Whats with the drop in AARs ratings?

[k9ez]

AAR has dropped in New York, big time in San Diego, holding with a very small rating in Boston and Chicago. I would be most interested in what is going to happen with AARs real flagship in Portland. WSAI in Cincy has not been holding the numbers either. Yes, yes, these are 12+ numbers.....

Between that and the loss of some markets (Phoenix, talk of Atlanta) perhaps it is time for another liberal group to step to the plate?

Please no political ramblings here, I am talking about BUSINESS.

THANK YOU

 

[Barancas]

Not So Fast There

> Between that and the loss of some markets (Phoenix, talk of
> Atlanta) perhaps it is time for another liberal group to
> step to the plate?


I saw that Phoenix was about to re-launch AAR on a new stick; as for Atlanta, they're too busy re-fighting the Civil War to care about today's politics anyway.

 

[RBA]

> AAR has dropped in New York, big time in San Diego, holding
> with a very small rating in Boston and Chicago. I would be
> most interested in what is going to happen with AARs real
> flagship in Portland. WSAI in Cincy has not been holding
> the numbers either. Yes, yes, these are 12+ numbers.....
>
> Between that and the loss of some markets (Phoenix, talk of
> Atlanta) perhaps it is time for another liberal group to
> step to the plate?
>
> Please no political ramblings here, I am talking about
> BUSINESS.
>
> THANK YOU
>

Phx is back on April 3rd. You must know little about political talk radio. Ratings go up and down on political news events and election cycles. Ratings will start to improve as mid term elections start getting closer. Please try using some common sense next time.


edit: no means Know. <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by RBA on 03/29/06 12:36 AM.</FONT></P>

 

[nwebster]

These are Trends nunbers - which tend to be somewhat volatile. Wait for the full Winter book next month. Even so, all we see online are 12+ Average Quarter Hour Share "beauty contest" numbers. Arbitron gives them away because they are worthless to broadcasters and advertisers. Also don't believe any press releases ANY broadcasters put out about how they won demo x in daypart y. These people maybe didn't read "How to Lie with Statistics" - but they could have written it.

If you want to talk business, we should be talking about sales revenue - the only numbers that matter. Unfortunately, those numbers are harder to come by.

The only station AAR operates is WLIB, New York. Portland's KPOJ is owned by Clear Channel. Thom Hartmann's show is distributed from there but not by any stretch can it claim to be AAR's "flagship" (maybe Hartmann's flagship - although his syndicated program is not heard locally except for weekend "best of" segments).

No, it's not "time for another liberal group to step up to the plate." Absolutely, positively NOT! It's time for somebody who knows how to manage and program a radio operation to step up to the plate.

 

[ajhenderson]

> Phx is back on April 3rd. You must no little about
> political talk radio. Ratings go up and down on political
> news events and election cycles. Ratings will start to
> improve as mid term elections start getting closer. Please
> try using some common sense next time.

Well, that's true, and AAR is returning to Phoenix (minus the business sense that brought it in the first place), but if we're talking about volatility, going from a 5.5 to a 4.0 is a lot better than going from a 1.0 to a 0.5.

 

[ClarkKent]

Re: Not So Fast There

>
> I saw that Phoenix was about to re-launch AAR on a new
> stick; as for Atlanta, they're too busy re-fighting the
> Civil War to care about today's politics anyway.
>

Living in the Atlanta area, this is interesting to me. Frankly, I don't see any regiments of either blue or grey marching down the road. No cannons booming in the distance. Not even any rhetoric that smacks of anything "Civil War" era.

And Democrats wonder why they have little traction in the South. Besides, what did that comment have to do with radio?

 

[Shadow]

Re: Not So Fast There

> >
> > I saw that Phoenix was about to re-launch AAR on a new
> > stick; as for Atlanta, they're too busy re-fighting the
> > Civil War to care about today's politics anyway.
> >
>
> Living in the Atlanta area, this is interesting to me.
> Frankly, I don't see any regiments of either blue or grey
> marching down the road. No cannons booming in the distance.
> Not even any rhetoric that smacks of anything "Civil War"
> era.
>
> And Democrats wonder why they have little traction in the
> South. Besides, what did that comment have to do with radio?
>
In defense of sensible Democrats (which I am one) I think Atlanta is a great city. Besides really hating the traffic I cannot think of anything I don't like about the city. It is a very progressive town. Granted the deep south has some interesting backwards cities, but that can be said about the north. Ever been to Steubenville, Ohio?

This topic is dumb. We are discussing 12+ trends here? The author of the post refers to "flat" ratings in Boston and Chicago. If you know anything about either market you know both have HORRIBLE sticks. The simulcast in Boston barely covers the market. January is the earliest the stations power down and the latest they power up. They have nearly no night signal which is from (forgive if I forget the exact times) about 5PM to 7AM. They drop to almost no power for half of PM drive, evenings, overnights and half of AM drive. Gee that is great for listeners.

As for WCPT in Chicago forget about it. They are a daytime only station that is located almost half way between Chicago and Madison, WI. Go to Radio-Locator.com and check out their day pattern. They barely even get to downtown Chicago. Of course they have no numbers. Stick Randi Rhodes or Ed Schultz on a stick like WGN and see what they do.

As for "being down" in the trends in San Diego and New York they were up in LA, San Francisco, Seattle and Portland. When you are on sixty stations you can figure that probability says that half will go up in a survey and half will go down. We could make the same argument about the Salem talk stations. They pretty much all suck in the ratings but they are many times on bad AM signals with little to no marketing. Again, put Dennis Prager on a WGN and he would probably do fine.

These ridiculous discussions of poli-talk stations are the most circular dialogue ever. It's a game of he-said she-said. Can't we at least debate reality rather then emotion?

 

[k9ez]

> > AAR has dropped in New York, big time in San Diego,
> holding
> > with a very small rating in Boston and Chicago. I would
> be
> > most interested in what is going to happen with AARs real
> > flagship in Portland. WSAI in Cincy has not been holding
> > the numbers either. Yes, yes, these are 12+ numbers.....
> >
> > Between that and the loss of some markets (Phoenix, talk
> of
> > Atlanta) perhaps it is time for another liberal group to
> > step to the plate?
> >
> > Please no political ramblings here, I am talking about
> > BUSINESS.
> >
> > THANK YOU
> >
>
> Phx is back on April 3rd. You must know little about
> political talk radio. Ratings go up and down on political
> news events and election cycles. Ratings will start to
> improve as mid term elections start getting closer. Please
> try using some common sense next time.
>
>
> edit: no means Know.
>


You know, I TRIED to have what I thought was going to be a decent discussion. But instead I get people still hitting politics, and ripping on each other.

OK Mr Common sense why would you then explain why WABC and WLS are up then?

You folks here are really sick. We cannot have a decent conversation with out you idiots going into drivel. Now tell me, who is using common sense???

 

[k9ez]

Re: Not So Fast There

> > >
> > > I saw that Phoenix was about to re-launch AAR on a new
> > > stick; as for Atlanta, they're too busy re-fighting the
> > > Civil War to care about today's politics anyway.
> > >
> >
> > Living in the Atlanta area, this is interesting to me.
> > Frankly, I don't see any regiments of either blue or grey
> > marching down the road. No cannons booming in the
> distance.
> > Not even any rhetoric that smacks of anything "Civil War"
> > era.
> >
> > And Democrats wonder why they have little traction in the
> > South. Besides, what did that comment have to do with
> radio?
> >
> In defense of sensible Democrats (which I am one) I think
> Atlanta is a great city. Besides really hating the traffic I
> cannot think of anything I don't like about the city. It is
> a very progressive town. Granted the deep south has some
> interesting backwards cities, but that can be said about the
> north. Ever been to Steubenville, Ohio?
>
> This topic is dumb. We are discussing 12+ trends here? The
> author of the post refers to "flat" ratings in Boston and
> Chicago. If you know anything about either market you know
> both have HORRIBLE sticks. The simulcast in Boston barely
> covers the market. January is the earliest the stations
> power down and the latest they power up. They have nearly no
> night signal which is from (forgive if I forget the exact
> times) about 5PM to 7AM. They drop to almost no power for
> half of PM drive, evenings, overnights and half of AM drive.
> Gee that is great for listeners.
>

This topic is dumb, but yet you chime in???


> As for WCPT in Chicago forget about it. They are a daytime
> only station that is located almost half way between Chicago
> and Madison, WI. Go to Radio-Locator.com and check out their
> day pattern. They barely even get to downtown Chicago. Of
> course they have no numbers. Stick Randi Rhodes or Ed
> Schultz on a stick like WGN and see what they do.
>

WCPT (and this has been covered quite a few times) puts out 10,000 erp right downtown Chicago. Obviously you havent been there. It covers real nicely thank you and has PSSA so they go later than sunset. WCPT will stop the scan on most radios near downtown. Been there tested it.



> As for "being down" in the trends in San Diego and New York
> they were up in LA, San Francisco, Seattle and Portland.
> When you are on sixty stations you can figure that
> probability says that half will go up in a survey and half
> will go down. We could make the same argument about the
> Salem talk stations. They pretty much all suck in the
> ratings but they are many times on bad AM signals with
> little to no marketing. Again, put Dennis Prager on a WGN
> and he would probably do fine.
>
> These ridiculous discussions of poli-talk stations are the
> most circular dialogue ever. It's a game of he-said
> she-said. Can't we at least debate reality rather then
> emotion?
>


How did I bring emotion into this?? I asked for a business discussion.
If you want a decent stick what about WSAI?

 

[RBA]

> > > AAR has dropped in New York, big time in San Diego,
> > holding
> > > with a very small rating in Boston and Chicago. I would
>
> > be
> > > most interested in what is going to happen with AARs
> real
> > > flagship in Portland. WSAI in Cincy has not been
> holding
> > > the numbers either. Yes, yes, these are 12+
> numbers.....
> > >
> > > Between that and the loss of some markets (Phoenix, talk
>
> > of
> > > Atlanta) perhaps it is time for another liberal group to
>
> > > step to the plate?
> > >
> > > Please no political ramblings here, I am talking about
> > > BUSINESS.
> > >
> > > THANK YOU
> > >
> >
> > Phx is back on April 3rd. You must know little about
> > political talk radio. Ratings go up and down on political
>
> > news events and election cycles. Ratings will start to
> > improve as mid term elections start getting closer.
> Please
> > try using some common sense next time.
> >
> >
> > edit: no means Know.
> >
>
>
> You know, I TRIED to have what I thought was going to be a
> decent discussion. But instead I get people still hitting
> politics, and ripping on each other.
>
> OK Mr Common sense why would you then explain why WABC and
> WLS are up then?
>
> You folks here are really sick. We cannot have a decent
> conversation with out you idiots going into drivel. Now
> tell me, who is using common sense???
>
Sick? You want answers to questions that anyone without the real money numbers can't answer. I think Shadow did a pretty decent job giving you answers below.

Thanks

 

[OldAkronite]

WCPT/Chicago's Signal

> WCPT (and this has been covered quite a few times) puts out
> 10,000 erp right downtown Chicago. Obviously you havent
> been there. It covers real nicely thank you and has PSSA so
> they go later than sunset. WCPT will stop the scan on most
> radios near downtown. Been there tested it.

It's not a *great* signal, particularly in areas not favored by its directional pattern. It does OK near downtown, and better out to the north/northwest. But it's not really a full-market signal, particularly south of the Loop. If you're on the 80/94 tollway south of town heading into Indiana, it's a staticky mess.

It certainly doesn't enjoy the signal advantages of a WCKY/1530 in Cincinnati, or often-cited powerful low-band station KPOJ/620 Portland.

But 850/Chicago has shown up in 12-plus ratings even before this format - they were getting some decent probably-well-loaded-by-older-listeners numbers as a standards station, as I recall.

-OA<P ID="signature">______________
Ohio Media Watch - <a target="_blank" href=http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com>http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com</a></P>

 

[ibezdechi]

Hon, the only reason AA will be back in PHX on April 3rd is that they are going to be brokered and subsidzied by the listeners!

> Phx is back on April 3rd. You must know little about
> political talk radio. Ratings go up and down on political
> news events and election cycles. Ratings will start to
> improve as mid term elections start getting closer. Please
> try using some common sense next time.
>
>
> edit: no means Know.
>

 

[nwebster]

Mountains and molehills

I won't say you asked a dumb question (that's already been posted) but you did ask a question loaded with assumptions, not completely accurate and showing a lack of understanding of how the radio business works. (I like to provoke a response, too. Just don't complain when you get one.)

The fact is the only Trends market posted so far this cycle showing a drop that MIGHT have any SIGNIFICANCE is San Diego. But it's only 2nd phase Trends and it's not worth talking about until the full book comes out.

The other issue here is Arbitron's dirty little secret: The diary method is ripe for respondent error (deliberate or not) in recording diary information. If you see a change in station numbers without an apparent reason, most likely it's about how people enter data in their diaries. (Now I know I will get flack on what follows Progressive talk has a core of very loyal listeners. Some may have inflated the amount of time they listen. Others may support the IDEA of progressive talk but not listen that much or at all. They may say in their diaries they listen when they don't. This is not unique to progressive talk or people who support or listen to progressive talk. It has happened with various stations and programming which have a "cult" status for some listeners. People inflate their listening for several reasons: They think they are being supportive. They think reporting what they actually did does not reflect a greater truth (that week wasn't typical - I would have listened but ...). Some people lie on surveys for the hell of it. Such "inflation" tends to diminish over time. I'm not saying this happened; I'm saying it does happen. And people's listening behavior is a lot more stable than Arbitron numbers, which makes me generally suspicious of Arbitron numbers.

It will be interesting to see what happens to progressive talk and other "cult" formats with people meters. Unfortunately, the first markets in which PPM is being tested and rolled out don't have progressive talk radio.

 

[k9ez]

Re: WCPT/Chicago's Signal

> > WCPT (and this has been covered quite a few times) puts
> out
> > 10,000 erp right downtown Chicago. Obviously you havent
> > been there. It covers real nicely thank you and has PSSA
> so
> > they go later than sunset. WCPT will stop the scan on
> most
> > radios near downtown. Been there tested it.
>
> It's not a *great* signal, particularly in areas not favored
> by its directional pattern. It does OK near downtown, and
> better out to the north/northwest. But it's not really a
> full-market signal, particularly south of the Loop. If
> you're on the 80/94 tollway south of town heading into
> Indiana, it's a staticky mess.
>
> It certainly doesn't enjoy the signal advantages of a
> WCKY/1530 in Cincinnati, or often-cited powerful low-band
> station KPOJ/620 Portland.
>
> But 850/Chicago has shown up in 12-plus ratings even before
> this format - they were getting some decent
> probably-well-loaded-by-older-listeners numbers as a
> standards station, as I recall.
>
> -OA
>


Indeed they were doing fairly well with Adult Standards, so the signal does get out there.

I didnt mean to imply that 850 has the singal of a WSAI. But it is no graveyarder either.

 

[Shadow]

Re: Not So Fast There

> WCPT (and this has been covered quite a few times) puts out
> 10,000 erp right downtown Chicago. Obviously you havent
> been there. It covers real nicely thank you and has PSSA so
> they go later than sunset. WCPT will stop the scan on most
> radios near downtown. Been there tested it.

I work in Chicago. Tested it to. When I fly into Midway and rent my car you cannot listen to it. It fades in and out and most regular radio listeners will not tolerate that type of noise. Bottom line is it is a station that does not cover the metro. Sure they get some 12+ but they will never be a good barometer of the overall left-poli talk format. It wouldn't be a good barometer of any talk format.
>
>
>
> > As for "being down" in the trends in San Diego and New
> York
> > they were up in LA, San Francisco, Seattle and Portland.
> > When you are on sixty stations you can figure that
> > probability says that half will go up in a survey and half
>
> > will go down. We could make the same argument about the
> > Salem talk stations. They pretty much all suck in the
> > ratings but they are many times on bad AM signals with
> > little to no marketing. Again, put Dennis Prager on a WGN
> > and he would probably do fine.
> >
> > These ridiculous discussions of poli-talk stations are the
>
> > most circular dialogue ever. It's a game of he-said
> > she-said. Can't we at least debate reality rather then
> > emotion?
> >
>
>
> How did I bring emotion into this?? I asked for a business
> discussion.
> If you want a decent stick what about WSAI?

You mean WCKY 1530? They do have a good signal. But I thought we were talking about Boston and Chicago? Cincy is NOT a progressive town like Chicago or Boston. Hamilton County is very conservative. Of course 1530 will get listeners, but again it won't see anything like a WLW. The format is much too polarizing.

 

[OldAkronite]

Re: WCPT/Chicago's Signal

> Indeed they were doing fairly well with Adult Standards, so
> the signal does get out there.

It gets out enough to snare a niche audience willing to endure a little static in parts of the market, or one that's well-suited to its stronger signal area. The jury's out on how libtalk will fit in that equation. I don't know the Chicago market enough to know if likely libtalk listeners are within the WCPT stronger signal area.

> I didnt mean to imply that 850 has the singal of a WSAI.
> But it is no graveyarder either.

It's a second-tier signal for them...the biggest problem they have is that it's a daytimer. I know it has PSSA, but in the winter, that'd still clip off some drive-time, no?

And as WCKY (new WSAI/1530 calls) has shown, even a 50,000 watt blowtorch is not a guarantee of big ratings, in liberal talk or ANY format.

-OA<P ID="signature">______________
Ohio Media Watch - <a target="_blank" href=http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com>http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com</a></P>

 

[Gnarlodious]

I know I keep saying this, but some of the AAR talkers have no consistent appeal. They may attract a cult of dedicated callers who swoon on air, but I think the majority of mainstream "liberals" can't listen to Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy for any length of time. These are not typically informative talkers, but tend to overdo the angry and sarcastic theatrics.

Meanwhile, the Clear Channel stations that schedule in Thom Hartmann, Ed Schultz or Stephanie Miller do seem to have a better lineup. As many others have said here over several months, AAR seems to be an ego-driven management and as such their programming suffers.

Just my opinions, no need to rake me over the coals for these statements.<P ID="signature">______________
• K5ZN</P>

 

[dampier]

> I know I keep saying this, but some of the AAR talkers have
> no consistent appeal. They may attract a cult of dedicated
> callers who swoon on air, but I think the majority of
> mainstream "liberals" can't listen to Randi Rhodes and Mike
> Malloy for any length of time. These are not typically
> informative talkers, but tend to overdo the angry and
> sarcastic theatrics.

Randi Rhodes beat Sean Hannity in 25-54 listeners in NY and is doing quite well in a lot of markets so I guess I'll take the ratings over your word for it.

 

[dampier]

Welcome to the Spec-u-plex

> (Now I know I
> will get flack on what follows Progressive talk has a core
> of very loyal listeners. Some may have inflated the amount
> of time they listen. Others may support the IDEA of
> progressive talk but not listen that much or at all.

Oh PLEASE. This Krazy Konspiracy Theory is among the silliest I've ever seen in this forum. It assumes that liberals would cook the diary but conservatives who are rabid fans of right wing talk wouldn't? It also assumes that a large percentage of the diaries are being filled out by rabid liberals. You'd need a large concerted effort to make a significant impact on the ratings and there is absolutely ZERO evidence of this happening on either side.

Where is the evidence? Let's stay out of the Spec-U-Plex - this isn't a cable news chat show.

> It will be interesting to see what happens to progressive
> talk and other "cult" formats with people meters.
> Unfortunately, the first markets in which PPM is being
> tested and rolled out don't have progressive talk radio.

Yeah, progressive talk is a "cult" format while conservative talk must be totally mainstream. Pick up this forum - you've left your bias laying all over the place.

 

[nwebster]

Welcome to Broke Brain Mountain

You are out of touch with reality. Everything is political conspiracy to you. Here is what I wrote. Read it carefully and try to get it right this time:

This is not unique to progressive talk or people who support or listen to progressive talk.

Let me try to make this simple for you since research methodology apparently is one of those areas in which you are ignorant.

People Lie!

Please show where I said or implied that anybody conspired with anyone to do anything.

And since I have to operate at special ed level and underline everything for you: Yes, I am sure the same phenomenon happens with Salem and happened with Rush starting out (when he was a "cult" host). Feel better now?

Someday you will reply to what I actually wrote - not what you imagine I wrote, not what I wrote two weeks ago, not what Brian Maloney wrote - what I actually wrote and I will have a heart attack from the shock.

And now, let's play your game. Speaking of lies:
(I posted)
>> You don't read most blogs but you do read Brian Maloney (and
>> post comments).
(You replied)
> Actually I don't visit his site. People carry in his nonsense
> and post it here.

I imagine there is some Clintonesque evasion in there. But I would be curious to see how you post on his site without visiting it. I could envision you posting there without reading his blog - since that's what you appear to do here.
http://radioequalizer.blogspot.com/2005/08/monday-air-america-scandal-updates.html
http://radioequalizer.blogspot.com/2005/08/two-great-new-columns.html

You know, there really is a resemblance:

Brian Maloney

Phillip Dampier