I don't think any of them live outside of Knoxville.
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Where Oldies Music Still Lives
- Thread starter Dr Wayne
- Start date
I don't think any of them live outside of Knoxville.
No, but they could chip in and keep the stream going. Oh, and they all live outside of Knoxville -- FAR outside it...
Paul Allen is a major contributor to non-com KEXP-FM in Seattle. He has no need to give money to a station outside of Knoxville. Warren Buffett is an investor in Sirius. The Kardashian sisters work for Ryan Seacrest. You want more?
If rich boomers wanted to spend money on radio, the last place they'd put it is in a 1Kw AM station outside Knoxville. Boomers always want someone else to spend money on those stations so they can hear oldies for free.
Any audience that the WKCE format might garner (a doubtful thing itself) is going to be well over 70 years old. It's not that they left commercial radio... it is that commercial radio can not afford to serve elderly listeners because they are not, as a group, what advertisers... even local advertisers... want to reach.
Hey everyone, looks like there has been quite the discussion going on here since we last checked. It's all very interesting fodder for sure, despite a few cheap shots thrown in the mix. Let's see...where to begin...
I guess first and foremost, I should probably clarify that we have only been involved with WKCE over the past month. I can not speak to what was done with the signal prior to that, other than the fact that we never heard most of the formats that were supposedly on it. I've been told that the news format lasted about a week, maybe two. Judging by the condition of the site technically when we got involved, I can't imagine that it would have been very listenable for the short time that it was actually on the air. Nearest we can tell, over the past couple of years, the station had only been on air for maybe a month, non-consecutively. So any points about 'saving existing listeners' are completely moot in our case...this is a start from scratch scenario.
Now on to the discussion on the AM band, signals, and the ability to gain listeners at all (regardless of format, we'll cover that next). I don't deny that AM has significant challenges, especially in very urban areas where the interference is intense. As far as WKCE goes specifically, we have definitely done our homework and instead of relying on strictly maps and contours (we have plenty, I am an engineer)...we just got out there and drove it. Gr8Oldies, I don't know where you're getting your info from or what type of radio you have in your car, but in our real-world tests, the signal was quite listenable in Sevierville, Maryville, Seymour, and Knoxville proper. And, yes, that was on a standard factory car stereo on a late model vehicle. As we're new, whenever somebody contacts us (believe it or not, there have been far more than 10), we follow up to try to find out more about where and how they're listening. So far, we've been contacted by listeners in all of those places, and some more surprising ones like Farragut, Loudon, Strawberry Plains, New Market, and Gatlinburg. More surprisingly, we've found that they're listening in their homes to the on-air signal, not the stream. Now, before you jump all over that one guys, I'm not saying it's perfect, and I'm not saying that a handful of listeners is proof of anything, but it is encouraging.
No one from our side would try to argue that AM is a technology of the future (we can talk about switching to digital only broadcasts some other time...), however, despite the increasing percentage of Bluetooth and even in-dash streaming available on modern vehicles, one technology is available on virtually all makes/models/years...AM. To us, (and yes, perhaps only us), that can still be an advantage.
Now to the area of perhaps the biggest controversy, our format. Mr. Richards, you mentioned that we didn't do 'standard research' on our music. You are correct. However, it has absolutely nothing to do with finances. I'm well aware of how 'researched' oldies and classic hits formats are put together, having worked on and with several of them in the past. As many of you have made abundantly clear, AM has no shot against a big FM, so why in the world would we want to put on a WNOX clone? In our opinion, offering something completely different than anything else on the dial is the only way to bring people in. Many of you have raised the point that our format will not play well in the ratings world, and even if it did, the 55+ demo is undesirable to agencies. We mostly agree with that point. We are not going after agency buys here...and we're well aware that Knoxville is a very ratings-centric agency-based ad buying environment. But we see that as a unique advantage...let me explain.
Let's say I just opened a small cafe in Seymour. I want to market to an older audience to get people in for the early-bird special. Where do I go to do that? Knoxville stations? Probably not, my rate of return wouldn't be high enough to justify the ratings based cost of a good campaign. What about the Newspaper? Quite frankly, newspapers are in worse shape than ever but maybe. Facebook? As much prevalence as Facebook has, it's ability to reach my target audience is still somewhat limited. But what about a local family-owned AM radio station targeting that age group that is willing to build a business relationship with me and work with me to come up with a campaign that can bring results? Maybe they would be willing to do a special promotion with me that would be low cost, but would bring new people in the door.
That, my friends, is what we're all about. And no, we're not going to make a million dollars here. One of you on this thread referenced some numbers around selling at 'a dollar a holler'...we don't plan to do that; however, that grand total of $56k a year would be a huge profit for us! It's important to note that we didn't go into this without a business plan or realistic expectations. We are not reliant on the income from this station for our personal livelihood, but I should emphasize that this is also not a 'hobby' for us either. The station will need to support itself monetarily, and we fully intend to make that happen within one year.
We believe that we have a compelling product that is simply fun to listen to, and on that point with most of you we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you haven't yet, we encourage you to take a listen...just to listen, not as a consultant or music expert. If you like it, great! If you don't, that's completely OK too... Remember, you don't have to agree with any of our points of view or root for us to succeed...all we ask is that you don't root for us to fail!
WKCE
I guess first and foremost, I should probably clarify that we have only been involved with WKCE over the past month. I can not speak to what was done with the signal prior to that, other than the fact that we never heard most of the formats that were supposedly on it. I've been told that the news format lasted about a week, maybe two. Judging by the condition of the site technically when we got involved, I can't imagine that it would have been very listenable for the short time that it was actually on the air. Nearest we can tell, over the past couple of years, the station had only been on air for maybe a month, non-consecutively. So any points about 'saving existing listeners' are completely moot in our case...this is a start from scratch scenario.
Now on to the discussion on the AM band, signals, and the ability to gain listeners at all (regardless of format, we'll cover that next). I don't deny that AM has significant challenges, especially in very urban areas where the interference is intense. As far as WKCE goes specifically, we have definitely done our homework and instead of relying on strictly maps and contours (we have plenty, I am an engineer)...we just got out there and drove it. Gr8Oldies, I don't know where you're getting your info from or what type of radio you have in your car, but in our real-world tests, the signal was quite listenable in Sevierville, Maryville, Seymour, and Knoxville proper. And, yes, that was on a standard factory car stereo on a late model vehicle. As we're new, whenever somebody contacts us (believe it or not, there have been far more than 10), we follow up to try to find out more about where and how they're listening. So far, we've been contacted by listeners in all of those places, and some more surprising ones like Farragut, Loudon, Strawberry Plains, New Market, and Gatlinburg. More surprisingly, we've found that they're listening in their homes to the on-air signal, not the stream. Now, before you jump all over that one guys, I'm not saying it's perfect, and I'm not saying that a handful of listeners is proof of anything, but it is encouraging.
No one from our side would try to argue that AM is a technology of the future (we can talk about switching to digital only broadcasts some other time...), however, despite the increasing percentage of Bluetooth and even in-dash streaming available on modern vehicles, one technology is available on virtually all makes/models/years...AM. To us, (and yes, perhaps only us), that can still be an advantage.
Now to the area of perhaps the biggest controversy, our format. Mr. Richards, you mentioned that we didn't do 'standard research' on our music. You are correct. However, it has absolutely nothing to do with finances. I'm well aware of how 'researched' oldies and classic hits formats are put together, having worked on and with several of them in the past. As many of you have made abundantly clear, AM has no shot against a big FM, so why in the world would we want to put on a WNOX clone? In our opinion, offering something completely different than anything else on the dial is the only way to bring people in. Many of you have raised the point that our format will not play well in the ratings world, and even if it did, the 55+ demo is undesirable to agencies. We mostly agree with that point. We are not going after agency buys here...and we're well aware that Knoxville is a very ratings-centric agency-based ad buying environment. But we see that as a unique advantage...let me explain.
Let's say I just opened a small cafe in Seymour. I want to market to an older audience to get people in for the early-bird special. Where do I go to do that? Knoxville stations? Probably not, my rate of return wouldn't be high enough to justify the ratings based cost of a good campaign. What about the Newspaper? Quite frankly, newspapers are in worse shape than ever but maybe. Facebook? As much prevalence as Facebook has, it's ability to reach my target audience is still somewhat limited. But what about a local family-owned AM radio station targeting that age group that is willing to build a business relationship with me and work with me to come up with a campaign that can bring results? Maybe they would be willing to do a special promotion with me that would be low cost, but would bring new people in the door.
That, my friends, is what we're all about. And no, we're not going to make a million dollars here. One of you on this thread referenced some numbers around selling at 'a dollar a holler'...we don't plan to do that; however, that grand total of $56k a year would be a huge profit for us! It's important to note that we didn't go into this without a business plan or realistic expectations. We are not reliant on the income from this station for our personal livelihood, but I should emphasize that this is also not a 'hobby' for us either. The station will need to support itself monetarily, and we fully intend to make that happen within one year.
We believe that we have a compelling product that is simply fun to listen to, and on that point with most of you we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you haven't yet, we encourage you to take a listen...just to listen, not as a consultant or music expert. If you like it, great! If you don't, that's completely OK too... Remember, you don't have to agree with any of our points of view or root for us to succeed...all we ask is that you don't root for us to fail!
WKCE
I'm nowhere near your market so rooting for you to succeed via streaming!
K
K.M. Richards
Guest
Said the guy who by that admission is not one of the people who the owner is trying to attract for local advertisers.
I don't think anyone is rooting for you to fail. Anyone who ever had a romantic affair with the radio has to be rooting for you. And you should know that you're not alone in your passion. Through these boards, I've read similar stories in other places, with radio stations being resurrected from the scrapheap by people who share your dream. I think you're going about it the right way, with limited expectations, limited debts, and unlimited passion and imagination. Remember that it HAS to be fun. Otherwise, why would you do it?
Amen. What TheBigA said. Plus a request to check back in here every....quarter or so?....and update us on how that's going.
If you can make a profit on $56K gross that you and your partners are happy with, then rock on!
But still a supporter none the less.
And one wonders......what is the purpose of him streaming if he doesn't want listeners via that means?
Last edited:
Thanks for checking back in. I would never suggest doing a WNOX clone, but I think you could highlight "the first generation of rock and roll", be more familiar, and get more of a mainstream (if older) audience. I'm thinking WDJO
If you're open to it, I'd love to get together with you for a cup of coffee. I'm not job hunting, but I can share some ideas if you're interested. Feel free to PM me here or I'll follow up with you on Facebook.
If you're open to it, I'd love to get together with you for a cup of coffee. I'm not job hunting, but I can share some ideas if you're interested. Feel free to PM me here or I'll follow up with you on Facebook.
K
K.M. Richards
Guest
You didn't ask the entire question. It is not whether or not he wants listeners, period, via those means. He is doing what many stations do and streams for the convenience of his local audience. Streaming is one more option for them to be able to listen anywhere.
Listeners who access a stream outside of its local area are meaningless in terms of audience that a local advertiser wants to reach. Let's take one example which he gave himself ... small cafe in Seymour trying to reach older listeners with their early-bird special. Advertising that to you is pretty much futile, because there's no way you're going to be going to Seymour to eat.
Therefore, the expense of making the station available to you via an Internet stream has no chance of being recouped by the advertising, because you are too far removed geographically from the local advertisers.
He needs local ears as supporters, not additional costs to reach people he can't market to. Having you as a listener in -- where is it again? Atlanta? -- does nothing to make the station attractive to the cafe owner in Seymour.
This is why geofencing is beginning to catch on.
Or subscription listening. If he had the resources, I'd suggest creating a platform that includes content not available on the air for his subscribers. They may only add a few hundred bucks, maybe even a thousand. But it'll do a lot to help cover those royalty costs. If you build a listener data-base, you can market to them. So there are ways to monetize online. But it takes dedicated listeners and extra content.
A very strange thing happened over a decade back: The local Oldies station in Portland got a request from a small town in Idaho from someone listening to their stream. Soon after that, the town's car dealership began to advertise on the station and then other stations. Not long after that, I began seeing cars that had been purchased from them which was some 500 miles away! This was not even anywhere near Boise but just a small town somewhere in Idaho.
Seems to me the dealership association has rules about out-of-town advertising. Otherwise it would be more prevalent.
And do those local car ads appear on the stream in violation of the AFTRA ban?
Not that I'm doubting your story...just asking a couple of questions.
I have no idea whether or not they ran ads on the stream. They were aimed at local listeners of the Portland stations where they advertised and that's where I saw the cars. I can't recall the name of the town right now or I would say what it was. I haven't noticed the spots for a long time. They may or may not have been discontinued. I think it's not more prevalent because common sense would tell you that people don't generally drive 500 miles to buy a car! I just thought of something else: The same dealership had billboards up around town and I also saw some billboards for a Seattle business. This just goes on and on! Is this just an auto association ban or does it apply to anything out of market? I'm guessing there must be spots for Las Vegas casinos on LA stations and Reno casinos on San Francisco stations. I know they advertise one of the beach casinos in Portland.
I'm speaking specifically of auto dealer association. And this is only for new cars, not used cars. The reason being that car dealerships are meant to be local businesses.
Given that his station is attractive to 55+ I would opine that not many of those people listen to Internet streams. And, given that you can actually receive his signal it is much easier to listen via the good old AM radio. Don't get me wrong - I appreciate his stream. I just don't understand why he does it.
Reference the auto dealers advertising - there are at least two kinds: (a) ads from a local dealership and (b) ads from a dealer association. I would think only the dealer would care in (a) above but the association might get upset if they found their ad dollars were going to out-of-area markets.
I'm surprised that it wasn't the other way around, given that Idaho's sales tax rate is 6% and Oregon's is zero. Used to see that a lot growing up in Bishop, 200 miles from Reno, where the income tax rate was 3% to our 5%. You'd save a few hundred bucks on a new car.
As for the dealership association, when I lived in Phoenix, there was a small-town Ford dealer, Jones Ford, with locations in Buckeye (35 miles from Phoenix) and Wickenburg (65 miles from Phoenix). They would advertise on Phoenix TV and radio about the advantages of buying from them (lower overhead, lowest city tax). They were never listed in the Arizona Ford Dealers group advertising, so I assume they simply weren't a member and there wasn't much the association could do to them. Come to think of it, for a few years, there was a Subaru dealer in Flagstaff (144 miles from Phoenix) that advertised the same advantages on Phoenix TV and radio, too.
- Status