What's going on with the KJR trimulcast?

[boombox4]

All this talk about callsigns and how important they look in this situation..... I thought callsigns were passe? I.e., didn't matter for marketing? They sure seem to. 1090 has gone from KPTK to KFNQ (sometimes referred to as "KJR") to KPTR in just one decade.

 

[Kelly A]

All this talk about callsigns and how important they look in this situation..... I thought callsigns were passe? I.e., didn't matter for marketing? They sure seem to. 1090 has gone from KPTK to KFNQ (sometimes referred to as "KJR") to KPTR in just one decade.

Seriously? You don't understand the concept that sometimes call letters are a brand, and sometimes not? If the positioning becomes KJR equals sports, then there's nothing unusual with using that as a brand, in spite of it not being the actual call letter of record.
Use of call letters isn't binary.

 

[KilowattKat]

The Patriot is impressive...by how boring it is. 1090's best period as Talk is still back when it was KING-AM "Your Conversation Source" with Mike Siegal in the afternoon.

 

[dxsphere]

I don't see The Patriot getting a rating above 0.1 share

 

[AuxRSS]

When I heard the switch was happening Monday, I thought I heard that the daytime talk programming (6a-6p M-F) would be simulcast on FM and AM for a limited time. That was not the case - the 1090 sports programming came over in total to 950.

Whoever here first reported that 1090 would be flipped to conservative talk deserves a Coke. I personally would not have switched because I prefer generic sports talk to generic conservative talk, but the experts were correct and the 1090 ratings (rarely above 0.1) didn't mandate keeping the sports format.

As far as play-by-play rights, iHeart's strategy is obvious. The big-ticket properties (Kraken, UW football, Westwood One NFL football) will be carried on KJR-FM. The lesser properties (Sounders, UW basketball, other NFL football) will be carried on KJR-AM. The Thunderbirds are apparently locked on to 1090, so their games will air on The Patriot this Wednesday and Friday and the WHL playoffs.

(Edit: As I type, tonight's Kraken game
is being simulcast on KJR AM and FM. Today's talk programming was not.)

 

[boombox4]

Seriously? You don't understand the concept that sometimes call letters are a brand, and sometimes not? If the positioning becomes KJR equals sports, then there's nothing unusual with using that as a brand, in spite of it not being the actual call letter of record.
Use of call letters isn't binary.

Seriously, I don't know how many times I've seen the experts here on RD say that call letters are meaningless, and they especially go after anyone who talks about heritage call letters, basically accusing them of living in the past.

 

[davideduardo]

Seriously, I don't know how many times I've seen the experts here on RD say that call letters are meaningless, and they especially go after anyone who talks about heritage call letters, basically accusing them of living in the past.

Call letter are harder to remember than station names and for that reason are not to be preferred. But if a station has a history of call letter identity, then changing is riskier than staying with the known commodity. In other words, heritage calls that are known by a station's target audience are OK and probably not worth changing unless the "brand" is very tarnished.

A study was done by Arbitron using a market where nearly every station used names vs one where far fewer did. This was back around 2001 when the "known by name" market was Mexico City.

In the name-based market, the average person could give the names of 8 stations without aided recall. In the predominantly call letter based market, the average was 4 stations. To level the playing field a bit, the study was done with adults over 35 where in the US market the older targeted stations used call letters or names based on calls... such as "CBS-FM" or WOR or WQXR or WCBS or Lite.

So the conclusion was that if a station had strong, established call letters, continuing to use them for identity was OK. But for a new launch where there was no heritage, then it was far better to use a name.

Obviously, if a strong call letter brand is abandoned and another station wants to pick the identity up, there may be value there but only if the brand is currently still strong and creating a new brand would take too much time and money.

 

[Kelly A]

Seriously, I don't know how many times I've seen the experts here on RD say that call letters are meaningless, and they especially go after anyone who talks about heritage call letters, basically accusing them of living in the past.

Surprising that he had to; but David explained it well.

What happens on this board, is somehow call letters are treated as some kind of permanent identity for a radio station, especially with historical calls like KOMO, or using call letters as a brand for multiple stations or streaming. Many seem to believe that changing calls, or identifying with a slogan, means something to a listener. Newsflash: 99.9% of radio listeners are concerned about where they get what content, not call letters. You folks here are in the .1% of listeners who pay attention to call letters verses what amounts simple branding.
I don't think a case can be made that listeners jump ship from a station just because of a call letter change.

 

[guruofradio]

In diary markets frequency is actually more important than call letters/name of station. Most diary holders identify by frequency. PPM changed that, where you need to remember the name/frequency easily so you remember where to tune in but not to remember what you listened to that day. In PPM it is truly all about content as Kelly points out. An earlier post suggests THE PATRIOT will get little ratings, it doesn't matter. AM Talk radio it is not a ratings game, but a vehicle to clear national inventory and sell weekend programs that drive revenue. KTTH, KVI and Patriot will all dwell at the bottom of the ratings. Sports radio will also not do well, outside of isolated big sports towns, or a handful of local personality sports shows that transcend the format. However revenue is growing in the format thanks to sports betting/casinos and non-traditional business. For conservative talk and for sports it is really not a ratings play its a revenue play. Music radio survives on ratings and agency ad revenue that has been declining over the last five years, which is part of why so many are moving to spoken word, which relies less on ratings and doesn't have to pay ever increasing royalty fees for music.

 

[Kelly A]

Guru speaks the truth.
Back when the company I worked for did our own call-out research, over 80% of the respondents came back with frequency, or for TV, channel number. The rest mainly came back with 'I know when I press this button on my car radio, I hear: XXXX-music or talk show.' Then you had to interpret what station they meant by shows or music mentioned. Now with PPM, it's saved listeners the trouble of remembering what station or stream they were listening-to or TV program being watched.

 

[ZantennaG1]

However, a heritage callsign can be a useful hook for people to associate a station with it's heyday. It doesn't work in all situations (nor am I trying to say that it does), but some stations can bank on a level of trust that a 3-letter callsign can bring.

 

[ZantennaG1]

In diary markets frequency is actually more important than call letters/name of station. Most diary holders identify by frequency. PPM changed that, where you need to remember the name/frequency easily so you remember where to tune in but not to remember what you listened to that day. In PPM it is truly all about content as Kelly points out. An earlier post suggests THE PATRIOT will get little ratings, it doesn't matter. AM Talk radio it is not a ratings game, but a vehicle to clear national inventory and sell weekend programs that drive revenue. KTTH, KVI and Patriot will all dwell at the bottom of the ratings. Sports radio will also not do well, outside of isolated big sports towns, or a handful of local personality sports shows that transcend the format. However revenue is growing in the format thanks to sports betting/casinos and non-traditional business. For conservative talk and for sports it is really not a ratings play its a revenue play. Music radio survives on ratings and agency ad revenue that has been declining over the last five years, which is part of why so many are moving to spoken word, which relies less on ratings and doesn't have to pay ever increasing royalty fees for music.

AM Radio has turned into one big timeshare agreement. We'll keep your station afloat-ish if you let us broker out programming that attracts people who are very set in their ways. And on weekends, we'll straight up run infomercials that are weird (looking at you, 630 KHOW in Denver. HOW far have they fallen!)

Call letter are harder to remember than station names and for that reason are not to be preferred. But if a station has a history of call letter identity, then changing is riskier than staying with the known commodity. In other words, heritage calls that are known by a station's target audience are OK and probably not worth changing unless the "brand" is very tarnished.

A study was done by Arbitron using a market where nearly every station used names vs one where far fewer did. This was back around 2001 when the "known by name" market was Mexico City.

In the name-based market, the average person could give the names of 8 stations without aided recall. In the predominantly call letter based market, the average was 4 stations. To level the playing field a bit, the study was done with adults over 35 where in the US market the older targeted stations used call letters or names based on calls... such as "CBS-FM" or WOR or WQXR or WCBS or Lite.

So the conclusion was that if a station had strong, established call letters, continuing to use them for identity was OK. But for a new launch where there was no heritage, then it was far better to use a name.

Obviously, if a strong call letter brand is abandoned and another station wants to pick the identity up, there may be value there but only if the brand is currently still strong and creating a new brand would take too much time and money.

I too, am more likely to recognize a brand name like Froggy, KISS, KOOL, Coyote (let me cycle back to that one), the Party, Hot, "News/Talk ###", etc. Actually, I really like what KIOD McCook did. They are "Coyote Country 105.3" which is the pronunciation of their callsign. Highly successful to me!

Guru speaks the truth.
Back when the company I worked for did our own call-out research, over 80% of the respondents came back with frequency, or for TV, channel number. The rest mainly came back with 'I know when I press this button on my car radio, I hear: XXXX-music or talk show.' Then you had to interpret what station they meant by shows or music mentioned. Now with PPM, it's saved listeners the trouble of remembering what station or stream they were listening-to or TV program being watched.

What about the 90% of people Nielsen doesn't select to have a PPM meter?

 

[Kelly A]

AM Radio has turned into one big timeshare agreement. We'll keep your station afloat-ish if you let us broker out programming that attracts people who are very set in their ways. And on weekends, we'll straight up run infomercials that are weird (looking at you, 630 KHOW in Denver. HOW far have they fallen!)

I too, am more likely to recognize a brand name like Froggy, KISS, KOOL, Coyote (let me cycle back to that one), the Party, Hot, "News/Talk ###", etc. Actually, I really like what KIOD McCook did. They are "Coyote Country 105.3" which is the pronunciation of their callsign. Highly successful to me!

What about the 90% of people Nielsen doesn't select to have a PPM meter?

What about them? I just said that in call-out research over the years, the vast majority of respondents identify station by frequency or content, not call letters. 'I listen to that sports talk station with Softy', or; I listen to Classic Rock. Just because you identify stations by calls, doesn't mean the majority of radio listeners do.

 

[ZantennaG1]

What about them?

You kind of threw me off by this sentence:

Now with PPM, it's saved listeners the trouble of remembering what station or stream they were listening-to or TV program being watched

So does having the device in the car, uh, impact how they behave in the same way that a camera would? "I really started being conscious of my radio habits" is something I might say.

I just said that in call-out research over the years, the vast majority of respondents identify station by frequency or content, not call letters. 'I listen to that sports talk station with Softy', or; I listen to Classic Rock. Just because you identify stations by calls, doesn't mean the majority of radio listeners do.

I nearly forgot, but people sometimes cling to a specific show. "It's that station with Jubal in the mornings!" or "I tune my radio to Delilah in the evenings" or "My preset is Tom Kit in the afternoons!" You make a good point about how people describe stations to friends, lime the sports talk Softy example.

 

[Kelly A]

You kind of threw me off by this sentence:

You asked what about the audience that wasn't participating as a PPM panelist.

So does having the device in the car, uh, impact how they behave in the same way that a camera would? "I really started being conscious of my radio habits" is something I might say.

Unlike someone tasked with filling out a diary, or participate in call out research, there's no action of writing down or memory required for a PPM participant. You just wear the device and go about your day.

I nearly forgot, but people sometimes cling to a specific show. "It's that station with Jubal in the mornings!" or "I tune my radio to Delilah in the evenings" or "My preset is Tom Kit in the afternoons!" You make a good point about how people describe stations to friends, lime the sports talk Softy example.

And that's exactly what's been found over many years.

 

[ZantennaG1]

You asked what about the audience that wasn't participating as a PPM panelist.

Unlike someone tasked with filling out a diary, or participate in call out research, there's no action of writing down or memory required for a PPM participant. You just wear the device and go about your day.

Okay, that's pretty neat. So it's 100% automatic, no user input required?

And that's exactly what's been found over many years.

😀

By the way, since 950 KJR is going straight to genric FOX Sports programming (or possibly one of those betting networks), I question if their ratings could trench out around 0.9, considering the whole discussion about callsigns and the fact that sports is about as limited in audience scope as Country or Rap seems to be?

 

[KilowattKat]

Let's say 1090 never rises above a 0 1 share, and the cleared syndicated shows have a very small audience. Are they really generating that much additional revenue for iheart to make it worthwhile. Considering how old and the small number of listeners they'll have, it can't be much. Any guesses on how much it will be? I'll bet Adult Standards KIXI brings in more revenue than KPTR.

 

[Kelly A]

Okay, that's pretty neat. So it's 100% automatic, no user input required?

Correct. Just pack around a small device and it listens to what you're listening to.

By the way, since 950 KJR is going straight to genric FOX Sports programming (or possibly one of those betting networks), I question if their ratings could trench out around 0.9, considering the whole discussion about callsigns and the fact that sports is about as limited in audience scope as Country or Rap seems to be?

When stations are in a group situation, their sales teams typically sell the demographic reach which their stable of stations serve. Not ratings.

 

[Kelly A]

Let's say 1090 never rises above a 0 1 share, and the cleared syndicated shows have a very small audience.

Depends on the syndicated shows and the paid programming around it. As mentioned with ZantennaG1; group sales teams sell demo reach across their market group, and certainly not via 6+ ratings.

Are they really generating that much additional revenue for iheart to make it worthwhile.

If there is still accrued debt on the station, it needs to earn it's keep. Paid and syndicated programming is about the only viable options for AM stations these days.

Considering how old and the small number of listeners they'll have, it can't be much.

Again; 6+ numbers are meaningless.

I'll bet Adult Standards KIXI brings in more revenue than KPTR.

I wouldn't make that bet. KIXI is a money loser.

 

[ZantennaG1]

Let's say 1090 never rises above a 0 1 share, and the cleared syndicated shows have a very small audience. Are they really generating that much additional revenue for iheart to make it worthwhile. Considering how old and the small number of listeners they'll have, it can't be much. Any guesses on how much it will be? I'll bet Adult Standards KIXI brings in more revenue than KPTR.

Revenues for these shows almost certainly come from a roundabout method, probably something in the brokerage.

Correct. Just pack around a small device and it listens to what you're listening to.

You don't even have to strap it to your arm, or something?

Depends on the syndicated shows and the paid programming around it. As mentioned with ZantennaG1; group sales teams sell demo reach across their market group, and certainly not via 6+ ratings.

If there is still accrued debt on the station, it needs to earn it's keep. Paid and syndicated programming is about the only viable options for AM stations these days.

Again; 6+ numbers are meaningless.

I wouldn't make that bet. KIXI is a money loser.

I see. Also, I noticed that the shortwave stations that are still hanging on (probably by a loose thread here) also use syndication and underwritings that you describe, right?