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What's Happening With WHLI's Listeners?

K

kevinsealy

WHLI has a devoted listenership for the longest time. But it the recent monthly Arbitron in July, the station has lost more than half of its listenership from the previous month.

WHLI which still bills itself as an Adult Standards station, plays mostly mild Rock 'N' Roll Oldies /AC from the 50s, 60s and 70s over Pop Standards of the 40s. But could not have had a significant loss of listenership in such a short time span.





Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy
 
And you'd figure them to do a bit better with the padding provided them by the longer days of the season. The PPMs in particular haven't been especially kind to them.

I'm living now about 150 miles from there, and am no longer in the business, but I follow the Long Island books and those in other markets. Dismissing for a moment the likelihood that WHLI's entire audience passed away in five years (if only because WOR's hasn't), that leaves one glaring parallel I've been able to consider.

Dean Anthony leaving us. Just like Joe Niagara of WPEN did.

Niagara didn't program WPEN the way Anthony did with WHLI. But the two stations were very, very similar in sound -- great, breezy listening companionship. And a lot of steam went out of WPEN when Niagara (also an afternoon-drive jock with true Top 40 background) was called away to Sock-hop Heaven. Tradition cannot be replaced.

Maybe it's the sentimentalist in me speaking. Maybe the bulk of the audience for that genre of music has departed. WPEN's numbers plummeted slightly sooner than WHLI's were to do, but the timing was generally similar. Yet, both those fellows certainly were at their respective helms and getting some serious numbers on AM radio stations long after that form of music *already* had been considered useless by modern programmers. The efforts of both those gentlemen may have had a lot to do with that longevity.
 
Personally I don't think going to the "golden oldies" format helped them one iota. I am 61 and grew up on the crap they are playing now. Even then I was more interested in the humor from the jocks than the crappy 4 chord songs. I used to have WHLI and WCBS FM as the only music stations in my presets. WHLI because I love the music of the great American Songbook and standards and the great singers who performed them. WCBS FM because they had gotten away from the crap WHLI is playing NOW..and moved up to the I think better and more diverse music of the 70 and 80's. So I had one standards and one pop station and the rest of the time NPR and talkradio was my choice. One other reason I had HLI and CBS as my music stations is we had no country station. Admittedly since WJVC came on the air and since I moved to suffolk I started listening to country 92.5 and later WJVC quite a bit. I will say this though, if WHLI went back to playing the American Songbook, I'd be listening. One other thing...they might be a bit more interesting if they went back to 3 DJ clock rather than just two..I mean how many times can you hear the same schtick. I still like the current crop of DJ's on CBS-Fm, but with the advent of the country stations my music listening has been veering in that direction, and the country station is skewed very young by the way.
 
Talk Show Guy,

To me WHLI sounds like a cross between the WNEW-AM 1130 of the 1970s where they would play a Sinatra or Nat King Cole record mixed in with five songs by the Carpenters, Neil Diamond, Barry Manilow, Barbra Streisand, Dionne Warkwick and their like, and WCBS-FM the way they sounded 20 years ago.

This is not to say there's something wrong with their music mix.Musically WHLI sounds like a good station; I like the music they are playing.





Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy
 
We're cut from almost the same cloth, Kevin. You and I are from the same neighborhood, have studied meteorology, and have spent time evaluating the potential of female volunteers, lol.

That said (half in jest of course) : WHLI, up to maybe five years ago, was an only-game-in-town. They had that monopoly THEN and went with it amid great success. Aside from the infrequent 2011 crossover songs with B-103, those same only-game-in-town conditions exist. Yet, according to the ratings -- and that plunge began before the PPM's -- WHLI's audience has vanished. Listeners are no longer treating them as an only-game-in-town. And you're right to ask why.

1) Many have passed away?
2) Leaders Dino and Niagara have, too?
3) More Michael Buble and less Rosemary?
4) PPM's -- to some extent ?
5) Most of the above?
 
PPM's can be devastating to a day timer pitching to older folks who dont drive as much as younger folks...who listen elsewhere. But Steve the remark about it sounding like the later day version of WNEW-Am rings quite true...and that format blending began the decline of WNEW AM, just as I think its killing WHLI...I mean the other day I put it on and there was Ella singing a great jazz standard.....into the Ventures playing Hawaii 5-0...come on. There is no continuity there, and while I grew up on the Ventures, do you for a moment think they did anything near the complexity and dynamics of anything Ella ever recorded. I think they need to revamp their programming to something more cohesive. It's too "all over the place" now, and that approach rarely satisfies anyone.
 
Talk Show Guy,


What I think what killed WNEW-AM, eventhough this thread should be about WHLI, is that when WNEW started mixing in AC with their Standards in the late 80s they should've kept it. Instead, WNEW cut back on AC in 1991. They should've let their younger audience grow.

When it comes to WHLI, maybe the dip in their ratings is just short term and will see their ratings return to where they were earlier.



Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy
 
Well, Kevin, with all due respect to you, we will agree to disagree. To me it's like mixing in hip hop tunes on CBS FM, the split format is annoying because they are mixing in some pretty crappy music with some great American Standards. One exudes a certain the class, the other a certain simplicity. Whatever...the "sounds" don't mix well to my ear and I listen to all kinds of music and all kinds of radio stations. I supposed you could argue there is no other place to go for the music of the 50's and 60's and early 70's even, and that is true, but I don't think WHLI's pitch should be to Octogenarians, however the format should be consistent, so it'd be OK to mix in Harry Connick, Jr., Norah Jones, some Barry Manilow (check out the Swing Album) Manhattan Transfer, Diana Krall, John Pizzarelli, Micheal Buble, even Rod Stewart and Linda Ronstadt who recorded great interpretations of the great American songbook and who are modern artists, along with Ella, Sinatra, Bennett, et al...That would be a consistent mix...I'd even mix in some great jazz, like Brubeck, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, Thad Lewis, etc..which would also be consistent and I'd throw in some swing..Goodman, Miller, Dorsey etc... I would pitch this to a younger generation that does not just listen to Hip Hop and Rock. Many are educated in this type of music, and like all music there is a time and place for it in the diet. As to fans of 50-s and 60-s...I don't have an answer other than there should be a radio station for that. 740 would have been perfect, but Dr. Yoon was only interested in leasing it out--to anyone. 540 would also be a good signal for it...but again the owner just wanted to lease it. And 1240 would be good. They do have Mickie B on Friday nights. But the owner is more interested on only airing Chinese during the daytime hours when the signal is strong. That leaves Sirius XM.
 
A sliver of the issue -- a small sliver to be sure -- is the appeal of the Standards to the 'kids' of the original WWII listeners. We were made aware of it .... Mitch Miller, Lawrence Welk, Your Hit Parade .... back in the rock-and-roll years just as out rock-and-roll could not be avoided by our parents.

Just a few anecdotes:
A buddy of mine was an avid WABC listener back in the day. He'd insist that we listen to them even on trips, rather than, say, WAVZ New Haven or WHUC Hudson, or even the grand WHVW Hyde Park. When WABC went to Talk, he went to WCBS-FM. He later wound up at the next station -- WQCD and their Smooth Jazz. The only thing I can figure is that WCBS-FM wasn't getting the job done for him, causing him to turn to other musical forms.

For some reason, I was whistling 'America' at work one night. A gal co-worker there, 14 years younger than I, and from farm country PA, surprised me by asking, 'Isn't that from West Side Story?' So likely, the parental musical tastes were communicated to her as well. Imagine -- someone born in 1961 considering a Broadway Standard *familiar*. She was in her late Thirties when she IDed the song.

There's always lots of discussion about people's musical tastes evolving as they get older. A pal of mine up this way occasionally will have T-102 playing in his pickup. But T-102, as great as they are, also has a double-edged sword for a transmitting tower ; by many they're considered the kiddie station and the girl's station. My pal's newest pre-set is a translator in St. Clair that plays Contemporary Christian songs.

Same pal. He had a display at a town-wide yard sale a few weeks back. He asked me to run it while he took off on other errands with his kids (presumably to find bargains himself : -) I already had walked a few blocks, scoping out the 'competition'. No one was playing music! I had my portable with me, and was playing WWSM 1510 at a discreet enough level to go maybe a house on each side. Our front stoop and sidewalk wound up with a number of people who paused to peruse longer than at the other displays. WWSM plays traditional Country-Western. I men, there was a woman YODELING for three minutes! One paserby/lurker wanted to know what the station was. another wanted to buy the radio (no way). I guess you could call us the only-game-in-town at that point.

I sent an air check of Gene Klavan to a pal. 1975 may have been the air date. He was amazed at a Standards station playing the Supremes, 10CC, and even Glen Campbell. The feeling here is that WNEW at the time was trying to get their demos a little younger. I thought that adding rock and roll names of ANY sort to the roster was a mistake. Sorry ; mellow Presley and mellow Beatles are wrong. Just my opinion.

Thing is ... With not too many formats available anymore for those 50-plus .... and with the museum stations treating everyone with disimissal through 300-song playlists .... pure Standards or even pure NEW Standards (such as by the artists listed by TalkRadioGuy) .... common sense says that there still should be a sizable audience for a station to succeed. Arguably, there might even be room for TWO such stations -- the traditional form and the newer form. So I don't think its a matter of mix at WHLI which results in those low numbers.

Perhaps the problem is the programming or staging. Perhaps their biggest core audience has largely passed on (in Philadelphia too). The leadership factor -- the marquee names of Anthony and Niagara and Spector -- may play a role.

Yet, Classical and Jazz .... formats even older .... have aged more gracefully. And shoestring-run WOR gets it's 2.0 every book. Confusing.
 
Talk Show Guy,

>>>Well, Kevin, with all due respect to you, we will agree to disagree. To me it's like mixing in hip hop tunes on CBS FM, the split format is annoying because they are mixing in some pretty crappy music with some great American Standards. One exudes a certain the class, the other a certain simplicity. Whatever...the "sounds" don't mix well to my ear and I listen to all kinds of music and all kinds of radio stations. I supposed you could argue there is no other place to go for the music of the 50's and 60's and early 70's even, and that is true, but I don't think WHLI's pitch should be to Octogenarians, however the format should be consistent, so it'd be OK to mix in Harry Connick, Jr., Norah Jones, some Barry Manilow (check out the Swing Album) Manhattan Transfer, Diana Krall, John Pizzarelli, Micheal Buble, even Rod Stewart and Linda Ronstadt who recorded great interpretations of the great American songbook and who are modern artists, along with Ella, Sinatra, Bennett, et al...That would be a consistent mix...I'd even mix in some great jazz, like Brubeck, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, Thad Lewis, etc..which would also be consistent and I'd throw in some swing..Goodman, Miller, Dorsey etc... I would pitch this to a younger generation that does not just listen to Hip Hop and Rock.<<<


Correct me if I'm wrong. There's nothing that we disagree much on except that mixing in music that we've known as Adult Contemporary or MOR over the past 40 years doesn't mix well with the Big Bands and Pop Standards. I think the music of the Carpenters, Neil Diamond and their like sound well next to Sinatra and Ella which WNEW tried in the 70s and WHLI is going today.

But I do agree that Hop-Hop played next to the Beatles and Motown on CBS-FM isn't appetizing to the ear.

If a Classical music station could acheive respectable ratings in New York, why can't a Pop Stnadards station do even better. (This is not just a question).





Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy
 
StveGreenPA,

>>>I sent an air check of Gene Klavan to a pal. 1975 may have been the air date. He was amazed at a Standards station playing the Supremes, 10CC, and even Glen Campbell. The feeling here is that WNEW at the time was trying to get their demos a little younger. I thought that adding rock and roll names of ANY sort to the roster was a mistake. Sorry ; mellow Presley and mellow Beatles are wrong. Just my opinion.<<<

This sounds like an aircheck of the Gene Klavan show on WNEW August 5, 9-10AM 1975.



Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy
 
Without starting a new thread, the latest Arbitron PPM shows that WHLI had no ratings nor any Cume. This is a sad state that we have a radio station that plays some of America's Best Music Ever Made, and has a microscopic listening audience.

I would hope at best that WHLI's were on a summer vacation.


Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy
 
Problem with WHLI is that they ditched the Adult Standards a few years after Dean Anthony died and started playing, for lack of better terms, a "revisionalist" standards format... traditional and new cuts performed by new artists. If I wanna hear Witchcraft, i want it to be Sinatra, not Buble. The station became too smart for the room playing unfamiliar songs and unfamiliar versions of songs. It killed them in the ratings.

The format on now is much better but needs to be tweaked. I don't think mixing in modern artists is the answer, I think maybe pulling back on some of the pop/rock n roll cuts would help, but the Buble/Rod Stewart stuff is what ran the train off the tracks the first time. In the last year of that format (before 2009), the station was almost exclusively playing new stuff and down in the 2's and 1's... a long way away from the 3's and 4's.

And, yes, PPM hasn't helped. face it, there may be no answer for an AM music daytimer in 2011.
 
wgliradio said:
Problem with WHLI is that they ditched the Adult Standards a few years after Dean Anthony died and started playing, for lack of better terms, a "revisionalist" standards format... traditional and new cuts performed by new artists. If I wanna hear Witchcraft, i want it to be Sinatra, not Buble. The station became too smart for the room playing unfamiliar songs and unfamiliar versions of songs. It killed them in the ratings.

The format on now is much better but needs to be tweaked. I don't think mixing in modern artists is the answer, I think maybe pulling back on some of the pop/rock n roll cuts would help, but the Buble/Rod Stewart stuff is what ran the train off the tracks the first time. In the last year of that format (before 2009), the station was almost exclusively playing new stuff and down in the 2's and 1's... a long way away from the 3's and 4's.

And, yes, PPM hasn't helped. face it, there may be no answer for an AM music daytimer in 2011.
Click to expand...
You are right...Buble? It's like Leroy Anderson plays the Beatles...
 
Does WHLI play anything from Pat Boone's 'In A Metal Mood' album?

Or did they ever?

'No More Mr. Nice Guy' ... 'Stairway To Heaven' (out-RAGEOUS!) ?

Ironic that WHLI's entire remaining audience evaporated completely since Kevin Sealy's post. Maybe the whole crew *did* go on Rapture leave.

But I still won't want to hear Blondie's version on WHLI or on any nostalgia station.
 
The ratings WHLI got in the early part of this century (the 3s and 4s that one writer mentioned) are impossible for a daytimer in the PPM world. Whereas Arbitron didn't count the hours when the station had to legally signoff against them with diaries, it does for some reason with the PPM. No matter how well or poorly the station in question does during the day, it starts collecting goose eggs at sunset.

How many local stations really "sell" the book? It seems by listening that most of this station's advertisers are on due to results not ratings points.
 
The PPM/diary dichotomy wouldn't explain the swift and parallel plummet of WPEN, though. Major.

Okay, WPEN's directional nighttime signal didn't benefit them at all. But they reached about half the daytime suburbs as well as draping the city proper at night. And if there were any old couples holding hands and listening to Glenn Miller at 10 PM instead of watching Murder She Wrote or the Phillies or Bonanza or Matlock, they had to be in the minority within a minority.

I'm just having a hard time believing -- maybe accepting? -- that WPEN's audience all died in the past seven years or so. Yet, that might be the case.

* * * * *

Even though I agree with WGLI radio about the effect of the Buble, Stewart, et al invasion being over-emphasized, I *did* and do enjoy Michael Feinstein's stuff very much. It fit right in, to my ears, and evidently to the ears of other diaryholders. And WPEN was playing him as though he were Nat King Cole during their great ratings era.
 
I think that what has happened with the standards audience aging is that broadcasters thought they could segue the format to oldies and that they could still stay in business. I think that mixing up-tempo oldies with standards is a mistake. The two genres aren't compatible. A better mix would be to 'standards' with light hits and maybe some music by modern crooners (e.g. Connick, Jr.) and 'croonettes' (e.g. Diana Krall). In doing this, it might be best to stick with as many originals as possible. Events the station might want to sponsor could include concerts and dances.

Albany's WROW seems to be a good example of how a modern day 'MOR' format should be run.
 
klutchoo,

I tend to disagree somewhat when it comes to mixing Standards with up-tempo oldies. If WABC had success mixing Sinatra with the Beatles and Motown, and WHTZ-100 segueing from Grand Master Flash to Quiet Riot WHLI should have no proplem Playing Ella next Dion and the Belmonts.

Going back to the 1970s, WNEW-AM in any given hour you've heard a song by Sinatra, Nat King Cole and Tony Bennett in the same set with James Taylor, Carly Simon, Carole King, the Carpenters, Neil Diamond and the Fifth Dimension.





Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy
 
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