Where Oldies Music Still Lives

[davideduardo]

And rap & hip-hop.

It's funny that people who don't like a type or genre of music find it to "all sound the same".

The key here is that the overpowering dislike of the genre precludes recognition of subsets and differences between songs.

I dislike... somewhat passionately... the music most define as "standards". I suppose that careful listening would reveal that Fred Waring is quite different from Benny Goodman or Guy Lombardo, but the fact is that I don't want to dissect something that I universally can't tolerate. So I also make the blanket statement that all standards sound the same.

The fact is that rap & hip hop does not sound the same, nor do "standards" even if I can't make the distinction personally.

 

[landtuna]

The fact is that rap & hip hop does not sound the same, nor do "standards" even if I can't make the distinction personally.

I would agree that hip-hop does not all sound the same but disagree that there is much difference in rap.

I am somewhat surprised you don't see differences in Standards though.

Several days ago I sent out the URL to some of my Geezer friends. One person replied that when he connected his wife yelled for him to turn it up and went dancing off into the kitchen. That's kinda what the music does for me too although I can't dance worth a lump.

 

[CTListener]

I would agree that hip-hop does not all sound the same but disagree that there is much difference in rap.

I am somewhat surprised you don't see differences in Standards though.

Several days ago I sent out the URL to some of my Geezer friends. One person replied that when he connected his wife yelled for him to turn it up and went dancing off into the kitchen. That's kinda what the music does for me too although I can't dance worth a lump.

If you have no interest in rhythm-based genres, everything in one of those genres is likely to sound alike. Same is true for melody-based genres.My dad's musical interest was classical. Growing up, I thought it all sounded the same. Now that I'm listening to it myself rather than just tolerating it, I can discern differences. My freshman year college roommate was black, from New York City, and all he listened to was R&B. He used to complain that my music all sounded the same and had "no melody." I was playing Cat Stevens, Crosby Stills & Nash and the Marshall Tucker Band. He was playing Isaac Hayes, Curtis Mayfield and Stevie Wonder, but because the Top 40 stations I listened to also played those artists, they did NOT sound the same to me..

 

[TheFonz]

................ let's enjoy that little station and celebrate the uniqueness. It would be easy enough to link up to satellite and plug in any commercials you can sell. I'm sure it will never be a cash cow, but another option on the dial is better than fewer options. And without this attempt, the station might have been in need of a tombstone yesterday.

Amen!

 

[klutch00]

Exactly and it's what makes this entire subject difficult to understand. If radio was just about playing music, it would be a whole lot easier. The difficult part is making money. So I always tell people if you have your business plan organized, the music will do itself. You need to spend the time finding the money. It sounds like this guy in Knoxville has realistic expectations.

I have to concur! Moreover, there are other ways of raising revenue besides advertising! One only need to look at Bob Bittner's operations to see how it can be done.

 

[klutch00]

While we sit and analyze the format chosen and wager opinions of whether the station will make it, we need to realize we are not in the drivers seat and not privy to the information the owner is utilizing to make the decisions he does. Small market radio is a totally different animal. It is amazingly different from the competitive markets where you live and die by ratings. Probably the finest compliment a small town station can be told is "move the station 30 miles down the road and it would never work". Small market radio is much more about information and involving the community than the songs you play (within reason...I doubt death metal and hometown news would be a big draw).

I'm hoping for the station's success. It will certainly be more about low start up costs and low monthly overhead than anything else.

Meanwhile, let's enjoy that little station and celebrate the uniqueness. It would be easy enough to link up to satellite and plug in any commercials you can sell. I'm sure it will never be a cash cow, but another option on the dial is better than fewer options. And without this attempt, the station might have been in need of a tombstone yesterday.

You hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph here!!! This is why I think it's time to get big corporations out of the business of small town broadcasting wherever they may be. I'm also not too keen about large broadcasters operating marginal facilities in bigger markets as well!

 

[TheBigA]

This is why I think it's time to get big corporations out of the business of small town broadcasting wherever they may be.

So how do you propose doing that?

 

[gr8oldies]

I must remind that Knoxville is market #71.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I must remind that Knoxville is market #71.

But it has been also established in this thread that the signal in Knoxville itself is marginal, so for all practical purposes the station is in a small-town, unrated market (that happens to be embedded in market #71).

 

[davideduardo]

This is why I think it's time to get big corporations out of the business of small town broadcasting wherever they may be.

With few exceptions, the larger broadcasters are not in "small town" broadcasting.

A good example of the "why" they are not can be seen in the Clear Channel idea of blanketing Ohio with the purchase of some very small market stations. They wanted to create a "total Ohio" sales network, and even arranged with Arbitron for a state-wide ratings tabulation. It did not work, and they have been spinning off those little stations for a decade.

On the other hand, there are some large groups of predominantly smaller market stations, such as those run by different members of the Ingstad family in the Upper Midwest. In those cases, these are experienced regional broadcasters with great knowledge of the area doing what appears to be very good radio in the smaller rated markets and some unrated ones as well.

You also have CBS, which ranges in market from New York City to Palm Springs and The Victor Valley... all of these are rated markets and they have good stations in all size towns.

I'm also not too keen about large broadcasters operating marginal facilities in bigger markets as well!

In some cases, those larger broadcasters that do specialty formats such as ethnic options and religious programming sustain otherwise failed stations. And they serve niche constituencies.

Beyond that, what defines a "marginal facility"?

 

[b-turner]

There is one thing I can say that is quite positive about the large broadcast groups: the have the operating budget to try new formats and options not available for the small company that needs every station to pull its weight. While a niche format might be too 'little' in the return department for the small broadcaster, the large broadcaster can bundle a niche with other stations and has a better chance on monetizing that niche format. Clear Channel has taken some big chances in the past, stuff the little guy could never attempt.

From a financial position, they have likely kept many stations that would have gone dark and turned in their license from that fate.

We tend to hate big because it is big. While I work for a local owner, a stand-alone, I can say there is good and bad when I look at the big boys. That can be said of small market group owners as well, but in the scheme of things they do some good we fail to recognize because of all the negative we hear. Being a big boy makes you a scape goat for no other reason than the fact you are big. People complain the big boys treat folks poorly but that complaint seems to have been very much alive before those big boys became so big...decades before.

 

[TheBigA]

People complain the big boys treat folks poorly but that complaint seems to have been very much alive before those big boys became so big...decades before.

I've mentioned this before, but the only time a check I got bounced was from a small single station owner. The big guys never send out checks that bounce. They provide more than ample benefits to their employees. In fact, quite often, the big guys provide better pay and benefits than the local owners, which is why so many people want to work for them. Sure, those jobs may only last a few years. But during that time, they get solid pay and benefits, work at competitive stations, and build their resumes for their next opportunity. I don't see any downside to that.

 

[b-turner]

I guess my horror story was at a small station that couldn't pay me enough so I accepted a trade for a place to live and a restaurant trade to get by on what they paid. After a drunk driver pulled out in front of me and my car being totaled, my boss told me I was going to a certain advertiser to buy the car they wanted me to buy or I not only didn't have a job but also no place to live or place to grab my next meal (not to mention gas as I had a gas trade since I did outside sales). I bought the car and started looking for my next gig. That was back before you had the big boys and you can bet they'd never utter such a threat.

I could have pushed the envelope. I was doing all the production and copywriting as well as the only jock while selling fulltime (can you say 14-15 hour days) not because I wanted to but because I was the only one on the staff that knew how to do it. But, even though it would have hurt them for a while to be without me, I didn't press my luck and unhappily did what the owner demanded. I have never been one to place myself in a worse situation on purpose (if the threat was real), so I took what I saw as an easier way out...buy the car and start sending out resumes, giving my notice when the next gig was secured.

 

[klutch00]

Well, maybe big corporations aren't all that bad. The fact is I see less and less innovation as time goes on and most operations look for a 'quick buck'. Many big corporations overload their asset portfolio with stations and do whatever is necessary to try to make the most amount of money in the least amount of time. I see too many marginal facilities (and by that I mean a facility which is an insignificant player in a given market), which could be put to better use with niche programming. Said material DOES NOT have to have advertising for its compensation. Donations and for-profit events can be implemented. If you doubt me, explain the following:

What would you say to a small broadcaster like Bob Bittner?

https://www.facebook.com/TheMemoriesStations/?fref=ts

What do you say to the owners of stations like WJEJ, WAVO or WHVW?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/60245300637/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/281567149384/

 

[TheBigA]

Donations and for-profit events can be implemented.

I have no problem at all with non-profit radio. I worked for one a long time ago, and found they were very passionate about what they were doing. Their audience was also very passionate, and contributed a lot of money to keep them on the air. And it's fine to have niche stations. That's why Congress reserved a portion of the FM dial for non-commercial radio. Any time anyone says to me that no one takes chances in radio, I ask them if they've ever listened to non-commercial radio. That's why earlier in this thread, I pointed out that a few commercial AMs are appealing for listener donations to support their niche formats. The only chance they have is for people to pay for them, because advertisers don't care. It may be the future of these small AMs. Because they often can reach more people than low power FMs. The bad news is that only a very small percentage of listeners actually donate. Less than 7%.

 

[gr8oldies]

Really the same with me. I got unexpectedly blown out of an independently owned 100,000 watt with a wife who was 8 months pregnant, and we were 400 miles away from home. No eeee-vil corporate broadcaster there. I did not find that Utopia some have claimed.
If you went to work at CKLW for Paul Drew in the 1970s, you had a very good chance of being blown out. Some seem to remember a broadcast industry that was the equivalent of working for General Motors in the 1950s...I'm not sure where that was. If consolidation never happened, we wouldn't be having big signals with obscure formats. We'd likely have several duplicate formats.
Here in Knoxville, in addition to the NPR/Classical station, we have WDVX, which is a popular, but niched non-com that does well. That doesn't mean donors will donate to every niche format that comes along, however.

 

[gr8oldies]

The "red circle" on Radio-Locator is almost entirely unincorporated.

But it has been also established in this thread that the signal in Knoxville itself is marginal, so for all practical purposes the station is in a small-town, unrated market (that happens to be embedded in market #71).

 

[gr8oldies]

Definitely a Randy Michaels thing; though I think it was still the Jacor days. Not only blanketing the state, but engineering a couple of move-ins (much easier to do when you can give yourself permission to interfere with yourself). That's where the "hub and spoke" system was born; with the idea of voicetracking all of their country stations in Ohio from WCOL as "Buckeye Country".

With few exceptions, the larger broadcasters are not in "small town" broadcasting.

A good example of the "why" they are not can be seen in the Clear Channel idea of blanketing Ohio with the purchase of some very small market stations. They wanted to create a "total Ohio" sales network, and even arranged with Arbitron for a state-wide ratings tabulation. It did not work, and they have been spinning off those little stations for a decade.

On the other hand, there are some large groups of predominantly smaller market stations, such as those run by different members of the Ingstad family in the Upper Midwest. In those cases, these are experienced regional broadcasters with great knowledge of the area doing what appears to be very good radio in the smaller rated markets and some unrated ones as well.

You also have CBS, which ranges in market from New York City to Palm Springs and The Victor Valley... all of these are rated markets and they have good stations in all size towns.



In some cases, those larger broadcasters that do specialty formats such as ethnic options and religious programming sustain otherwise failed stations. And they serve niche constituencies.

Beyond that, what defines a "marginal facility"?

 

[davideduardo]

The "red circle" on Radio-Locator is almost entirely unincorporated.

But it is inside the Knoxville Metro Survey Area.

 

[K.M. Richards]

The "red circle" on Radio-Locator is almost entirely unincorporated.

Well, that pretty much clinches my opinion of the situation. We pretty much know from previous discussions in other threads that the R-L approximations of coverage are generous at best, so if the "good coverage" area is covering that few people WKCE's best hope is that enough people in areas with less-than-ideal signal will like the station and support it.

I think I understand better the owner's statements in this thread about previous formats not lasting long. A daytimer news-talk station with what has to be an interference-laden signal over the largest city in the market? I'd love to know what thought process (obviously not the current guy's) went into the decision to try that.