Where's the bad news?

[Mike Walker]

People with extreme views are almost always at least a little bit wrong. Those who tell you HD is a rousing success are, charitably, a few YEARS premature. But those who say it is "dead" are, frankly, delusional. They point to OPINION pieces on blogs, Google Trends (which show a huge spike in HD the last few months...no wonder they don't mention it much anymore), and the same old lame op-eds from people who are technically illiterate, or made up their mind(s) before they even heard an HD station...IF they've heard one.

My point is this. If HD has "failed", if it's been tried and rejected, where's the bad news? Where are the dozens of stations that have tried it, declared "never again", and ripped it out? Instead, we have more new stations every week.

Where are the manufacturers who are pulling models and lines? Instead we have announcements of newer and better models, from the biggest manufacturers. When an HD model exits the market, it's not because of "failure", it's to make way for a newer, BETTER unit.

Where are the retailers who have quit carrying HD? Instead, we see new ones all the time.

Where are the stations that have dropped multicasting because "it's just not worth it, nobody cares, and this technology isn't going anywhere". Instead stations, groups, and networks are scrambling to produce more and better multicast content. Multicasting continues to grow.

Where are the disappointed consumers demanding their money back? Where are the groups who regret their investment in HD? Where the freakin' hell is the bad news?

 

[clouseau]

Where the freakin' hell is the bad news?

Ibiquity is reporting 7 new stations in the last week. That would be about 250 more stations this year.

SO that's only a 20% increase in mumber of stations. It was originally expected to double.

Is 700 new stations this year bad news?

Clouseau

 

[R.F. Burns]

And this is my point exactly. From what I observe, there are those like me who have never said that HD is a perfect system of broadcasting (and would have been just as happy to buy radios using other systems had they been available or broadcast) and then there are those who accuse anyone not in lockstep with their anti IBOC philosophy of being bought off by Ibiquity. The thought in itself is rediculous and without reason. If I've tried drawing conclusions it's because reasons for being so anti Ibiquity seem so illogical and over the top considering that this is a hobbiest message board. It's as though anyone who doesn't tow their line is a suspect and thus accused of some nepharious dealings. To the best of my knowledge most of those who don't espouse the anti IBOC retoric have freely mentioned what our background is with demos from our experiences. As to the anti IBOC people no such revelations have been made, only accusations and at least one person has said that Ibiquity is evil and that we are to believe him but he can't go any further as to why he came to this conclusion. If some honest answers were given about what Ibiquity did that was so dishonest or why we should bemoan the FCC's decision maybe we might agree. Maybe we would disagree but at least the dialogue would be less susspicious and more revelatory.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

R.F. Burns said:

To the best of my knowledge most of those who don't espouse the anti IBOC retoric have freely mentioned what our background is with demos from our experiences. As to the anti IBOC people no such revelations have been made, only accusations and at least one person has said that Ibiquity is evil and that we are to believe him but he can't go any further as to why he came to this conclusion. If some honest answers were given about what Ibiquity did that was so dishonest or why we should bemoan the FCC's decision maybe we might agree.

Many broadcast professionals, consumers, journalists and others have often stated (here and elsewhere) their dissatisfaction with HD Radio, HD's false claims, and underhanded, incestuous business relationships. You just have not been reading their posts and following their links for the full story.
It's all laid out right here on this board and from other sources, if you bother to read it. But ignorance is a bliss, of sorts.

 

[Mike Walker]

GUYS...MANY PEOPLE THINK THE ANALOG FM STEREO SYSTEM SELECTED WAS A BONE-HEADED MOVE! I'm one of 'em. It restricted coverage area, cut frequency resoponse by a half-octave or more, and made fm reception FAR MORE NOISY and distortion-prone. And ya' know what? It (analog fm stereo) was phenomenally successful. Which perfectly illustrates my point about opinion vs. reality...what people (including me in this case) THINK, vs. the lack of any "bad news"...i.e. REAL evidence that the technology is "failing".

If a different, better fm stereo system had been selected more than four decades ago, there wouldn't have been much of an impetus to replace it with a "better sounding" digital alternative in the 90s (multicasting may be the 'power app"...and I believe it it, but it was VERY late to the party...digital radio came about over a desire to cure analog sound quality issues). But so what? We are where we are. And the "good news" for HD technology continues to roll-on.

(Example of failing technology...am stations for years ripping am stereo out of their racks...as the number of am stereo stations shrinks...even though there are millions of receivers. When the numbers are going in the wrong direction...fewer stations, fewer new products, fewer retail sources, etc..., THAT is failure! HD's numbers are ALL going in the other direction)

 

[radiopilot]

Where the freakin' hell is the bad news?

Ibiquity is reporting 7 new stations in the last week. That would be about 250 more stations this year.

SO that's only a 20% increase in mumber of stations. It was originally expected to double.

Is 700 new stations this year bad news?

Clouseau

If only 7 people a week buy HD radios across the U.S. that would be 364 HD radios in the hands of consumers... GUESS WHAT I don't think that is happeing... more like 300 HD radios bought and 290 radios returned for what consumers see as 'defective' radios...YEAH HD radio is going strong!

Radio stations are the suckers here... see they are trying to avoid the excessive costs they'll incur if they don't convert now to HD... The only stations converting are from the major corporate entines CC, Cumulus, etc., show me where the small Mom & Pop stations are converting to HD..

IN FACT you've heard from several small owners of stations here on this board that have ACTUALLY told you they think HD is a SHAM and they're NOT converting!

HD Radio = 15 years too late!

Radiopilot

 

[R.F. Burns]

Where the freakin' hell is the bad news?

Ibiquity is reporting 7 new stations in the last week. That would be about 250 more stations this year.

SO that's only a 20% increase in mumber of stations. It was originally expected to double.

Is 700 new stations this year bad news?

Clouseau

If only 7 people a week buy HD radios across the U.S. that would be 364 HD radios in the hands of consumers... GUESS WHAT I don't think that is happeing... more like 300 HD radios bought and 290 radios returned for what consumers see as 'defective' radios...YEAH HD radio is going strong!

Radio stations are the suckers here... see they are trying to avoid the excessive costs they'll incur if they don't convert now to HD... The only stations converting are from the major corporate entines CC, Cumulus, etc., show me where the small Mom & Pop stations are converting to HD..

IN FACT you've heard from several small owners of stations here on this board that have ACTUALLY told you they think HD is a SHAM and they're NOT converting!

HD Radio = 15 years too late!

Radiopilot

So if you own a small station and don't want to do the IBOC conversion let me repeat, No one is forcing you to do anything. Feel free to broadcast in analog forever. It is your right. By the way, inthe latest FCC ruling on IBOC all of the anti IBOC petitions have been officially dismissed.

 

[clouseau]

If only 7 people a week buy HD radios across the U.S. that would be 364 HD radios in the hands of consumers... GUESS WHAT I don't think that is happeing...

I don't think that is what's happening either.This is another of those statements like "Arbitron data is totally wrong". It's just utter nonesense.

more like 300 HD radios bought and 290 radios returned for what consumers see as 'defective' radios...YEAH HD radio is going strong!

Your post is just flat out ludicrous. Even if we were to accept your crazy numbers IT"S STILL NUTS. If we assume the 150,000 radio number is accurate and assume your return of 290 out of 300 (Again insane) is correct that would mean there are exactly 5000 HD radios out there. 150000*.033333. This entire example is ridiculous, but it's YOUR example.

If they sold 1 radio a day (Again nuts but your number) since the first protype was sold in an electronics store as a photo op in 2004 there would be just over 1000 radios sold. You alledge this number is too high. You're just crazy here. Did you also lose the fine detail that I was referring to HD radio "STATIONS" in the post? That's right... "STATIONS". Unlike your wild allegations, they are all listed at the Ibiquity site. I live in the range of one station. It lists one station. It's not baseless garbage...

Let's assume HD radios started selling at your alledged BS rate of 1 per day.
Radio stations are the suckers here... see they are trying to avoid the excessive costs they'll incur if they don't convert now to HD... The only stations converting are from the major corporate entines CC, Cumulus, etc., show me where the small Mom & Pop stations are converting to HD..

A question. If you thought HD radio was not going to be an asset, as a station owner, why would you buy it? If it cost more later but I won't need or want it later then WHY BUY? Tower de-Icers will cost more in 2 years then they do now. However it hasn't gone below freezng where I live for 3 years. I ain't buting de-icers. Period.

IN FACT you've heard from several small owners of stations here on this board that have ACTUALLY told you they think HD is a SHAM and they're NOT converting!

Yes we have. We have also heard from virtually ALL of the major radio groups and they ARE converting. They are spending the cash. And they are doing it NOW. Some of the converts are "Haves". That is.. stations with the financial ability to convert on their own. Stations like stand alone WBEB Philadelphia, WRR Dallas, KLUX Corpus Christi, KLAQ El Paso ETC.. I know this will annoy some station owners, but it's the "Have Nots" that seem to be the most critical overall. (There ARE exceptions)

Clouseau

 

[Mike Walker]

You guys' oft cited Bridge Ratings shows nearly a half-million listeners per week to HD Radio. I think there are more than four radios a week, or 290 returned out of 300 sold. Cite your source for these "statistics", or...oh nevermind. Continue with your useful contributions here. It's pretty damn easy to see which side is threatened by the lack of bad news from the other in a long, LONG time.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

So if you own a small station and don't want to do the IBOC conversion let me repeat, No one is forcing you to do anything. Feel free to broadcast in analog forever. It is your right.

Ya know, you keep repeating this like a mantra, and you completely ignore the fact that IBOC, especially on the AM band, can easily wind up burying a small broadcaster who doesn't do the conversion in enough interference to kill his or her business. I've worked as a contract engineer for enough small stations in my career to know that a substantial number of stations outside the top 150 markets or so operate very close to the break-even point, and it doesn't take much to tip them over into the red. Losing listeners to interference which is now legal would be the final coffin nail for them. It's one thing to state that no one has to do the conversion, and even that there are demonstrably too many stations on the AM band, but since when does a person trying to operate a legitimate business deserve to be put out of business by an RF steamroller, complete with a government license, that he has no control over and did nothing to warrant?

Please get your head out of New York for a minute. The FCC, in the R&O, gave scant lip-service to small business owners. They deserve better than this.

 

[R.F. Burns]

So if you own a small station and don't want to do the IBOC conversion let me repeat, No one is forcing you to do anything. Feel free to broadcast in analog forever. It is your right.

Ya know, you keep repeating this like a mantra, and you completely ignore the fact that IBOC, especially on the AM band, can easily wind up burying a small broadcaster who doesn't do the conversion in enough interference to kill his or her business. I've worked as a contract engineer for enough small stations in my career to know that a substantial number of stations outside the top 150 markets or so operate very close to the break-even point, and it doesn't take much to tip them over into the red. Losing listeners to interference which is now legal would be the final coffin nail for them. It's one thing to state that no one has to do the conversion, and even that there are demonstrably too many stations on the AM band, but since when does a person trying to operate a legitimate business deserve to be put out of business by an RF steamroller, complete with a government license, that he has no control over and did nothing to warrant?

Please get your head out of New York for a minute. The FCC, in the R&O, gave scant lip-service to small business owners. They deserve better than this.

I do feel sorry for small owners who suffer from all sorts of business handicaps but unless their being interfered with within their protected contour there isn't much legally they can do about it. They will suffer the same fate as many people who run a small business and go under. There's no way to say that and not sound harsh but that is the reality of the world. How many companies go under every day? As to being NY centric, all I can say is that it is the largest market which means that there are more citizens living here who will be effected by what happens to the AM and FM band then any single place in the country and that is where I live. I just came back from a trip to central NY where you can't hear the NY stations during the day and the AM & FM bands were quiet but, on the trip up I had no trouble hearing stations which operate on the first adjacents of the big NY stations with and there was interference or trouble hearing their signal without any IBOC interference. For instance since WNYC has been moved to 820 I no longer can listen to WGY in my area. That has nothing to do with IBOC and the same is true for 1160 where I could hear KSL most nights until a full time 1160 started up in NJ.

 

[R.F. Burns]

So if you own a small station and don't want to do the IBOC conversion let me repeat, No one is forcing you to do anything. Feel free to broadcast in analog forever. It is your right.

Ya know, you keep repeating this like a mantra, and you completely ignore the fact that IBOC, especially on the AM band, can easily wind up burying a small broadcaster who doesn't do the conversion in enough interference to kill his or her business. I've worked as a contract engineer for enough small stations in my career to know that a substantial number of stations outside the top 150 markets or so operate very close to the break-even point, and it doesn't take much to tip them over into the red. Losing listeners to interference which is now legal would be the final coffin nail for them. It's one thing to state that no one has to do the conversion, and even that there are demonstrably too many stations on the AM band, but since when does a person trying to operate a legitimate business deserve to be put out of business by an RF steamroller, complete with a government license, that he has no control over and did nothing to warrant?

Please get your head out of New York for a minute. The FCC, in the R&O, gave scant lip-service to small business owners. They deserve better than this.

I do feel sorry for small owners who suffer from all sorts of business handicaps but unless their being interfered with within their protected contour there isn't much legally they can do about it. They will suffer the same fate as many people who run a small business and go under. There's no way to say that and not sound harsh but that is the reality of the world. How many companies go under every day? As to being NY centric, all I can say is that it is the largest market which means that there are more citizens living here who will be effected by what happens to the AM and FM band then any single place in the country and that is where I live. I just came back from a trip to central NY where you can't hear the NY stations during the day and the AM & FM bands were quiet but, on the trip up I had no trouble hearing stations which operate on the first adjacents of the big NY stations with and there was interference or trouble hearing their signal without any IBOC interference. For instance since WNYC has been moved to 820 I no longer can listen to WGY in my area. That has nothing to do with IBOC and the same is true for 1160 where I could hear KSL most nights until a full time 1160 started up in NJ.

Before someone thinks they found something make that NO interference caused by the NY IBOC station. For instance I am 150 miles or so from 50 KW WGY which runs IBOC and they cause no interference to either WNYC(810) or WLAD (800)at my location.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

unless their being interfered with within their protected contour there isn't much legally they can do about it. They will suffer the same fate as many people who run a small business and go under.

Wait until July, when nighttime AM-IBOC goes into effect. Given the number of documented cases of daytime IBOC interference, within the protected contours of the stations being interfered with, already on the record, come July the Enforcement Bureau is going to be bogged down with complaints. You can keep claiming it's a harsh reality, but try telling that to the station owner who did nothing to warrant it except running his business.

 

[Mike Walker]

I am VERY cusious what will happen (when AM HD fires up at night on a large scale). Not too long from now we should all have some practical experiences to relate.

 

[calstymes]

R.F. Burns suggested:

If I've tried drawing conclusions it's because reasons for being so anti Ibiquity seem so illogical and over the top considering that this is a hobbiest message board.

I thought you were a pro. If this is a message board for hobbyists then how come you participate on it?

clouseau asked:

If you thought HD radio was not going to be an asset, as a station owner, why would you buy it?

In the case of several AM stations in the larger corporate groups, their management is being forced to install IBOC, regardless of whether or not they think it will be beneficial or an asset to their bottom line. These are corporate groups which have contracts with iBiquity that must be honored.

In many of these cases, if it were up to management at the station level, IBOC would not be a priority.

Go ahead R.F., ask some of those station managers you know in the nation's #1 market. But make sure your conversation is off the record, because believe me, they will not go against their corporate senior management unless they can be sure their comments will not be released for public consumption.

Mike Walker bemused:

I am VERY cusious what will happen (when AM HD fires up at night on a large scale). Not too long from now we should all have some practical experiences to relate.

Oh yes, we certainly will! It won't be long now.

 

[Mike Walker]

News flash: Management will never be the final word on what happens in ANY business. That belongs to THE OWNERS! If an owner wants all their stations to have green control rooms, THEY WILL. If they want all thier stations to broadcast in HD, well...

Frankly if you manage one of my stations, and your goals for it, and philosophies regarding it's operation, are very different from mine, guess who will win?

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Before someone thinks they found something make that NO interference caused by the NY IBOC station. For instance I am 150 miles or so from 50 KW WGY which runs IBOC and they cause no interference to either WNYC(810) or WLAD (800)at my location.

I am 6.4 miles from the WRKO/680 transmitter in suburban Boston and I can hear, clear as a bell, the IBOC carriers from WFAN/660 at my house on every AM radio I own. When sunset comes, the interference vanishes.

The FCC has no idea what they've set themselves up for by authorizing HD at night.

 

[Tom Wells]

Before someone thinks they found something make that NO interference caused by the NY IBOC station. For instance I am 150 miles or so from 50 KW WGY which runs IBOC and they cause no interference to either WNYC(810) or WLAD (800)at my location.

I am 6.4 miles from the WRKO/680 transmitter in suburban Boston and I can hear, clear as a bell, the IBOC carriers from WFAN/660 at my house on every AM radio I own. When sunset comes, the interference vanishes.

The FCC has no idea what they've set themselves up for by authorizing HD at night.

PLEASE Post a recording of this! This is exactly the instance needed to show why this concept is unworkable on AM.

It clearly demonstrates that by orders of magnitudes of listeners must now suffer hiss to several stations, outnumbering the few
HD signal listeners of the polluting square wavers. But this far greater listener base must now suffer for the sake of
having a MODEM ( a @^#$ ! Modem? @#$$ how st#$id ) on the Broadcast Band?

This the same as the melamine in the food supply, an impurity that must not be tolerated, much less adopted as "standard'.

Get it out of the AM.

Please read modulation theory and see why square wave modulation, even at "low" data rates, must make wideband hash.

I try to listen to WGN, WBBM and WLS, but the head cold and hiss they all share now more or less makes me turn it down again
as soon as I've gleaned info or wx I wanted.

The audio is just really too awful for me to tolerate. It reminds me of radio blackout days with solar flares and geomagnetic storms.
The radio seems broken, and as I've re-engineered many AM radios to hi-fidelity, I find all such regressive steps deplorable.


I am dreaming up a way to filter the analog, then generating fake overtones to restore the lost defintion.
Maybe even a variably-biased amp to add raspies.


Boston is how many miles from New York?
You must be in the primary service area....I would think.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

PLEASE Post a recording of this! This is exactly the instance needed to show why this concept is unworkable on AM.

I haven't had an AM radio I could record from in what seems like eons. If I can finagle something I certainly will post it.

Boston is how many miles from New York? You must be in the primary service area....I would think.

The two transmitter sites are (by FCC calcuation) 174 miles apart. My house is in one of WRKO's major lobes, nowhere near a null.

 

[clouseau]

The two transmitter sites are (by FCC calcuation) 174 miles apart. My house is in one of WRKO's major lobes, nowhere near a null.

OK. I'm NOT trying to tell you what you claim is happpening... actually "IS" or "IS NOT" happening. But let me get the facts straight.

A 50KW station 2nd adjacent causes no interference.

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WFAN&service=AM&status=L&hours=U

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WRKO&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

A (1/100th power) .5 KW (AKA 500 watts) "First adjacent" is causing major problems. (The digital power)....

You're telling us that a 500 watt 1st adjacent station is causing interference on a 50 KW station at 6.4 miles when you are 174 Miles away???

(Carefully crafted response...) That's peculiar. Because there is clearly more 1st adjacent interference going on here...

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KSIX&service=AM&status=C&hours=D

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KSOX&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

Than in your locale. I'm seeing "Fringes on First adjacents" overlapping here. WRKO and WFAN are MUCH furthur spaced.

Now I get that the high end of the AM band is tighter than the low end. But how is this possible?

I'm not saying your situation "CAN't Happen. Just that it's darned weird.

How about this one???

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KUNO&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KNAL&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

Another "1st adjacent"- "No Sweat"

How is it so bad in New England? Is it the water???

BTW this "Second" example is all over Max ground conductivity.

Seriously. How can this be?

Clouseau