're lucky to hear ONE. Blood circulation is better for this industry, but since a company can own so many stations in a market, you hear less of it now. Second, jocks who were let go had several other local employment options because of several different owners.
What I would like to hear is innovation on one end (for the younger listeners) and a recycling of ideas and classic talent on the other (for the older listeners.) Radio's biggest mistake last year was to throw out all the older talent (as well as the older audiences) and now radio is paying the price for that in this economy.
Now of course there will be industry blowhards that will come up here and mock me. And delusional I may be. But in the end, I can't think of anything more delusional than letting the same lame "better mix of", "10 in a row", "Best hits of the '80s and '90s" liners and the same generic image names "Star", "Kiss", "Mix", "Hot", "Warm", "Cool" etc. Or animal image names (i.e. The "Wolf", "Cat", "Coyote", "Eagle", "Bear", "Fox" etc.) If you think that's not getting old, well then, WHO is delusional? I mean this was outdated almost 20 years ago and the industry keeps on plugging it like it's something totally new every time they launch/re-launch a station and actually (snicker!) expect to fool radio audiences every time. Brand name stations ("MOViN", "JACK"), etc. rarely make it anywhere NEAR the number one station in any market.
What most actual listeners HATE about commercial radio is the industry CHRONICALLY plays the average listener for DUMB. Does your iPod do that? KEXP? I don't think so. Yes, it's an advertising medium on one SMALL end, but should be a HELL of a LOT more. No one is going to listen to the commercials if the rest of the format genuinely sucks.
KOMO does something really good with it's Driver To Driver, Neighbor To Neighbor coverage during freaky weather. It brings radio back to a LISTENER medium, encouraging listeners to participate in their own way in that format. The same concept can work with music stations as well. It's just that certain programmers need to take a step back and really get a listeners eye view that cannot be obtained through ratings books or PPM in itself. And when EVERY non-radio/advertising employee can qualify for and easily obtain a PPM rather than a select FEW, then I'll put more faith in it. The results will be a hell of a lot more accurate too.
Right now, station clusters are cannibalizing themselves in ways they may regret later on. Each station works best as an individual team. Not what the bean counters want to hear, but it is the TRUTH.
Second, consultants: Do they even LISTEN to the stations they WRECK? Let me break it to everybody, there is NOTHING special that they do. Because even the BEST consultants have a record of some stations that FAILED because of their input. The only real meter, even more than Arbitron is word from ACTUAL listeners on the street (the kind you don't buy off with gift cards or $100 bills for a plug.) If a stations is REALLY doing something good, people ARE going to talk about it. They will wear the station's t-shirts, etc.
Third, radio today is running out of options. The same old tired formats, the same liners, the same narrow playlists of over-researched music, right down to the clock just aren't working anymore. And it shows.
Four, every year, you used to hear at least two or three major format changes in a market. Now you're lucky to hear ONE. Blood circulation is better for this industry, but since a company can own so many stations in a market, you hear less of it now. Second, jocks who were let go had several other local employment options because of several different owners.
What I would like to hear is innovation on one end (for the younger listeners) and a recycling of ideas and classic talent on the other (for the older listeners.) Radio's biggest mistake last year was to throw out all the older talent (as well as the older audiences) and now radio is paying the price for that in this economy.
Now of course there will be industry blowhards that will come up here and mock me. And delusional I may be. But in the end, I can't think of anything more delusional than letting the same lame "better mix of", "10 in a row", "Best hits of the '80s and '90s" liners and the same generic image names "Star", "Kiss", "Mix", "Hot", "Warm", "Cool" etc. Or animal image names (i.e. The "Wolf", "Cat", "Coyote", "Eagle", "Bear", "Fox" etc.) If you think that's not getting old, well then, WHO is delusional? I mean this was outdated almost 20 years ago and the industry keeps on plugging it like it's something totally new every time they launch/re-launch a station and actually (snicker!) expect to fool radio audiences every time. Brand name stations ("MOViN", "JACK"), etc. rarely make it anywhere NEAR the number one station in any market.
What most actual listeners HATE about commercial radio is the industry CHRONICALLY plays the average listener for DUMB. Does your iPod do that? KEXP? I don't think so. Yes, it's an advertising medium on one SMALL end, but should be a HELL of a LOT more. No one is going to listen to the commercials if the rest of the format genuinely sucks.
KOMO does something really good with it's Driver To Driver, Neighbor To Neighbor coverage during freaky weather. It brings radio back to a LISTENER medium, encouraging listeners to participate in their own way in that format. The same concept can work with music stations as well. It's just that certain programmers need to take a step back and really get a listeners eye view that cannot be obtained through ratings books or PPM in itself. And when EVERY non-radio/advertising employee can qualify for and easily obtain a PPM rather than a select FEW, then I'll put more faith in it. The results will be a hell of a lot more accurate too.
Right now, station clusters are cannibalizing themselves in ways they may regret later on. Each station works best as an individual team. Not what the bean counters want to hear, but it is the TRUTH.
Bongwater said:
Bong, What should stations call themselves? What is left out there? The whole of media is suffering from lack of original material. Old movies, songs and TV shows are constantly being re-made. It seems that all the ideas have been used up. I, of course, don't agree with that. What should the next generation of radio stations be called? With PPM, there really is no need to ID yourself anymore. But everything needs a brand. We have animals and mixes and kisses and names like Jack and Bob... What's next?
A
AQH
Guest
Grindlfan said:
Can you please give an example or two of the "useless, incorrect information?" Please cite your source as well too, please.
Thanks!
AQH said:
Indeed! I for one am pins and needles waiting for the data to back up your statements Grindfan.
How about you Bong? You have unsuccessfully dodged every prior request to back up your claims of Urban CHR going away with data. Now is the time to enlighten us all with your extensive research.
Oh and your comment about the popularity of a radio station be based on the number of station tee shirt sightings?? I almost flipped over backwards in my overstuffed leather office chair, (with shiatsu massage), on that one. Good Lord that was funny. Unbelievable!!
G
Grindlfan
Guest
AQH said:
OK, I was referring to my own personal experience participating in one of the public survey/focus groups a few years ago held by a research company based out of the east side. This sampling of people was a joke, and in talking with the other participants they were not taking the survey seriously at all. It was only a way for them to collect $75 and eat some free food. I am sure this is only one ingredient in the recipe for screwing up the programming at a radio station, but the sooner you guys and gals stop paying those idiotic consultants and research groups to tell you what to play the better it will be for all of us. Or just stop playing music altogether and follow the example of TV and air paid infomercials incessantly. What you are doing now isn't much better than that anyway and is almost as painful.
A
AQH
Guest
Grindlfan said:
And there you have it folks, this is the basis of why consultants and research (which by the way are two separate things entirely) are bad for radio.
Attending a focus group and the polling of some friends in Skagit County. THOSE are the two reference sources as to how some people on this board know exactly what's going on in radio today.
Some Basic Truths As I Know Them ...
1) At any radio board over the last 20 years, someone will (with the regularity of the changing of the seasons) post a question similar to: What would you like to hear from radio? Nothing wrong with that, btw. But it's a regular occurence.
2) After the question is posted, the answers will be equally predictable. It's stuff along the lines of: More music. Less DJs. Less moronic stuff. More interaction. More contests. Too many contests. Less research-driven programming. More research. I like this that Kxxx does. I don't like what Kxxx does. And onandonandon.
3) Some inevitably will post a "my friends" reply. It might be a listener or a radio guy but there's at least one post that will say something similar to "I have a very wide range of friends and here's what they think ..."
4) This will always give me flashbacks to answering request lines to find a belligerent caller who demands I play a 20 year-old live cut from his favorite obscure artist. If I have a moment (rare) I will try to explain to him why we don't - and he'll cut me off with "All my friends at work want to hear it, too." I don't know a nice way to put it and Simon from Idol is busy but ... all his friends don't matter one bit statistically. In a market of 3,000,000 if he has 200 buddies who hate the station, it doesn't matter at all. When's the last time any of us changed anything due to phone calls or a few crank e-mails? Now if it's something personal, if a caller is somehow offended or p.o.'d by what I said, I'll listen and take it under consideration. Many times I've apologized and changed something I was doing because that's in my control and I'm a nice guy.
5) Nothing ever gets solved by these threads. It's like "what's your favorite headphones" stuff. That means little to few. With the way more cuts are coming down, I'm thinking we'll be lucky to even have a radio station, regardless of what it broadcasts.
6) Consultants suck. That's grindlfan's point. We all know this but it's hard to prove statistically. Consultants are paid to find flaws. That's why I detest air check sessions. It's easy to go over someone's work, one word at a time, and pick it apart. Very easy. No one will ever pay a consultant and get a one page report that says "Gee- you guys are great. And here's my bill for $50k." I like consultants for stats - I like to know stuff about the region, my target demo, listening patterns, etc. I don't need a note by note critique of every song or a dismantling of the air staff. I can do that myself.
7) AQH plays an interesting card but sadly, a familiar one. It's similar to what tubs of goo like Limbaugh or Dori do. If they decide (rarely) to let someone on who disagrees with them, they know the caller is nervous and the caller is invading the host's space. And they dismantle them. If grindlfan were to post "I read where scientists think global warming is real" the passive-aggressive personality will respond "Oh, really? That's unsettling news. Please give us your sources." And it always ends with a cheery "thanks!" which translates to: screw you. Now if you were to come back with "The article I read is in the January '09 issue of Scientific American by a Pulitzer Prize winning researcher" that will do no good. The host is ready with ten scientists who disagree. So what AQH really wants is an argument and a chance to embarrass grindlfan. There is no way AQH will EVER post: "Gee, I read that article and it got me to thinking. Maybe you're correct." The day you hear Dori or Rush or Hannity or any other gas bag say a similar statement will be the day Lucifer straps on his skates.
8) With those 3,000,000 listeners - counting us - no radio station will ever please any random group of ten, let alone this board. So no offense meant at all but this topic is a circular argument that will never change anything so ... why bother?
1) At any radio board over the last 20 years, someone will (with the regularity of the changing of the seasons) post a question similar to: What would you like to hear from radio? Nothing wrong with that, btw. But it's a regular occurence.
2) After the question is posted, the answers will be equally predictable. It's stuff along the lines of: More music. Less DJs. Less moronic stuff. More interaction. More contests. Too many contests. Less research-driven programming. More research. I like this that Kxxx does. I don't like what Kxxx does. And onandonandon.
3) Some inevitably will post a "my friends" reply. It might be a listener or a radio guy but there's at least one post that will say something similar to "I have a very wide range of friends and here's what they think ..."
4) This will always give me flashbacks to answering request lines to find a belligerent caller who demands I play a 20 year-old live cut from his favorite obscure artist. If I have a moment (rare) I will try to explain to him why we don't - and he'll cut me off with "All my friends at work want to hear it, too." I don't know a nice way to put it and Simon from Idol is busy but ... all his friends don't matter one bit statistically. In a market of 3,000,000 if he has 200 buddies who hate the station, it doesn't matter at all. When's the last time any of us changed anything due to phone calls or a few crank e-mails? Now if it's something personal, if a caller is somehow offended or p.o.'d by what I said, I'll listen and take it under consideration. Many times I've apologized and changed something I was doing because that's in my control and I'm a nice guy.
5) Nothing ever gets solved by these threads. It's like "what's your favorite headphones" stuff. That means little to few. With the way more cuts are coming down, I'm thinking we'll be lucky to even have a radio station, regardless of what it broadcasts.
6) Consultants suck. That's grindlfan's point. We all know this but it's hard to prove statistically. Consultants are paid to find flaws. That's why I detest air check sessions. It's easy to go over someone's work, one word at a time, and pick it apart. Very easy. No one will ever pay a consultant and get a one page report that says "Gee- you guys are great. And here's my bill for $50k." I like consultants for stats - I like to know stuff about the region, my target demo, listening patterns, etc. I don't need a note by note critique of every song or a dismantling of the air staff. I can do that myself.
7) AQH plays an interesting card but sadly, a familiar one. It's similar to what tubs of goo like Limbaugh or Dori do. If they decide (rarely) to let someone on who disagrees with them, they know the caller is nervous and the caller is invading the host's space. And they dismantle them. If grindlfan were to post "I read where scientists think global warming is real" the passive-aggressive personality will respond "Oh, really? That's unsettling news. Please give us your sources." And it always ends with a cheery "thanks!" which translates to: screw you. Now if you were to come back with "The article I read is in the January '09 issue of Scientific American by a Pulitzer Prize winning researcher" that will do no good. The host is ready with ten scientists who disagree. So what AQH really wants is an argument and a chance to embarrass grindlfan. There is no way AQH will EVER post: "Gee, I read that article and it got me to thinking. Maybe you're correct." The day you hear Dori or Rush or Hannity or any other gas bag say a similar statement will be the day Lucifer straps on his skates.
8) With those 3,000,000 listeners - counting us - no radio station will ever please any random group of ten, let alone this board. So no offense meant at all but this topic is a circular argument that will never change anything so ... why bother?
I'm sorry, but I don't buy that at all anymore. Rarely does the mountain play non-singles anymore, instead you get their Mountain Music Lounge recordings of the same studio-singles they probably played 90 minutes ago.TU1 said:
Just before Christmas they had a deep-dive weekend, but instead of deep-diving, they would play a new song, and an older song. We listened all weekend while I was painting, and I didn't hear anything I don't usually hear over the course of a few weeks.
The Mountain really has become boring and mediocre for my family. Time to change the staff? Besides Marty Reemer, I couldn't name the other employees, even though I'm pretty sure they've been there since the station started (Finally a Station that plays the EAAAAAA-Gles).
A
am4life
Guest
Quo said:
Personally, I still enjoy the talent on the station. It's the programming I can't stand. It has really changed over the last couple years, to the point where I have pretty much stopped listening.
I'm still chuckling over Bong's new rating system based on the number of tee shirt sightings! THAT my friends, is a snapshot of Bong's scientific methodology of why Urban CHR is dying...tee shirts!! 
AQH said:
Say you take anti-depressants or you smoke. All companies will price that differently. Now woven parsley shop companies that kiss our wasses to find you the best deal!
Grindlfan said:
Yeah, more about Dual Action Cleanse and Coke-U-10 and Co enzyme ke U-10
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