When did Los Angeles become the second largest TV market?

[davideduardo]

Im just not sure how NBC and CBS got the evidence that San Francisco is a larger Media Market than Los Angeles came from but I seen the 1930's census showing Los Angeles is larger than San Francisco at that point though. In the case of KCBS going to San Francisco wasn't this issue a debate over who got the CBS affiliation on 740 AM. Because KSFO was mentioned as one of the CBS Affiliates in the Bay area at the time and KQW was moving from San Jose to San Francisco at that time though.

Radio stations and media in general don't look at the population of individual cities... they look at metropolitan areas.

Up until the 1930 Census, San Francisco's metro was bigger than that of Los Angeles.

I already posted this link that shows metro area populations by decade, but here it is again:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/city-...as-decade.html

LA became important to radio with the growth of "talking" motion pictures, since many performers were featured in both radio and movies. This became significant, and despite San Francisco being the larger financial and communication center, it swung radio's interest in LA's favor even during the difficult years of the Great Depression.

 

[AM FM listener]

Radio stations and media in general don't look at the population of individual cities... they look at metropolitan areas.

Up until the 1930 Census, San Francisco's metro was bigger than that of Los Angeles.

I already posted this link that shows metro area populations by decade, but here it is again:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/city-...as-decade.html

LA became important to radio with the growth of "talking" motion pictures, since many performers were featured in both radio and movies. This became significant, and despite San Francisco being the larger financial and communication center, it swung radio's interest in LA's favor even during the difficult years of the Great Depression.

This link did not work for me but your previous one did. How come SF is considered the #4 "radio market" (per Nielsen) but does not show up in this ranking of "metro areas" (per whom)? Does it have to do with how the San Jose area is classified?

 

[davideduardo]

This link did not work for me but your previous one did. How come SF is considered the #4 "radio market" (per Nielsen) but does not show up in this ranking of "metro areas" (per whom)? Does it have to do with how the San Jose area is classified?

Nielsen defines radio markets under the unfortunately confusing "MSA" abbreviation: Metro Survey Area. The OMB and the Census Bureau also have MSAs, but the initials mean Metropolitan Statistical Area. Sometimes they are the same, but often as not different.

The San Francisco radio MSA includes everything from Santa Rosa to Campbell. San José is also broken out as a separate sub-market, called an embedded market. All the listening shown in the San Jose book is part of the total listening in the San Francisco book.

Radio MSA's are defined by listening to the "central" market stations as well as commute patterns; significant changes have to be approved by subscribers. For example, Miami and Ft Lauderdale were combined in 1982 following a vote of the subscribed stations. Similarly, Los Angeles and the Inland Empire were not combined some years later because most clients did not want it.

 

[AM FM listener]

Over the years, the gaps in between some metro areas have filled in, making the distinction between those two metro areas quite fuzzy -- e.g., SF and San Jose, LA and Inland Empire, Washington and Baltimore.

 

[davideduardo]

Over the years, the gaps in between some metro areas have filled in, making the distinction between those two metro areas quite fuzzy -- e.g., SF and San Jose, LA and Inland Empire, Washington and Baltimore.

San Jose is part of the San Francisco metro. It is what is called an "embedded market" which is a portion of a bigger market that is issued as an additional book. LA used to have an embedded market... Orange County... but there was not enough station support to continue it. Similarly, The Hamptons (East End market) used to be a market embedded in an embedded market (Nassau Suffolk, which is inside the NYC market). That one ended due to lack of ability to justify the cost increase when the PPM was introduced.

The issue with Baltimore and Washington is that very few radio stations from either market get much listening (or signal) beyond the market definition. In fact, market definitions are in part based on listening patterns.

The Inland Empire might qualify for inclusion in the LA MSA, but the subscribing stations in each market long ago voted not to consolidate due to the reduced shares most of them would have in a bigger geographical area. In fact, there is a piece of San Bernardino County from Fontana to Rancho Cucamonga including Ontario and Rialto that is part of neither MSA.

On the other hand, until 1981's station vote, Miami and Ft. Lauderdale were separate adjacent markets. They consolidated because most of FM the signals covered both markets, even though none of the AM's really did.

 

[hamster]

The largest city in the San Francisco metro area is...San Jose...not San Francisco. Offhand, I cannot think of another metro area whose name sake city is not the largest city in that metro.[

Norfolk, Virginia. The metro area is called Norfolk but the largest city in that metro is Virginia Beach.

 

[davideduardo]

Norfolk, Virginia. The metro area is called Norfolk but the largest city in that metro is Virginia Beach.

That, in part, is due to the Virginia way of considering some cities to be separate-but-equal to the surrounding counties.

Both Brooklyn (Kings) and Queens have larger populations than Manhattan(New York City) in the NYC metro area.

 

[dhett]

Both Brooklyn (Kings) and Queens have larger populations than Manhattan(New York City) in the NYC metro area.

Actually, both Brooklyn and Queens are officially part of New York City, as are the Bronx and Staten Island. They haven't been separate cities since 1898.

 

[davideduardo]

Actually, both Brooklyn and Queens are officially part of New York City, as are the Bronx and Staten Island. They haven't been separate cities since 1898.

They are Boroughs, somewhat like the independent cities of Virginia. Each Borough has a president (IIRC) and a separate criminal court justice system. The county as its specific representatives on the NYC city council. New York City is made up of five counties within New York State, with local names being the same as the county in two cases, and Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Staten Island corresponding to New York, Kings, and Richmond Counties respectively.

So what you have is a city that covers multiple counties, not a common occurrence in the US. But each of the couties is, within the state, separate. That's why I put the separate county name in parenthesis for New York (Manhattan) and Kings (Brooklyn).

In tabulating populations for the metro area, the county populations are the base. In radio, using county level data is critical to proportionality.

 

[tripinva]

They are Boroughs, somewhat like the independent cities of Virginia. Each Borough has a president (IIRC) and a separate criminal court justice system. The county as its specific representatives on the NYC city council. New York City is made up of five counties within New York State, with local names being the same as the county in two cases, and Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Staten Island corresponding to New York, Kings, and Richmond Counties respectively.

So what you have is a city that covers multiple counties, not a common occurrence in the US. But each of the couties is, within the state, separate. That's why I put the separate county name in parenthesis for New York (Manhattan) and Kings (Brooklyn).

I may not be understanding the discussion here in full, but as a Virginian, I think your comparison to Virginia's independent cities is probably off-base. Independent cities in Virginia are functionally the equivalent of counties--the two are not in a hierarchical relationship. The counties and the cities are entirely separate from each other. Fairfax City, for example, does not have representatives in the Fairfax County government, nor vice versa. Fairfax City has its own schools, public services, courts, etc., none of which comes from Fairfax County. (Because Fairfax City used to be part of Fairfax County, the Fairfax County courthouse is on land that is designated part of Fairfax County despite being entirely surrounded by Fairfax City. It's complicated.)

Independent cities can annex territory from counties through a process I don't know the details of and which I don't think has happened in recent years, but then the governance of that area moves entirely from one to the other. This is what happened in the Norfolk area where Virginia Beach entirely consumed Princess Anne County. But there is no more Princess Anne County nor any associated government of Princess Anne County; there is only the independent city of Virginia Beach.

- Trip

 

[semoochie]

I may not be understanding the discussion here in full, but as a Virginian, I think your comparison to Virginia's independent cities is probably off-base. Independent cities in Virginia are functionally the equivalent of counties--the two are not in a hierarchical relationship. The counties and the cities are entirely separate from each other. Fairfax City, for example, does not have representatives in the Fairfax County government, nor vice versa. Fairfax City has its own schools, public services, courts, etc., none of which comes from Fairfax County. (Because Fairfax City used to be part of Fairfax County, the Fairfax County courthouse is on land that is designated part of Fairfax County despite being entirely surrounded by Fairfax City. It's complicated.)

Independent cities can annex territory from counties through a process I don't know the details of and which I don't think has happened in recent years, but then the governance of that area moves entirely from one to the other. This is what happened in the Norfolk area where Virginia Beach entirely consumed Princess Anne County. But there is no more Princess Anne County nor any associated government of Princess Anne County; there is only the independent city of Virginia Beach.

- Trip

It sounds like you're saying that in Virginia, cities are not within county lines but actually separate. Is that what you mean because I've never heard of that happening and it sounds strange to me?

 

[KeithE4]

It sounds like you're saying that in Virginia, cities are not within county lines but actually separate. Is that what you mean because I've never heard of that happening and it sounds strange to me?

Most common in Virginia, but Baltimore and St. Louis are also independent cities.

 

[dhett]

They are Boroughs, somewhat like the independent cities of Virginia. Each Borough has a president (IIRC) and a separate criminal court justice system. The county as its specific representatives on the NYC city council. New York City is made up of five counties within New York State, with local names being the same as the county in two cases, and Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Staten Island corresponding to New York, Kings, and Richmond Counties respectively.

So what you have is a city that covers multiple counties, not a common occurrence in the US. But each of the couties is, within the state, separate. That's why I put the separate county name in parenthesis for New York (Manhattan) and Kings (Brooklyn).

In tabulating populations for the metro area, the county populations are the base. In radio, using county level data is critical to proportionality.

You are partially correct. New York City is made up of five boroughs, each a distinct county - that is true. But according to my New York State history books from school (I grew up in New York State), the five counties that make up the City of New York are counties in name only; they have ceded almost all of their administrative functions to the city. Bill de Blasio is mayor over all five boroughs. One police department serves all five boroughs. Both the Criminal Court and City Court systems are citywide systems, administered by the city. Unlike the rest of the State of New York, the five counties in New York City do not have county courts. The boroughs do not have representatives on the NY City Council, as you stated. The city is divided into 51 districts, each with a council member. Some districts span parts of multiple boroughs, such as District 8, which includes parts of Manhattan and parts of the Bronx, and District 34, which includes parts of Brooklyn and parts of Queens.

As far as using counties for proportionality is concerned, I don't believe that you will ever find an instance where the counties are split from each other. All five should be accounted together as they are all part of one unified political entity, New York City.

 

[tripinva]

It sounds like you're saying that in Virginia, cities are not within county lines but actually separate. Is that what you mean because I've never heard of that happening and it sounds strange to me?

Yep, that's how it works in Virginia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_city_(United_States)#Virginia

- Trip

 

[semoochie]

Most common in Virginia, but Baltimore and St. Louis are also independent cities.

Yep, that's how it works in Virginia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_city_(United_States)#Virginia

- Trip

Thank you both. I'm really surprised to hear about Carson City, somewhat closer to home!

 

[davideduardo]

As far as using counties for proportionality is concerned, I don't believe that you will ever find an instance where the counties are split from each other. All five should be accounted together as they are all part of one unified political entity, New York City.

Nielsen (this is a radio board, after all) uses not just the boroughs (in totally separate form) and even subsets of boroughs based on "affinity ZIP codes" called Geozones to establish the quotas and checks for proportionality when measuring the NYC Metro area. They also break out separately High Density Hispanic Areas and High Density Black Areas within the boroughs if applicable.

 

[dhett]

Nielsen (this is a radio board, after all) uses not just the boroughs (in totally separate form) and even subsets of boroughs based on "affinity ZIP codes" called Geozones to establish the quotas and checks for proportionality when measuring the NYC Metro area. They also break out separately High Density Hispanic Areas and High Density Black Areas within the boroughs if applicable.

Understood, so my previous overly broad statement stands corrected. However, this thread is about when Los Angeles became the 2nd largest TV market, but morphed into a discussion about the largest city in a market not being the namesake city, and that is the point I was addressing. I will leave it at that.

 

[davideduardo]

Understood, so my previous overly broad statement stands corrected. However, this thread is about when Los Angeles became the 2nd largest TV market, but morphed into a discussion about the largest city in a market not being the namesake city, and that is the point I was addressing. I will leave it at that.

Back to the question.

I found some data in the 1963 Television Factbook, which has the ARB ADI market statistics (Arbitron pulled out of TV, leaving us with the Nielsen DMA market definitions and ranks). By 1962, LA had almost exactly 300,000 more households than Chicago in the ADI. The total for LA was 3,169,300 households.

I can't find any earlier TV market rankers, so by extrapolation we'd have to guess that LA surpassed Chicago some time in the 50's. Looking at the metro area populations (and noting that TV markets are generally much bigger than metro areas), Chicago was #2 in 1950 and #3 in 1960. Given the rate of growth of each metro, a straight line graph intersects around 1954... again, just the metros, not the TV markets.

 

[fybush]

The Chicago market was also geographically limited earlier on than LA. Milwaukee had TV by 1947; Madison, Rockford, South Bend, etc. were all full markets of their own by the early 1950s. LA, by contrast, was limited only to the south (San Diego) and to some extent to the northwest (Santa Barbara) for many decades into the TV era, until the Palm Springs stations hit the air in the 1970s. Not that there was much population to be gained from viewership in eastern Riverside or San Bernardino Counties, of course - but every little bit adds up.

 

[davideduardo]

The Chicago market was also geographically limited earlier on than LA. Milwaukee had TV by 1947; Madison, Rockford, South Bend, etc. were all full markets of their own by the early 1950s. LA, by contrast, was limited only to the south (San Diego) and to some extent to the northwest (Santa Barbara) for many decades into the TV era, until the Palm Springs stations hit the air in the 1970s. Not that there was much population to be gained from viewership in eastern Riverside or San Bernardino Counties, of course - but every little bit adds up.

... and, just like AM radio in the 30's and 40's and FM in the 60's and 70's, the allocations and/or licensees congregated in the existing population centers.

Going back to the original post-freeze TV tables of allocations, much of the less-populated parts of the American West got no good stations or no prime allocations. Some of the most over-radioed markets in the country are in the population centers like Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Grand Junction, Albuquerque, Reno, Boise and similar hubs.

So Bishop, CA, did not get three network affiliated VHF channels. Victorville and Blythe and Barstow became part of the LA market because there was no big city nearby with significant stations. We may first think of cable (Community Antenna TV) as a way to get reception behind the hills and mountains of Pennsylvania, but it was also the way for small western towns to get service. That's why the Salt Lake City TV market came to include pieces of Colorado, Montana, Nevada, Wyoming and Idaho!

Your point about population gains in the more sparsely populated areas is supremely valid. Only when the Palm Springs/ Coachella Valley metro approached 100,000 persons did it become attractive, causing local TV stations to be inaugurated. Now, with a population estimated to be near 500,000 the market is fully self-sustaining with a shrinking percentage of LA TV offerings being carried; the local Frontier FiOS service only has one commercial LA channel, and much of it is blocked by syndication rights priorities.