Wheatstone Baseband Interface

[KeithErickson]

I understand from the people at KTWN that they were dissatisfied with the audio performance of the Wheatstone box, and went back to their Omnia 11, which is running MPX over AES.

Seems as though, as usual, this will all boil down to the preference of processor performance.

 

[Telosian]

"KeithErickson" huh? Some sockpuppets don't know how to be subtle.
This should be fun to watch. I'll go make some popcorn. ;D
Catfish

 

[oldiesstation]

Popcorn and a pair of Hip Waders from LL bean!!!

 

[DeeMcVicker]

I understand from the people at KTWN that they were dissatisfied with the audio performance of the Wheatstone box, and went back to their Omnia 11, which is running MPX over AES.

Nice try, Foti.

 

[WNTIRadio]

This is not marketing for either side, just experience. So far, I haven't been satisfied with the Wheatstone boxes. Granted, I haven't tried the new V3 or whatever the latest model is from Wheatstone/Vorsis. The fact that they've been through about 6 models in 6 years tells me that R&D needs to slow down, really evaluate the product, and release ONE top of the line box that they stick with for more than 18 months.

Digital MPX sounds interesting, don't have a place I can try it out as of yet... but from the data compressed crap I hear on most stations, I can't see that it would make a difference. It will only impact the ones that still care about how they sound.

 

[fm-engineer]

This is not marketing for either side, just experience. So far, I haven't been satisfied with the Wheatstone boxes. Granted, I haven't tried the new V3 or whatever the latest model is from Wheatstone/Vorsis. The fact that they've been through about 6 models in 6 years tells me that R&D needs to slow down, really evaluate the product, and release ONE top of the line box that they stick with for more than 18 months.

Digital MPX sounds interesting, don't have a place I can try it out as of yet... but from the data compressed crap I hear on most stations, I can't see that it would make a difference. It will only impact the ones that still care about how they sound.

I agree WNTI. With some of these boxes costing between $10,000 and $12,000, one would expect the flagship product to last more than a year or so before its replaced with the next version. The idea is to make improvements through software, etc. I haven't tried the mpx over AES yet. I have two Omnia 11's in service, but from what I've learned they have to be shipped back to Omnia for an additional AES card that supports the higher sampling rate. Whenever Nautel makes the upgrades available to the exciters we have I'm planning on sending back the Omnia 11's for the update.

 

[oldiesstation]

So,this validates my earlier post that the 11 does indeed have to be sent back for the hardware update to AES 192 baseband and Mr. Foti denied that. Wheatstone was first with the concept.Listen guys,i've heard all the boxes 9,11,air aura. all sound good,voice still goes to the air aura.Tweak the box to your liking and go with it.enough of all this fodder and trade puffery.

 

[FFoti1]

So,this validates my earlier post that the 11 does indeed have to be sent back for the hardware update to AES 192 baseband and Mr. Foti denied that. Wheatstone was first with the concept.Listen guys,i've heard all the boxes 9,11,air aura. all sound good,voice still goes to the air aura.Tweak the box to your liking and go with it.enough of all this fodder and trade puffery.

I never denied your claim. I denied your comment about the internal sampling rate which has always been 192kHz in Omnia.11. Sending the unit back for the new connector is happening on Omnia's dime, as we made the engineering decision not to repurpose an existing AES connector for the MPX purpose. There will be plenty of facilities that will need the MPX AES connector, and the existing AES connectors and features in the L/R domain. If you have repurposed one of the existing L/R AES connectors, you might end up with a facility issue. It all comes down to designer preference. Since, we're adding this at no cost, the topic of this is moot. All new units have the connector.

As stated prior, we had this on-air not long after NAB, but did not feel the need to trumpet the "we're first" occurrence. Remember, this was up and running at NAB, long before any other processor or exciter company initiated it.

BTW: The concept - in general - was first shown by Omnia in 1998 at NAB, as a method called "D/CET". There's an NAB paper on the topic. If you check out the recent Nautel webinar, you'll get the detailed reasoning why it's taken this long for a common method to come to fruition.

The present method evolved from a joint gathering between Omnia and Nautel. The fact that it is able to be common tech among all manufacturers is also a mutual decision made by Omnia and Nautel. Had that not occurred, then there would have been proprietary methods, which possibly are not compatible, and then the marketplace suffers.

It's of benefit to the industry that there's so much interest in this, and that it has become deployed by numerous vendors.

-Frank Foti

 

[DeeMcVicker]

Granted, I haven't tried the new V3 or whatever the latest model is from Wheatstone/Vorsis. The fact that they've been through about 6 models in 6 years tells me that R&D needs to slow down, really evaluate the product, and release ONE top of the line box that they stick with for more than 18 months.

Digital MPX sounds interesting, don't have a place I can try it out as of yet... but from the data compressed crap I hear on most stations, I can't see that it would make a difference. It will only impact the ones that still care about how they sound.

I agree WNTI. With some of these boxes costing between $10,000 and $12,000, one would expect the flagship product to last more than a year or so before its replaced with the next version. The idea is to make improvements through software, etc.

WNTIRadio, we're hoping to change your mind about the AirAura! The AirAura X3 is actually our third model, not sixth, in well more than six years, so I guess you could say that Wheatstone is pacing R&D at the same rate as Moore's Law -- or the 18 months to two years that you mention. If you're buying a new audio processor for $10 to $12K, as fm-engineer pointed out, it should take advantage of all the latest firmware and hardware, after all.

Of course, that doesn't take away from the fact that we definitely use software updates as a way to make ongoing improvements to our processors. Actually, the Wheatstone baseband 192 (MPX over AES) that is the subject of this thread is a software upgrade for existing AirAuras and it's standard in the new X3 models. Have we changed your mind yet?

 

[WNTIRadio]

Well, if you count the 1000, and the 2000, then we're up to a count of 5. Air Aura we're up to a count of 3.

Still, I'd like to hear the X3. Demoed a 2.0 and just couldn't get used to the sound of the high end, it was always either too soft or too strident. Mike even came up to help me tune it.

I am wary of telling a client to spend $10-12k on a box to have it replaced by another model in 18 months. You gotta see that's an issue. I can get an 11. 9 or an 8600 (or a One, David IV, or 5500) and do updates via firmware upgrades. I know Wheatstone has done firmware upgrades as well, but this constant hardware change is tough to swallow. How do I answer a client when they ask, "Hey, why is there a better model out now? We just spent a Kia's amount of money on this latest and greatest box!"

 

[cgould]

Not trying to fan any flames...don't want to, and will not get involved in any flame wars. As the guy who worked closely with our engineers to make this happen, I do want to point out a few things that some are deliberately trying to skew in the wrong direction here.

Frank has already addressed other points, so I won't duplicate this here.

The purpose of our approach was to start with something EASY for transmitter manufacturers to implement. Which is, take a standard AES transport scheme that operates at 192 kHz, and feed FM composite baseband on the left channel. We deliberately stayed away from anything that was different from the AES standard as this would make it easy for ANYONE to implement right now. No need to get into committees and all that would take forever to work out to make digital composite happen. Many transmitter folks contacted us, about it, and when I told them that this is all it was, there was disbelief for a while.

Orban and probably others have ideas to extend the capability of the system by using the "other channel" in ways to enhance the system. This is great. There is lots of room to grow here, and we can all work together to make it happen. We made the first public step to just get the idea out there, and see what happens. Nautel joined us in this effort. The response was way bigger than any of us expected!

Since the system runs at 192 kHz, the baseband bandwidth is 96 kHz. Anyone running 192 kHz according to the AES standard will have this bandwidth to work with, and the Omnia.11 has this. I've seen posts that are showing all kinds of misleading info here.

It's amazing how such a simple idea has turned into such a major p*&@ing match, and I'm not getting involved in it. Just wanted to put the above out there. I'm too busy creating new ideas & tech, and enjoying my family to waste the time on internet flame wars.

Regards,

Cornelius Gould

 

[oldiesstation]

I'd be wary of having to tell a client,we need to pull that 11 and send it to cleveland because the existing connector can't be repurposed because the box can't switch it in its current state.That was my point all along.Not wanting to hear bloviating spinning a limitation as a means of being more flexible, even those the change is on omnia's dime.Poor engineering and it's costing them money to correct it.

 

[PaulyBoy]

I'd be wary of having to tell a client,we need to pull that 11 and send it to cleveland because the existing connector can't be repurposed because the box can't switch it in its current state.That was my point all along.Not wanting to hear bloviating spinning a limitation as a means of being more flexible, even those the change is on omnia's dime.Poor engineering and it's costing them money to correct it.

And I'd be weary of telling a client to buy a Wheatstone box because there's a good chance that they'll be coming out with another hardware model next year or the year after that. I agree with WNTI, these guys have offered many models over a relatively short period. At 10 grand a pop, it gets expense.

 

[FFoti1]

Let me make, what I hope will be, one final statement on this topic. There are several processor choices available on the market today. All have different engineering approaches and features. Choose the ones in your price range, and try them all out. Then, pick the one that sounds the best to you. It's really that easy.

At the end of the day, it's how the system sounds on-the-air that matters most, not who did what first, or debates over moot issues. The concepts we've been initiating over recent years are designed to hopefully improve broadcasting for everyone...SSBSC for FM-Stereo, and MPX over AES. That's always been the intent. Offer tech, available to everyone, which betters the marketplace we work within.

-Frank Foti

 

[DeeMcVicker]

Well, if you count the 1000, and the 2000, then we're up to a count of 5. Air Aura we're up to a count of 3.

Still, I'd like to hear the X3. Demoed a 2.0 and just couldn't get used to the sound of the high end, it was always either too soft or too strident. Mike even came up to help me tune it.

I am wary of telling a client to spend $10-12k on a box to have it replaced by another model in 18 months. You gotta see that's an issue. I can get an 11. 9 or an 8600 (or a One, David IV, or 5500) and do updates via firmware upgrades. I know Wheatstone has done firmware upgrades as well, but this constant hardware change is tough to swallow. How do I answer a client when they ask, "Hey, why is there a better model out now? We just spent a Kia's amount of money on this latest and greatest box!"

I think the short answer is that you buy the best audio processor for your purposes and your budget. Because let's face it, any time you think you have the latest model of anything, just wait a day or month or year. And, I'm not talking new products from just one manufacturer, either. New models happen. It could be an Omnia or an Orban or a Wheatstone.

As it should be. Let's hope that manufacturers are investing in the sound of radio. I know Wheatstone is, and I think the other guys are too. So if something as significant as MPX over AES comes along, your clients should be able to take advantage of that regardless of which transmitter or audio processor they have. And, if it's any small comfort to your clients, baseband 192 is actually an AirAura software upgrade. No hardware changes needed. We're not asking your clients to buy an entirely new AirAura model to get this.

 

[WNTIRadio]

Just spoke with Mike via email at Wheatstone... The X3 is a software upgrade for the Air Aura. As was the AP1000 to AP2000 change.

I stand corrected on that, but as I said to him, the marketing dept at Wheatstone needs to make that clearer. I'm not the only engineer, GM or OM to think each hardware box was a dead end.

Wheatstone is usually very good at marketing, this aspect isn't being promoted, which may scare some folks (it did in one case) from even trying the box to begin with.

Question for the Omnia guys... Will this also appear in the 9? Have one paired with a Nautel right now.

 

[bigtom101]

And I'd be weary of telling a client to buy a Wheatstone box because there's a good chance that they'll be coming out with another hardware model next year or the year after that. I agree with WNTI, these guys have offered many models over a relatively short period. At 10 grand a pop, it gets expense.

Ahhh PaulyBoy, the Omnia stooge. Frank must be REALLY pissed to have you log in.

 

[Overworked Engineer]

Well, I see that some of the usual fanboys and muckrakers are out in force to make sure that this thread turns into a giant insult fest right out of kindergarten.

As was pointed out quite accurately, in spite of features, industry rag reviews, stats, claims and press, ultimately the station will decide which processor sounds the best to their ears.

Period.

The end.

I tried four different processors from various companies and gave a good listen to each for several days, then made my decision.
You know which one I picked?

None of your business!

 

[cgould]

Yes it will. This is something Leif knows very well! Stay tuned!

 

[stewdioman]

...ultimately the station will decide which processor sounds the best to their ears.

Big smile from me on this one. Your point is a good one - it IS the point.

That's the part that appears to bother some on this thread... they can't understand that this is the very reason why they're unsuccessful.