What's the difference between WXYZ-FM and WXYZ(FM)?

[575]

Subject says it all... what's the difference between WXYZ-FM and WXYZ(FM)?

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Personal keyboard habits?

 

[LA_Guy]

WXYZ-FM is an FCC call sign (and also means that there is an WXYZ AM also)

Because AM radio came first, AM's always get preference with calls. There will never be a WXYZ-AM, because AM's always qualify for the 'root' call letters before FMs and TVs.

So, if you have an FM with the WXYZ calls and an AM wants to use those calls (with your permission), the FCC will do two call letter changes: First they will change the AM's calls to WXYZ and then change the FM's calls to WXYZ-FM.

The reverse can happen too...when WHDH AM in Boston gave up their calls after 60+ years, the FCC made two call letter changes. First, it changed the 850 calls to WEEI and then it changed the TV channel 7 calls from WHDH-TV to just WHDH.

The parentheses simply are a convention to tell you that a single is an FM or TV. Remember what we said above: the presumption is that a single set of calls is an AM By using WXYZ(FM), we're letting people know that there is no WXYZ AM.

Get it?

I know it's confusing....

 

[DanStrassberg]

I know it's confusing....

That's exactly how it is SUPPOSED to work, though, as far as I know. BUT, I don't think it has always worked that way. Or maybe sometimes somebody at the Cookie Company screws up and they don't go back to correct their error.

Case in point (first one I checked out; I think I could find others, but I don't have the time): WQXR-FM in New York. This station was originally WQXQ (FM) and, back when it was WQXQ (before the FCC allowed the -FM suffix), it mostly simulcast co-owned WQXR (AM). After the FCC allowed the -FM suffix, the WQXQ calls were changed to WQXR-FM. When WQXR (AM) became WQEW, there appears to have been NO change in the WQXR-FM calls. As far as I can tell, it is still WQXR-FM, even though there is no longer any WQXR (AM) and there is no WQXR-TV. I've always ascribed the anomaly to somebody at the FCC asking "why bother?" And by NOT bothering, the FCC has made life a little easier for itself in the event that the owner of WQXR (The New York Times Co) ever accepts payment from another broadcaster to allow the use of the WQXR calls on AM. WQXR (AM) could exist once again (though the Times would be unlikely to allow it in New York) without the need to change the WQXR-FM calls in any way.

 

[van hespen]

Wow. I'm really glad this wasn't a trick question. I started breaking out in a sweat looking for my #2 pencil.

 

[busyradioguy]

WXYZ-FM is an FCC call sign (and also means that there is an WXYZ AM also)

Because AM radio came first, AM's always get preference with calls. There will never be a WXYZ-AM, because AM's always qualify for the 'root' call letters before FMs and TVs.

So, if you have an FM with the WXYZ calls and an AM wants to use those calls (with your permission), the FCC will do two call letter changes: First they will change the AM's calls to WXYZ and then change the FM's calls to WXYZ-FM.

The reverse can happen too...when WHDH AM in Boston gave up their calls after 60+ years, the FCC made two call letter changes. First, it changed the 850 calls to WEEI and then it changed the TV channel 7 calls from WHDH-TV to just WHDH.

The parentheses simply are a convention to tell you that a single is an FM or TV. Remember what we said above: the presumption is that a single set of calls is an AM By using WXYZ(FM), we're letting people know that there is no WXYZ AM.

Get it?

I know it's confusing....

I believe the question was, what is the diffference between how people type it. You know, like WXYZ-FM vs WXYZ(FM) vs WXYZFM vs WXYZ.FM vs WXYZ<FM>...

 

[passtheword]

I've never understood why the FCC didn't automatically drop the "-FM" suffix off of stations when a co-owned AM in the same area dropped the calls (those stations still have access to the calls, anyhow). There are hundreds of FM's which have the "-FM" suffix without a corresponding AM with the same calls. The -FM suffix poses three possible scenarios/problems:

-The FM that still has the -FM suffix ends up ID'ing without it anyhow. One example I can think of is WBAM-FM in Montgomery, which still retains the -FM suffix, even though their AM hasn't used those calls in probably 20 years or more. I've heard WBAM-FM ID many times as just "WBAM".

-Some FM's which don't have the -FM suffix add it on during their ID, anyhow. For instance, WMXS in Montgomery. They don't have the -FM suffix but always ID as WMXS-FM, implying there's a WMXS(AM), which there isn't and never has been, at least in Montgomery.

-FM stations which share the same call letters with other AM's that are located and owned by different parties in different cities sometimes don't differentiate the calls. So...an FM which shares the same calls might not add the -FM suffix when it ID's. (WXXX-FM might ID as just WXXX, even though there's another AM station with the WXXX calls). And then there's the -TV suffix, which sometimes doesn't get ID'd by TV stations which share the same calls with other AMs and FMs elsewhere.


_______________________
What If...
Radio Didn't Exist?
www.LifeWithoutRadio.com

 

[busyradioguy]

Given the trend of stations burying their calls in a stop set anyway, I guess they feel the suffix stuff is trivial...

 

[CatFM]

I've never understood why the FCC didn't automatically drop the "-FM" suffix off of stations when a co-owned AM in the same area dropped the calls (those stations still have access to the calls, anyhow). There are hundreds of FM's which have the "-FM" suffix without a corresponding AM with the same calls. There are three different scenarios/problems which can result:

-The FM that still has the -FM suffix ends up ID'ing without it anyhow. One example I can think of is WBAM-FM in Montgomery, which still retains the -FM suffix, even though their AM hasn't used those calls in probably 20 years or more. I've heard WBAM-FM ID many times as just "WBAM".

-Some FM's which don't have the -FM suffix add it on during their ID, anyhow. For instance, WMXS in Montgomery. They don't have the -FM suffix but always ID as WMXS-FM, implying there's a WMXS(AM), which there isn't and never has been, at least in Montgomery.

-FM stations which share the same call letters with other AM's that are located and owned by different parties in different cities sometimes don't differentiate the calls. So...an FM which shares the same calls might not add the -FM suffix when it ID's. (WXXX-FM might ID as just WXXX, even though there's another AM station with the WXXX calls). And then there's the -TV suffix, which sometimes doesn't get ID'd by TV stations which share the same calls with other AMs and FMs elsewhere.

If an FM is licensed as WXXX-FM, the legal ID must be WXXX-FM. It won't do to just use WXXX. Whether or not the AM and FM stations with the same call are in the same or different cities doesn't matter.

As far as I know, there is no problem with identifying WXXX(FM) as WXXX-FM is the licensee wishes to do so, but it isn't necessary except in simulcasting...see below. TV stations can also add the -TV, but there is no need for it.

I have seen a number of instances where stations fail to properly ID during simulcast operation, but the Rules & Regs are very specific about how it has to be done. If the stations have the same call, such as WXXX and WXXX-FM, the ID must reflect that both signals are being identified. Simply IDing as WXXX and the city of license won't do because technically only the AM is being IDed in that situation. The proper ID would have to be some variation of WXXX and WXXX-FM, or it would work to say WXXX AM-FM or WXXX AM & FM.

When simulcasting with stations having different call signs, if the AM is WXXX and the FM is WZZZ(FM) (which would normally be identified as just WZZZ and the city of license) the legal ID for simulcast operation would have to be WXXX and WZZZ-FM plus the city of license because the FM must be clearly identified as being the FM signal during simulcast operation.

Also, it is possible to have a WXXX(FM) with a co-owned and co-located WXXX-TV as long as there is no AM with the same call.

 

[TomT]

Originally there was a WRRR in Rockford, Illinois. When my FM signed on, WRRR was something else, and the call was available--but it was issued to us as WRRR-FM. Then a few years later, the AM station in Illinois--some 600+ miles away from us, asked if they could go back to WRRR (which we agreed to do) and they used that call again for several years, before changing yet again.

 

[w9wi]

Subject says it all... what's the difference between WXYZ-FM and WXYZ(FM)?

Three characters on the license?

Seriously, some FM stations have the -FM suffix on their license, some don't. Take a look at http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?state=&call=&city=Milwaukee&arn=&serv=&vac=&freq=0.0&fre2=107.9&facid=&class=&dkt=&list=1&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&NS=N&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&EW=W&size=9 . You'll find 13 FM stations licensed to Milwaukee. Five of them have the -FM suffixes on their licensed callsigns, the other eight don't. Of the five that do have the -FM suffix, only one (WVCY) has an AM station with the same "base call". (there is also a WVCY-TV)

Four rules:
- There is no suffix for AM stations. NO AM station has a -AM suffix on its legal callsign.
- There can be only one station with a given set of four letters and no suffix.
- All low-power stations get a suffix regardless of whether the same set of four letters are used anywhere else. (except for low-power stations with number-letter calls)
- A station can voluntarily request a suffix even if it doesn't need one.

If there's a WVCY (AM), then an FM station could be WVCY-FM but it couldn't be just WVCY. Nor could a TV station be just WVCY; it would have to be WVCY-TV.

This can potentially work among FM and TV stations too - if there's a WHAD (FM) there could be a WHAD-TV but a TV station couldn't just be WHAD. If there's a WMVS (TV) there could be a WMVS-FM but an FM station couldn't be just WMVS. But again, there cannot be a WMVS-AM. If the TV station acquired an AM station they could change the TV to WMVS-TV and then put WMVS on the AM station - or they could put some other calls on the AM station and leave the TV alone.

Looking at the Milwaukee list it looks like WKTI, WRIT, WMYX, and WLUM all volunteered for a suffix even though they didn't need one. This is not unusual.

On the other hand, if you don't have the suffix you can prevent any AM station from picking up the same four letters. (they probably wouldn't try in your same market but they might somewhere else)

A low-power FM or TV station (or a Class A TV station) gets a suffix whether the same four letters are in use elsewhere or not. Channel 24 in Nashville is WJDE-LP, whether there's a WJDE (AM) or WJDE (FM) or WJDE (TV, full power) or not. The exceptions are number-letter calls like W24AC and W271AB which have no suffix. (exception to the exception: except that digital number-letter stations do get -D suffixes, like W24AC-D.)

Confusing enough?

_________________________________________________

As far as I know, there is no problem with identifying WXXX(FM) as WXXX-FM is the licensee wishes to do so, but it isn't necessary except in simulcasting...see below. TV stations can also add the -TV, but there is no need for it.

Certainly legal if you say the city of license first. ("Montgomery's WMXS-FM". The -FM is not part of their call letters, but they can say anything they want after the legal ID - including "-FM") - so this should be OK.

Otherwise, since WMXS-FM is not the station's legal callsign, "WMXS-FM Montgomery" shouldn't be legal. Except that it's legal to insert the station's channel or frequency between the city and the callsign. It doesn't say how specific you have to be. I suppose you could make the argument WMXS's frequency is "FM"....

_________________________________________________

I've never understood why the FCC didn't automatically drop the "-FM" suffix off of stations when a co-owned AM in the same area dropped the calls

Expensive, and probably a clerical problem. They'd be reissuing licenses all the time - and some licensees would find it necessary to re-record all their legal IDs.

 

[RolfTaylor]

Here is a slightly different version...

My alma mater into radio, WRUW-FM was licensed in 1967 as a 10 watt education exempt FM. licensed to Western Reserve University (later to become Case Western Reserve University).

Back then it was highly unusual to request vanity call letter, but one way or the other the station adviser and founder, John Cramer requested WRUW.

WRUW had been a call sign (I don't recall if it had been AM or FM), but was no longer in use.

For whatever reason, the FCC assigned the call sign WRUW-FM.

Note that WRUW-FM is the actual call sign and the full thing must be used for station ID purposes.

For more on WRUW-FM see:

www.wruw.org

 

[amfmsw]

Ahh, and just for added confusion, don't forget the 5 letter calls.

The FCC set precedent with the application of AM WRC Washington when they first out their television station on the air in 1950ish. The wanted the WRC calls, but three letter calls were no longer being assigned. The ststion suggested with the necessary suffix, WRC-TV was a five letter call, and therefore not covered under the reg. They got it, allowing WOR, KYW and others to associate their AM's heitage and goodwil with their new enterprise.

AM's have no suffix as they are still, to this day, regarded as "Standard Broadcast" stations.

 

[575]

The next part of the question is this:

If I'm WXYZ-FM and I have an HD-1 simulcast, can I Legal-ID as "WXYZ FM and HD-1, City Of License," like I would if it was and AM/FM simulcast (WXYZ AM & FM, City Of License)?

Or do I have to say "WXYZ-FM City Of License and WXYZ-HD-1, City Of License?"

 

[CatFM]

I checked the FCC R&R a couple of weeks ago out of curiosity to see if there have been any additions or changes made regarding HD, but I didn't find anything. I have heard a couple stations using new IDs such as "WXYZ, Mootown, and WXYZ-HD, Mootown, but I have a feeling that is nothing more than "bragging rights" and self-promotion since I couldn't find anything in the R&R about having to use a specific ID for digital operation.

 

[w9wi]

I checked the FCC R&R a couple of weeks ago out of curiosity to see if there have been any additions or changes made regarding HD, but I didn't find anything. I have heard a couple stations using new IDs such as "WXYZ, Mootown, and WXYZ-HD, Mootown, but I have a feeling that is nothing more than "bragging rights" and self-promotion since I couldn't find anything in the R&R about having to use a specific ID for digital operation.

There have been changes made. When they "permanentized" the rules for HD Radio, they added a requirement that digital subchannels (both FM and TV, as I read it) identify themselves as such. They weren't very specific about how you have to do it but I do think "WXYZ-HD, Mootown" would qualify.

I would suggest if you take the rules literally, you must ID an AM/FM pair as "WXYZ Mootown and WXYZ-FM Mootown"; "WXYZ AM & FM Mootown" is technically illegal. But stations have been doing it that way for as long as there's been FM, the FCC certainly knows about it, and they obviously don't think it's a problem.

 

[CatFM]

The FCC has always been inconsistent about enforcing some rules, especially regarding station identification. A local station in a small town where I was living a while back was not doing proper legal IDs. They have an AM daytimer and an FM that are always in full simulcast. Their standard ID during the day when both stations are on is just "WXYZ Mootown." I tried to point out to them that only their AM station is being identified when they do that because their FM is actually WXYZ-FM and it also must be identified. After AM sign off, they do a legal ID for the FM by using "WXYZ-FM Mootown," so at least part of their broadcast day has legal ID. Oddly enough, I was unable to explain to their satisfaction that during simulcast operation, they are operating two transmitters under separate licenses, and each has to be identified. As far as I know, they are still doing their IDs the same way. They claim the FCC visited there while they were doing their IDs that way and the nothing was said about it, so they figure it is legal, even though the R&R proves that it is not. Oh well...

 

[PTBoardOp94]

One place I worked recently had calls WQQQ, but the ID inserted the frequency so it sounded like this:
You're listening to WQQQ, FM 105.5 Detroit.

Acceptable frequency insertion, I think. Others may disagree, though.

 

[busyradioguy]

One place I worked recently had calls WQQQ, but the ID inserted the frequency so it sounded like this:
You're listening to WQQQ, FM 105.5 Detroit.

Acceptable frequency insertion, I think. Others may disagree, though.

I'm not sure that's legal. The rule is call letters followed by city of license.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

(b) Content. (1) Official station identification shall consist of
the station's call letters immediately followed by the community or
communities specified in its license as the station's location;
Provided, That the name of the licensee, the station's frequency, the
station's channel number, as stated on the station's license, and/or the
station's network affiliation may be inserted between the call letters
and station location.

That's the rule

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