When AM IBOC goes bad....

[Tom Wells]

The normal splash of AM IBOC is bad enough at 50-60 khz. When not properly set up it's even more of a pig.
KFUO AM 850 in Clayton, MO is a 5kw class B non-directional. Last week, besides the white noise 50-60 khz wide, were intermodulating
"specks" sounding like the AM going FM, or overmodulating to cutoff. Think "ignition noise" specks on VHF TV in the old days.
It sounded slightly like faraway thunderstorm static, like 1% duty cycle, except it was continuous until power-off.
These noises went from 720 to 980 khz. No other IBOC AMs I have heard have been anything like this.
That's almost 200 khz for ONE AM station.
Yes, I drove around to make sure it wasn't just overload.
I called the station last Thursday, and informed them they had a unusually wide spectrum, even for IBOC.
Today they are only splattering from 800khz to 900khz.
Did they really adjust anything or is it just magically "only" 100 kc wide now?
Is this an acceptable improvement? How wide is wide enough to earn an N.A.L.?
I would think 100 kc of bandwidth on AM is too much, Does one station really need to muscle out 8 others?

And, will anyone ever fix this, or is this just the new way?
If ibiquity's equipment is faulty, and doesn't conform to their NRSC "mask" is the license holder liable, or is ibiquity implicated, since the
engineering is proprietary? I would think some of the license holder's responsibility is mitigated since the operation of the equipment is now a proprietary secret, and could not simply be "adjusted" by an engineer into compliance.
How will the FCC police these standards if ibquity is just making them up as they go along?
"How much power is in the sidebands?'" "uh, we'll have to get back to you on that."
At what point in the process of trying to make such a station compliant would ibiquity become liable? Ever?
How would Joseph R. Blow ever have any idea why "his" station sounds awful from something 50 kc away?

 

[hipporadio]

The normal splash of AM IBOC is bad enough at 50-60 khz. When not properly set up it's even more of a pig.
KFUO AM 850 in Clayton, MO is a 5kw class B non-directional. Last week, besides the white noise 50-60 khz wide, were intermodulating
"specks" sounding like the AM going FM, or overmodulating to cutoff. Think "ignition noise" specks on VHF TV in the old days.
It sounded slightly like faraway thunderstorm static, like 1% duty cycle, except it was continuous until power-off.
These noises went from 720 to 980 khz. No other IBOC AMs I have heard have been anything like this.
That's almost 200 khz for ONE AM station.

"HOLY COW" - pardon the pun considering their Lutheran Church ownership and occupied IBOC bandwidth :

I'll bet the 770 and 920 folks are lovin' Marty Luther over this one! And what's "HD" on that facility all about anyway? Doesn't KFUO AM basically broadcast "Lutheran culture" during daylight hours to 70-somethings--and how many of them are clipping IBOC rebate coupons to lessen the cost of their BA HD radios?

And I seem to remember a very VERY old 50s-era transmitter at the base of that self-supporter on the monastery grounds. If that old rig is still in use... OH NO WAY--that dino couldn't handle the output of an AM Optimod let alone an IBOC buzzer

 

[SUPERCASTER]

An AM stations HD signal can appear to be in compliance at the transmitter site, but may be way out of compliance anywhere farther then the end of the driveway past the transmitter site.
What idiot thought up this problematic HD system?

 

[Tom Wells]

Re: When AM IBOC goes bad....KFUO still way out of spec

It's a week later, and KFUO is still 100khz wide.
Should I call the station again? Should I call Bob Struble? Should I call the Missouri Synod? Should the listeners of 880 just give up?
I am accustomed to listening to Chicago in St Louis, because I have >always< been able to.
Now, WLS 890 is completely unusable. I guess this was the intent.
I know better than to call the FCC, but I truly want to help these people get their flamethrowers back into their own neighbors spectra, not the neighbors 5 doors down the street.

So, anyone with a meaningful suggestion as to how to get this pig back in the pen, please share your ideas, or pick up the phone and
help make something happen.
How long can this go on?

Help, David E. If you have any compassion for humanity and ibiquity, help clean up this mess.
This would be good way to show your detractors you have meaningful influence in this industry.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help fix this.

 

[hipporadio]

Re: When AM IBOC goes bad....KFUO still way out of spec

It's a week later, and KFUO is still 100khz wide.
Should I call the station again? Should I call Bob Struble? Should I call the Missouri Synod?

So, anyone with a meaningful suggestion as to how to get this pig back in the pen...

Call the Missouri Synod?

I have a bit of "history" regarding KFUO before the Commission. ONLY ONE WORD comes to mind to describe their general attitude regarding "the rules"... ARROGANT, and "They don't apply to us". This is a gang that had the audacity back in the early 90s to defend a MAJOR EOE violation brought before the FCC with the argument: "We're the Lutheran Church... We broadcast Classical music... Black citizens don't listen to Beethoven, so WE [KFUO] don't have to hire them"... This is A TRUE KFOU response to a proceeding that nearly cost them their license! Seems not only did they lack minority staff, but they falsified EOE reports submitted to the FCC and were caught in that exercise in perjury.

As for getting "this pig back in the pen"... How about filing a Petion to Deny next time around... That seems to be language that KFUO is VERY FAMILIAR with.

 

[audiophile.]

That's not exactly true.

The issue was they only recruited from with those who were Lutherans, but their ethnic employee ratio was ok.

I'm glad they were the ones who put an end to ethnic quotas...

 

[ElCheapo]

Ordinarily, I'm against bad engineering practices, but in this case I'll make an exception. If it pisses off the DX crowd, I'm all for it.

PS... I've officially returned my last QSL card. File 13 baby!

 

[audiophile.]

Ummm, DX'ers are listeners too...

With type of attitude no wonder radio is taking a hit.

(This has to be the most outrageous post on this board) :

 

[vsa]

Just because they are able to overpay for radio properties with stockholder money, they think they are some sort of geniuses. Nothing good ever comes from this kind of arrogance. Shame on this kind of attitude!

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Ordinarily, I'm against bad engineering practices, but in this case I'll make an exception. If it pisses off the DX crowd, I'm all for it.

PS... I've officially returned my last QSL card. File 13 baby!

I know this may come as a total shock to your system and mind, but people have the right to listen to whatever they want to, whenever, and however they want to, and they don't require your permission.
The FCC's primary responsibility, original reason for existance, and it's main charge, is to prevent interference on the people's airwaves not to create new interference, as HD Radio does.
I rarely DX, but defend everyone's right to hear what they wish, even without your permission.

 

[hipporadio]

That's not exactly true.

The issue was they only recruited from with those who were Lutherans, but their ethnic employee ratio was ok.

I'm glad they were the ones who put an end to ethnic quotas...

Audiophile... You are correct (only) in regards to "hair-splitting" my statement "We're the Lutheran Church... We broadcast Classical music... Black citizens don't listen to Beethoven, so WE [KFUO] don't have to hire them"... I should have noted in prominent fashion, that statement was MY attempt (well over a decade later) to PARAPHRASE KFUO’s response to the FCC. While the actual diction may be slightly different, it is a fair SUMMARY of KFUO’s attitude in regards to a VERY SERIOUS proceeding that very-nearly ceased their operation. While I must confess to disgarding official documentation on this matter many years ago, I will argue that every other "statement" is correct.

Again, if I have missed a fact (or inadvertently messed one up over a decade later)--I will happily recant and stand corrected...

*KFUO and KFUO-FM are licensed to The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod
*KFUO-FM broadcast a unique Classical music format on a commercial channel over a very wide area in and around St. Louis
*KFUO-FM many times represented in pleadings before the Commission that it operated as a "non-commercial" station when it routinely sought and sold commercial advertising (NOT “underwriting”) in the St Louis market; and despite its “non-profit” status--it’s 99.1 frequency was designated for commercial use by the FCC--and was very much used in that manner by KFUO-FM.
*KFUO did indeed "prefer" that their staff have a "Lutheran background." The fulltime black employee on staff at KFUO had a connection to the Lutheran Seminary from whose campus KFUO maintained studios and an AM transmitter site (the very one that has stimulated this discussion). When asked to account for such in a serious EOE proceeding, KFUO attempted justification in a manner which echoed the pharaphrase I offered in the above post.
*The licenses of KFUO and KFUO-FM were REVOKED by staff, and suvived only upon appeal with several very harsh probationary stipulations.
*The KFUO licenses WERE NOT revoked because of minority staff numbers (and their religious affilation) within the KFUO operation. Had this been the case--KFUO would have incurred little more than a monetary forfeiture. The revocation was directly related to the FCC's determination that KFUO had (over many years) acted with "lack of candor"... You may now reach you own conclusions...
*IN NO WAY can KFUO be credited with "putting an end to ethnic quotas." Even those who celebrate such (and I am one) fear the nearly-constant reminder of the KFUO EOE incident when we debate the very root requirements of any EOE mandate.

OH... And KFUO 850 AM now owns an IBOC 'puter that seems to be getting a bit "piggy"... Well at least it's a daytimer, so it won't be bothering the fortunes of WHAS or WWL anytime soon

 

[ElCheapo]

Ummm, DX'ers are listeners too...

With type of attitude no wonder radio is taking a hit.

(This has to be the most outrageous post on this board) :

Well, if they're DXing, they're listeners without pertinent Arbitron diaries - which makes them as useless as tits on a bull when it comes to the bottom line.

 

[ElCheapo]

Ordinarily, I'm against bad engineering practices, but in this case I'll make an exception. If it pisses off the DX crowd, I'm all for it.

PS... I've officially returned my last QSL card. File 13 baby!

I know this may come as a total shock to your system and mind, but people have the right to listen to whatever they want to, whenever, and however they want to, and they don't require your permission.
The FCC's primary responsibility, original reason for existance, and it's main charge, is to prevent interference on the people's airwaves not to create new interference, as HD Radio does.
I rarely DX, but defend everyone's right to hear what they wish, even without your permission.

The FCC must also consider the greater good. DXing isn't worth protecting as it is used by an extreme minority.

 

[ElCheapo]

Ordinarily, I'm against bad engineering practices, but in this case I'll make an exception. If it pisses off the DX crowd, I'm all for it.

PS... I've officially returned my last QSL card. File 13 baby!

ElCheapo sure smells like a dumbed-down OldGringo, maybe ElCheap = OldGringo (kind of has a ring to it). Interesting that OldGringo is also a DX-hater, although he used to be one, but now only sees $$.

That's funny... We've been accused of being the same person more than once.

 

[hipporadio]

Ummm, DX'ers are listeners too...

With type of attitude no wonder radio is taking a hit.

(This has to be the most outrageous post on this board) :

Well, if they're DXing, they're listeners without pertinent Arbitron diaries - which makes them as useless as tits on a bull when it comes to the bottom line.

When the FCC chose (with MUCH wisdom) to reserve certain AM allocations for dependable wide-area interference-free radio service, I TOTALLY doubt they gave ANY serious consideration to “pertinent Arbitron diaries”... They DID give consideration to the unique qualities provided from within the AM spectrum. “DXing” is only an recreational offshoot generated by those very qualities—it was NEVER intended to be a justification for them. Granted, many of the Commission's early AM priorities have diminished over the years—but I doubt the interest of a ratings survey outfit had any bearing on that.

Efficient use of the AM band continues to be fodder for debate—but one fact CANNOT be disputed. This valuable national resource has been allowed to severely deteriorate over the years, and for what benefit? ...A whopping 5 to 50 watts of nighttime power that seldom make their way much beyond the transmitter property... Or a few more watts into a complex DA which reaches half the area covered by a larger community... Or finally—IBOC, which “gags” an otherwise state-of-the-art fine-sounding AM transmitter so ONE PERCENT of the “public” (usually IBOC implementers) can enjoy the stunning super-lossy digital compression scheme imposed on a format that seldom benefits... While the other 99% suffer interference that guarantees their eventual abandonment of AM radio. Did someone here also mention "the greater good" ???

And as for those so-called “pertinent Arbitron diaries”... Besides being an obvious oxymoron—it’s a lame justification for throwing the IBOC “wrecking ball” at the AM band. Now that’s OUTRAGEOUS!

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The FCC must also consider the greater good. DXing isn't worth protecting as it is used by an extreme minority.

Most suburban listeners are medium fringe DX'ers as it is. They will have to adopt significant DX techniques to pull in enough signal for a usable IBOC decode. Otherwise, they will never hear HD radio, especially in suburban electronics store demos - and therefore see no advantage to it. Since suburban listeners are the most affluent listeners, so much for HD sales.