When 700 WLW Was 500,000 Watts

[Tom Wells]

I grew up about 8 miles from WABC's Lodi NJ transmitter. WABC's 50 kw signal bled into everything.

There was a pay phone nearby. When you picked it up you heard Top 40 music from WABC, not a dial tone. My dad would be working on an old reel-to-reel tape recorder he had in the basement. If he grounded it, we heard WABC. A friend of mine got walkie-talkies for Christmas but every time he keyed one of them, he got WABC.

And that was with a 50 kw station. Imagine the signal being 10 times more powerful? I'm sure some people would get WLW on their metallic tooth fillings.

Gregg
[email protected]

I grew up about 8 miles from WJJD's transmitter in Des Plaines, Il and had the same issues that you had with WABC. The only thing in my favor was that they signed off at night in those days.

My relatives near WJJD (about 3 miles away) didn't seem to have a problem with overload. It overwhelmed the crystal radio I brought and pinned the signal meter on the Sony CF-450 but it didn't seem to cause any problems. Of course, they had a lot of old tube radios back then. I do remember WNWC overloading the FM section of an old Zenith though.

Back in the 60's, most radios had a real RF preselector circuit to prevent this problem.
Even the cheap 5 tube AMs had the benefit of RF conversion gain and selectivity in a pentgrid converter tube.

Now, it's 100 khz wide, and then whatever gets through a cheap ceramic IF filter at 455 khz.
Not much different from that crystal set.

 

[davideduardo]

Apparently, the Dr Brinkley greatly over stated many claims of performance in products, services and remedies he offered for sale over the air.

So does that mean I should cancel my goat gland procedure?

 

[pianoplayer88key]

I grew up about 8 miles from WABC's Lodi NJ transmitter.  WABC's 50 kw signal bled into everything.

There was a pay phone nearby.  When you picked it up you heard Top 40 music from WABC, not a dial tone.  My dad would be working on an old reel-to-reel tape recorder he had in the basement.  If he grounded it, we heard WABC.  A friend of mine got walkie-talkies for Christmas but every time he keyed one of them, he got WABC.    

And that was with a 50 kw station.  Imagine the signal being 10 times more powerful?  I'm sure some people would get WLW on their metallic tooth fillings.

Gregg
[email protected]

I grew up about 8 miles from WJJD's transmitter in Des Plaines, Il and had the same issues that you had with WABC. The only thing in my favor was that they signed off at night in those days.

My relatives near WJJD (about 3 miles away) didn't seem to have a problem with overload.  It overwhelmed the crystal radio I brought and pinned the signal meter on the Sony CF-450 but it didn't seem to cause any problems.  Of course, they had a lot of old tube radios back then.  I do remember WNWC overloading the FM section of an old Zenith though.

Back in the 60's, most radios had a real RF preselector circuit to prevent this problem.
Even the cheap 5 tube AMs had the benefit of RF conversion gain and selectivity in a pentgrid converter tube.

Now, it's 100 khz wide, and then whatever gets through a cheap ceramic IF filter at 455 khz.
Not much different from that crystal set.

Does this 1965 Zenith Royal 705 have a RF preselector circuit like you say, or a tuned RF front end?

http://picasaweb.google.com/PianoPlayer88Key/ZenithR705#5527657326808644802

Also are there any modern PLL or DSP pocket "ultralight" radios made recently that have that?
Also would it work for eleminating splatter/desense on 23kW 1300-KAZN 1/3 mi away so I could hear 1290-KKDD without QRM from 1300?  I'd prefer not to have to settle for 5kHz analog audio from nearby 1110-KDIS, and last time I was in KKDD's local area it was broadcasting full 10kHz audio.
Or, is there a point where a local signal is just too strong, and within, say, 10kHz or so, can't be cut down even with 1kHz BW and SSB on a high-end SDR like the Perseus, for example?  Would that be because of the audio modulation?
If that is the case, how strong CAN the signal be on a well-designed under-$100 pocket radio before the splatter starts getting into a signal 10kHz away?  If, for example, the strong signal is full-quieting* on a cheap portable (whose sensitivity is poor enough so that the graveyard channels are static-only at night), how would a signal 10kHz away fare on a better radio, assuming the pest is NOT IBOC?
*an example of what I mean by full-quieting: if you're listening to a station at a normal volume then it begins broadcasting an unmodulated carrier, if you turn it off you won't hear much if any difference in the noise level - it would almost be as if the radio was already turned off, as the static would be completely inaudible.
As for the weak target signal, assume that it's right at the level of atmospheric noise, and barely intelligible even if there was no pest splattering or desensing.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Sony had some AMs with a tuned RF stage, but the selectivity wasn't that good, I assume because of the IF transformers. It sure looks like an additional RF stage with two RF variable capacitors and one oscillator capacitor. The bigger air dielectric capacitors beat the smaller plastic dielectric unless you like to keep replacing them when the plastic goes bad.

 

[K4WRF]

Apparently, the Dr Brinkley greatly over stated many claims of performance in products, services and remedies he offered for sale over the air.

So does that mean I should cancel my goat gland procedure?

No, I wouldn't! You never know, 'ole Doc Brinkley might have been on to something there with a cure for those "nature" problems.

 

[quadraphonic]

Goat gland always cures what ails ya!

 

[dx1ng]

I'd love to see how their groundwave coverage would increase as well as the skywave.

If WLW were to go 500,000 from their current non-directional antenna, the 500uv/m ground-wave contour on the radio-locator map http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WLW&service=AM&status=L&hours=U would move from the second contour to the most distant (third) contour. Thus the current 50,000 watt WLW signal enjoyed in Toledo would be heard a good 40 miles or more beyond Detroit with 500,000 watts.

(The WLW signal would experience the same 10db difference as when an expanded band station switches from 1000 watts to 10000 watts).

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Here's a schematic I found online for the Zenith Royal 705M, and it not only has the tuned RF LC but an RF amplifier transistor as so labelled, tfcwings.

http://www.transistor-repairs.com/PDF_schematics/royal705M.pdf

Tom and others can tell you more about this.

 

[Tom Wells]

Yep, That Zenith has a preselector, and it's easy to tell on a radio with an air tuning capacitor like that;
assuming there's no FM section, you'll see two sections of the tuning capacitor with same size plates for tuning the
incoming frequency, and another set of plates which is smaller, and operates the local oscillator, usually higher in frequency
(which is why they're smaller).

The cheaper radios had only two-section tuning capacitors, but in the case of 5 tube AM radios, could still be fairly selective except on stronger overloads.

The Zenith Royal will do as well as any radio you can find without going into a communications receiver.
The Zenith lacks complete metal shielding which would be necessary to begin achieving the sort of rejection
you are looking for in order to hear weak signals so close to strong signals.

The next best choice for AM dxing short of a communications receiver is a 1960's era auto radio.
They DO have the sort of full shielding which will permit ONLY the signal coming in the coax to ever get amplified.
Oh, and the 262.5 khz IF in these old radios effectively gave sharper skirts to the IF response cutoff,
making another improvement in selectivity over a 455 khz design.

If you combine an old car radio with a seperately tuned, loose coupled loop, you'd have a killer
but cheap dx machine.

Rejection and desensing brings in a huge discussion on circuit bandwidth, AVC action and more but
received power levels are always relative. You can't hear a weak station on the dial if you're right next to and 10 khz off
from a 100 mw AM transmitter. So it's all about what you'd like to hear vs where the nearest undesired local is.

On the N side of Chicago, I can hear WCBS 880 despite WLS being 40 miles away, I cannot
listen to 660 , 710, or 770 out of New York because the Chicago 670, 720 and 780 are only about 20 miles away.
Unless I connect the tuned loop to the Collins 390A, set slice to 2 khz, etc.

 

[jd]

If you combine an old car radio with a seperately tuned, loose coupled loop, you'd have a killer but cheap dx machine.

You're right. My father did just that back in his younger days, except with a combination of selectable loops, which he aptly called a "wave-trap." Then he paired that contraption with a dipole about 40 feet long and 25 feet off the ground made of heavy gauge copper wire. It really was a killer setup. Also of note is that his father told stories about climbing trees at his farm in central Texas to string up longwire antennas. My grandfather connected them to home-built crystal sets mainly so he could listen to WLW back in the 1930's. He heard many other stations from all around the nation, too, but WLW was his favorite.

 

[trusty]

'Twould be interesting to see the effect of 500kw on all the new subdivisions and neighborhoods that didn't exist in the 1930's. (There have just GOT to be some Cincinnati lawyers wishing this would happen.)

 

[Ken Tucky]

'Twould be interesting to see the effect of 500kw on all the new subdivisions and neighborhoods that didn't exist in the 1930's. (There have just GOT to be some Cincinnati lawyers wishing this would happen.)

With the condition terrestrial broadcasting is in, undoubtedly more people would hear it with their teeth than their radio!

 

[kenglish]

Here's and idea, all of us DXers across the country should pool toughther enough money to pay of the FCC Fine that would come from WLW for kicking up the power to 500Kw. Just holler if you need any more good ideas

I suspect that many an FCC engineer-on-duty would take an unscheduled "coffee break", just for a few minutes, while they fired that puppy up to 500 KW. Of course, they might discretely send in a Reception Report and want a QSL Card.
Maybe a late-night "Experimental Period" test,....for "Homeland Security Purposes", could be arranged.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

If WLW fired up their 500kW transmitter, is it possible someone on the west coast could pick them up in the middle of the day, provided they had a selective enough radio (to dodge adjacents in Tijuana, Los Angeles, Sacramento, Seattle & Vancouver) and a longwire antenna? I can sometimes hear 700-KALL's lowly 50kW in San Diego county, CA, with only a Tecsun PL-380 portable and a Select-A-Tenna, and in fact heard them at noon in Cameron Corners, CA, on Friday with that setup.

As for the Zenith, it only does the AM band.
Also, some of my locals are quite a bit closer than 40 miles, or even 20 miles. There's a 10kW on 1130 at 6 miles, a 5kW/50kW on 760 at 7 miles, and a 5kW IBOC on 600 at 8 miles, and a 50kW/2.9kW on 1170 at 9 miles (which diplexes with a 5kW on 910), among others. Even a 77kW/50kW at 32 miles makes 680 and 700 impossible during the day without an external antenna, although both can be heard fairly well at night. At my grandma's house there's a 23kW/1kW (2-site) on 1300 whose day site diplexes with a 50kW/9.8kW on 1430 1/3 mile away (you can see the towers from her front yard), and a 50kW/20kW IBOC on 1110 at under 5 miles. You can probably imagine the difficulty of hearing adjacents there.
So, I guess some of my undesired locals are pretty strong. Sometimes they might even be "full quieting" on a cheap portable with its loopstick antenna disconnected, possibly.

 

[radioman148]

If WLW fired up their 500kW transmitter, is it possible someone on the west coast could pick them up in the middle of the day, provided they had a selective enough radio (to dodge adjacents in Tijuana, Los Angeles, Sacramento, Seattle & Vancouver) and a longwire antenna? I can sometimes hear 700-KALL's lowly 50kW in San Diego county, CA, with only a Tecsun PL-380 portable and a Select-A-Tenna, and in fact heard them at noon in Cameron Corners, CA, on Friday with that setup.

As for the Zenith, it only does the AM band.
Also, some of my locals are quite a bit closer than 40 miles, or even 20 miles. There's a 10kW on 1130 at 6 miles, a 5kW/50kW on 760 at 7 miles, and a 5kW IBOC on 600 at 8 miles, and a 50kW/2.9kW on 1170 at 9 miles (which diplexes with a 5kW on 910), among others. Even a 77kW/50kW at 32 miles makes 680 and 700 impossible during the day without an external antenna, although both can be heard fairly well at night. At my grandma's house there's a 23kW/1kW (2-site) on 1300 whose day site diplexes with a 50kW/9.8kW on 1430 1/3 mile away (you can see the towers from her front yard), and a 50kW/20kW IBOC on 1110 at under 5 miles. You can probably imagine the difficulty of hearing adjacents there.
So, I guess some of my undesired locals are pretty strong. Sometimes they might even be "full quieting" on a cheap portable with its loopstick antenna disconnected, possibly.

I highly doubt that you'd hear them on the west coast during the day. One exception may be in winter near sunset hours.

 

[BobOnTheJob]

I grew up about 8 miles from WABC's Lodi NJ transmitter. WABC's 50 kw signal bled into everything.

There was a pay phone nearby. When you picked it up you heard Top 40 music from WABC, not a dial tone. My dad would be working on an old reel-to-reel tape recorder he had in the basement. If he grounded it, we heard WABC. A friend of mine got walkie-talkies for Christmas but every time he keyed one of them, he got WABC.

And that was with a 50 kw station. Imagine the signal being 10 times more powerful? I'm sure some people would get WLW on their metallic tooth fillings.

Gregg
[email protected]

I grew up about 8 miles from WJJD's transmitter in Des Plaines, Il and had the same issues that you had with WABC. The only thing in my favor was that they signed off at night in those days.

My relatives near WJJD (about 3 miles away) didn't seem to have a problem with overload. It overwhelmed the crystal radio I brought and pinned the signal meter on the Sony CF-450 but it didn't seem to cause any problems. Of course, they had a lot of old tube radios back then. I do remember WNWC overloading the FM section of an old Zenith though.

Not much different from that crystal set.

If only it had the fidelity of a crystal set.

 

[davideduardo]

If WLW fired up their 500kW transmitter, is it possible someone on the west coast could pick them up in the middle of the day, provided they had a selective enough radio (to dodge adjacents in Tijuana, Los Angeles, Sacramento, Seattle & Vancouver) and a longwire antenna?

Remember for an AM to double the groundwave coverage it needs to quadruple the power (assuming uniform ground conductivity). That means 200 kw for a 50 kw station to double coverage area. Of course, you are not doubling the distance from the transmitter (radius) as what is doubled is square miles (or inches or kilometers).

Going from 50 kw to 500 essentially put Toledo and Indianapolis and even Howell, MI, in the primary day coverage of WLW... they published coverage maps in an ad in Broadcasting Magazine in the 40's.

Under rare conditions, you might get such a station but not as a day in and day out thing. For example, 10 kw 4VEH from Cap Hatiene, Haiti, was heard by me in the noon hour in NE Ohio... once.

 

[Icangelp]

...WLW... they published coverage maps in an ad in Broadcasting Magazine in the 40's.

David, are these coverage maps in one of the Broadcasting Mags on your site? If so, which one?

Thanks

 

[Icangelp]

I know the topic is the 500KW signal, but the owner of "The Nation's Station" was Powel Crosley through his Crosley Corporation. Powel was the idea man and sales promoter, and his brother, Lewis, was the engineer and manufacturing man.

Most know Crosley was responsible for the first low cost, mass produced radio, the Crosley Pup. He used the sale of the Pup and other Crosley radios to finance WLW & many innovative products.

The low cost Crosley automobile with a stamped metal engine.
The Shelvador refrigerator, the first refrigerator with a shelf in the door.
The "Icy Ball" refrigerator that used no electricity, and ran on kerosene.
The Go-bi-bi infant walker
The Crosley Moonbeam airplane, intended to be a product for the ordinary working man.
The Roamio car radio.
And many more.

The WLW studios can still be seen off I-75 near Cincinnati downtown. It housed the extensive studios of WLW, at one time, a single station national network. It was also the home of the Crosley Corporation, and a large manufacturing operation.

Check out the book, Crosley, for a very readable biography and plenty of info on WLW.

 

[davideduardo]

...WLW... they published coverage maps in an ad in Broadcasting Magazine in the 40's.

David, are these coverage maps in one of the Broadcasting Mags on your site? If so, which one?

Thanks

I really don't know... the site is locked as I'm changing from a Windows OS to Linux in order to enable CGI search scripting. Once the transition is finished I can reindex and a search on WLW should find the various WLW ads that have a "promotional" coverage area map.

The search options are not working right now, either.