I can't believe that a huge 50kw station in SF woulkd sink to lows of airing glenn beck twice in one day and infomercials in key dayparts. What are they thinking?
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What's up in KTRB-land?
- Thread starter newhampshiredude
- Start date
I agree. The Talk format wasn't as successful as Pappas was probably hoping. They seem to have been banking on the popularity of 2 former Bay Area Talkers (Mancow Mueller and John London). Now the former airs in the very early hours while the latter just disappeared. And by sheer coincidence, its Modesto Sister Station, KMPH-840 has yet to show up in the ratings there in either Modesto or Stockton, but I think that what KTRB should do is to simply simulcast KMPH's Adult Standards format as I think that would do better in the ratings by being the only Adult Standards station in the Bay Area rather than be 1 in about 5 or so Talkers there. Just My 2 cents!newhampshiredude said:
newhampshiredude said:
KTRB is not the only 50kw station with infomercials. Remember KFAX 1100? And they have a far better Bay Area signal and a 46 year head start on KTRB, too. (As far as I'm concerned, brokered Jesuscasting is the same as infomercials; they're just selling Jesus instead of timeshares or patent medicines.)
KTRB should gain by having a great dial position next to KGO, but it suffers from having one of the worst signals in the Bay Area, or in most of the Bay Area anyway. I know that they put a great signal into Sunol, and it's a great gopher warmer along the Pleasanton hillsides, too. But I find it unlistenable in SF.
Madmansam said:
I think you're onto something. Gordon McLendon made KABL #1 with a beautiful music format in 1959 when the Bay Area was saturated with rockers and top 40 stations.
And KDFC's rise toward the top with a classical format is not because people are suddenly interested in symphonies and chamber music. It's because the same ratings pie is no longer divided between KDFC and KKHI. In fact, the KDFC share is a little less than the sum of the old KDFC and KKHI.
But the big question is how desirable is an adult standards audience to advertisers?
A
AngieC
Guest
And they can tap some of the talent that did so well on Magic 61. It would be so great to hear Carter B. back on the air. And Buddy Hatton - anybody know where he is now?
I'd actually consider a return to traffic reporting to share the airwaves with those guys again. Welllll ... almost.
I'd actually consider a return to traffic reporting to share the airwaves with those guys again. Welllll ... almost.
radio dx said:
Okay, you think that audience has money. Let's say you're selling ads for such a station. Who would you approach? Bear in mind that older people usually have strong mindsets about what they want to buy and who they want to buy it from. They also have learned a lot of skepticism from a life of being deluded by advertising. Who would you approach to reach such an audience?
I never tried to listen to KTRB in the City, but I can tell you that since they lit that blowtorch on that Sunol hilltop, KTRB steps all over KGO if you have a cheap AM radio, or if you have one with good selectivity then at the very least it causes background interference. I live in the tri-valley area (Pleasanton/Livermore) where it is most problematic, but outside this area it is not a problem. I almost considered sending the FCC a letter about it, but I don't like to complain too much.
So with 50Kw, WHO is their target audience, or maybe the better question is WHERE? If you can't pick them up in the City, are they just trying to throw their signal into the central valley?
I have nothing personally against KTRB, I just wish their frequency wasn't so close to 810.
D
DeadAudicy
Guest
Cruise Lines, Pharmaceuticals, Term Life Insurance, High End Auto, Retirement Destinations, Retirement Financials, Resort Living, Upscale Communities, Dining, Home Improvement, Senior Investments, Drug and Retail Mega Stores, Legal Services, Upscale Furniture, Real Estate, Seminars, Home Shows, RVs, Home Entertainment, Upscale Jewelry, Hobby, TV Shows, Magazines, Funeral, can I just say etc?
Do yourself a favor, follow and old person for a day. It's a growing demo with big disposable time and income, still relying primarily on the medium, and are the last demo literally trained to respond to the medium, which trumps the routine purchase stereotype.
H
Hunter
Guest
If it's the central valley they are interested in, they would have never moved. KTRB was licensed to Modesto with a great valley signal until Harry moved it last year.EastBay said:
EastBay said:
No, they clearly aim their towers to saturate the Bay Area. It's one of those theoretical patterns that doesn't play out in reality.
It's one thing for an AM to be on the bay, as are KGO, KNBR, KFAX, KCBS, KYCY, KEAR (former KFRC), KVTO, KEST, KSFO, KNEW, KMKY (former KDIA 1310), KKGN (former KQKE), KTCT, KIQI, and KDIA 1640's daytime transmitter -- they're ALL on or within a few hundred yards of the bay. And that's fine. They all have great ground conductivity.
But get away from the bay and you're sitting on rock with very low ground conductivity. And what's more, where did they put KTRB? They put it on the other side of a mountain range from the city they're supposed to be serving! Sunol Ridge, Pleasanton Ridge, and Mission Peak are directly between KTRB and SF.
"But the big question is how desirable is an adult standards audience to advertisers?"
The answer, unfortunately, as has been proven is -- it is not a desirable format to sell to an audience of that age.
The perception of disposable income and the products to move them is that ... a false perception. It takes, believe it or not, more advertising to truly "reach" that demo 45+ or, especially, 55+ than any other format. It also is proven that to break the habits of product purchase loyalty, an advertiser needs more "frequency" to reach this audience that doesn't come about merely because TSL's in this demo are traditionally longer. Hence, the reason why radio advertising "works" ... reach and frequency.
Further, the Standards format is a difficult demo based on a cost-per-point (CPP) which advertisers look to. The reason? Families are fewer in those demos than the 4 or more household members in a dynamic wider age group attractive to advertisers (usually, 12-44 or less.) It costs less to reach more of that demo than it does the "empty nesters" who have done their major purchases in life and have been creatures of habit for a long time (just as the upcoming generation will be.)
So why does a KGO do so well in numbers (and a wider demo) than an Adult Standards station? Because ratings wise with todays demographic and culture, talk is such an "interactive" and "participatory" format ... where Adult Standards is not ... and its focus is on "what's old" and not "what's now." Yes, there is a trend of "new" standards artists who are commercially successful ... and the fans are there, as well ... but the advertisers just aren't because of the difficulty of making a return on their investment which is a lot more than it is in reaching the desired target demo ... even in buys crossing different stations and different formats.
What "used" to work ... isn't working anymore. A lot of the old KGO, KSFO, KABL audience had died off in the last 30 to 40 years ... replaced by "FM" listeners who are now giving way to those who never have known what an "AM" radio was.
The main business is, of course, making business work. A niche format, as much as I like it, on a 50kw blowtorch will not recoup its investment in a lifetime because of the lack of interest ... in "sellable" rating points ... and in the all important "how much does it cost me to reach that audience to get them to spend on my product?" demo.
Finally, in this economy ... you can forget it. Fewer businesses are "taking chances" on advertising it can't guarantee results. With a recession (despite the fact that radio should remain strong, but the fact also shows that consumers cut back on spending) makes it a difficult "Catch-22."
Radio is having enough difficulties with the economy right now and business, in general, has caught the "fever" ... and goes where the best possible return on investment is waiting. It's a format of loyalty in listening, but not in freer spending as in other formats.
Incidentally, I sell the format every day and am well aware of what is competitively happening against 26 other signals in my market. It's hard to keep your head above water today ...
The answer, unfortunately, as has been proven is -- it is not a desirable format to sell to an audience of that age.
The perception of disposable income and the products to move them is that ... a false perception. It takes, believe it or not, more advertising to truly "reach" that demo 45+ or, especially, 55+ than any other format. It also is proven that to break the habits of product purchase loyalty, an advertiser needs more "frequency" to reach this audience that doesn't come about merely because TSL's in this demo are traditionally longer. Hence, the reason why radio advertising "works" ... reach and frequency.
Further, the Standards format is a difficult demo based on a cost-per-point (CPP) which advertisers look to. The reason? Families are fewer in those demos than the 4 or more household members in a dynamic wider age group attractive to advertisers (usually, 12-44 or less.) It costs less to reach more of that demo than it does the "empty nesters" who have done their major purchases in life and have been creatures of habit for a long time (just as the upcoming generation will be.)
So why does a KGO do so well in numbers (and a wider demo) than an Adult Standards station? Because ratings wise with todays demographic and culture, talk is such an "interactive" and "participatory" format ... where Adult Standards is not ... and its focus is on "what's old" and not "what's now." Yes, there is a trend of "new" standards artists who are commercially successful ... and the fans are there, as well ... but the advertisers just aren't because of the difficulty of making a return on their investment which is a lot more than it is in reaching the desired target demo ... even in buys crossing different stations and different formats.
What "used" to work ... isn't working anymore. A lot of the old KGO, KSFO, KABL audience had died off in the last 30 to 40 years ... replaced by "FM" listeners who are now giving way to those who never have known what an "AM" radio was.
The main business is, of course, making business work. A niche format, as much as I like it, on a 50kw blowtorch will not recoup its investment in a lifetime because of the lack of interest ... in "sellable" rating points ... and in the all important "how much does it cost me to reach that audience to get them to spend on my product?" demo.
Finally, in this economy ... you can forget it. Fewer businesses are "taking chances" on advertising it can't guarantee results. With a recession (despite the fact that radio should remain strong, but the fact also shows that consumers cut back on spending) makes it a difficult "Catch-22."
Radio is having enough difficulties with the economy right now and business, in general, has caught the "fever" ... and goes where the best possible return on investment is waiting. It's a format of loyalty in listening, but not in freer spending as in other formats.
Incidentally, I sell the format every day and am well aware of what is competitively happening against 26 other signals in my market. It's hard to keep your head above water today ...
D
DeadAudicy
Guest
Oak, you sell a Standards format in the Bay Area? I would so be a loyal listener.
Anyway, while I'm not necessarily advocating a leap to Standards, 55+ is far from served in the market, is growing, is more radio friendly than younger demos, is cash positive, and responds well to advertising appropriate to the demo. The product/service examples I listed are a fraction of industries serving the demo, with not a lot of choices for reaching it. In terms of product loyalty and habit purchases, go down the list and count those that the new empty nester or newly retired would be habituated to. Sure, they might have some favorite local action, restaurants or rug stores or roofing contractors...but everything from estate planning and trusts to new pharms are wide open territory, with generous marketing dollars, many completely uninterested in the more "desired" younger demo (even if they were listening).
The "4 or more household" uses radio considerably less and completely differently today than just 5 years ago, with the younger portion of the household increasingly absent from the tally, and the models are changing. On the retirement end, for every fan that has "died off" 10 are entering the demo and are substantially better funded than any previous generation. They're in the car, in the shop, even at the computer with the radio on. They're not all into the grumpy bickering of talk radio all the time, and they like a little music.
Now go out and SELL, dammit.
Anyway, while I'm not necessarily advocating a leap to Standards, 55+ is far from served in the market, is growing, is more radio friendly than younger demos, is cash positive, and responds well to advertising appropriate to the demo. The product/service examples I listed are a fraction of industries serving the demo, with not a lot of choices for reaching it. In terms of product loyalty and habit purchases, go down the list and count those that the new empty nester or newly retired would be habituated to. Sure, they might have some favorite local action, restaurants or rug stores or roofing contractors...but everything from estate planning and trusts to new pharms are wide open territory, with generous marketing dollars, many completely uninterested in the more "desired" younger demo (even if they were listening).
The "4 or more household" uses radio considerably less and completely differently today than just 5 years ago, with the younger portion of the household increasingly absent from the tally, and the models are changing. On the retirement end, for every fan that has "died off" 10 are entering the demo and are substantially better funded than any previous generation. They're in the car, in the shop, even at the computer with the radio on. They're not all into the grumpy bickering of talk radio all the time, and they like a little music.
Now go out and SELL, dammit.
oaktree said:
It's also quite amazing what 10 years can do to a format and to a medium. Back in 1998, KABL 960 was doing an adult standards format with a big band swing kind of edge to it. Besides the older folks it attracted a ton of people in their 20s and 30s. In fact, KABL held a party in SF's Union Square and brought in a popular local band, Lee Press-On & The Nails, featuring vocalist Leslie Presley. This was a 13-piece band with musicians in their 20s and early 30s. And the audience in the Square also skewed way younger than anybody at KABL imagined it would. Mike Cleary said he was atonished that day at the reach KABL had.
But that was 1998.
Today, people in their 20s and 30s still dance to old music. Witness such local bands as Emily Anne & Her Hot Nuts, the Frisky Frolics, Devine's Jug Band, JimBo Trout & The Fish People, Jeanie & Chuck's Country Roundup, Joyfull Noise, and the list goes on and on. BUT, people in their 20s and 30s are getting their music live and via MP3s, MySpace, Internet audio services, etc. And adult standards station today might reach them, but it would probably have to be on FM.
Classes at the Metronome Ballroom are full. Younger people like the old music, but it has to be in a technology that reaches them.
Great post, D.A.
I'm sellin' right this minute.
Maybe Harry's figured out a way to pay for that 50kw transmitter and those towers with reverse mortgage ads, but I have a feeling he knows it won't be a profitable time in trying with that demo. Loyal? Yes. Habitual? They are. Big enough? Not as much as advertisers want and need, unfortunately.
Times have changed. People in that demo don't want to be reminded that their favorite entertainers are mostly dead and gone ... and that Glen Miller was 60 years ago ... meaning that they're in the 70s to 80s of their golden years. That's a tough buy... But, someone will keep tryin'...
I'm sellin' right this minute.
Maybe Harry's figured out a way to pay for that 50kw transmitter and those towers with reverse mortgage ads, but I have a feeling he knows it won't be a profitable time in trying with that demo. Loyal? Yes. Habitual? They are. Big enough? Not as much as advertisers want and need, unfortunately.
Times have changed. People in that demo don't want to be reminded that their favorite entertainers are mostly dead and gone ... and that Glen Miller was 60 years ago ... meaning that they're in the 70s to 80s of their golden years. That's a tough buy... But, someone will keep tryin'...
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