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WHIC move

S

scooterodell

Guest
For AM radio transmission experts out there:

As noted on fybush.com earlier this week, WHIC has a proposal in to the FCC to move just down the road and share a tower site with WROC. Part of the proposal involves a reduction in power, but the coverage is supposed to remain the same. I've looked at the proposal at fcc.gov, and the before/after coverage maps look nearly identical. How does that work? What is it about the new site that allows the same coverage with lower power?

Coverage map URL:
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=341651

Application URL:
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/...ext=25&appn=101087255&formid=301&fac_num=6641
 
> Part of the proposal involves a
> reduction in power, but the coverage is supposed to remain
> the same. I've looked at the proposal at fcc.gov, and the
> before/after coverage maps look nearly identical. How does
> that work? What is it about the new site that allows the
> same coverage with lower power?

Could be one of three things...either ground conductivity at the new site is more favorable, the ground system at the site is more efficient and/or in better shape, or the antenna system they're planning to use is more efficient when operated on 1460. Or maybe a combination of all of the above. All those factors affect how much actual field strength you get from your ground-wave signal at a given power. A bad antenna or ground system can mean you need twice as much power to get the coverage area you want, as a well designed and well maintained system on the same frequency will give you.

The system built by Gannett back in 1947 for the old WHEC on 1460 over on Winton Road was a technical compromise from the getgo, the least efficient of the 5,000 watt plants that went up south of the city in the postwar era. (WXXI and WHTK were significantly better engineered when they came on line, 'XXI in 1946 and 'HTK's current plant in the early 1960s, a little south of their original 1947 site.) Later owners of the 1460 facility weren't exactly diligent when it came to things like ground system maintenance. So the plant deteriorated and so did signal quality. It's therefore no surprise that a move to a different location might let them maintain signal coverage with a little less power.
 
Re: WAXC & WBBF, Them Was The Days

>
> The system built by Gannett back in 1947 for the old WHEC on
> 1460 over on Winton Road was a technical compromise from the
> getgo, the least efficient of the 5,000 watt plants that
> went up south of the city in the postwar era. (WXXI and WHTK
> were significantly better engineered when they came on line,
> 'XXI in 1946 and 'HTK's current plant in the early 1960s, a
> little south of their original 1947 site.) Later owners of
> the 1460 facility weren't exactly diligent when it came to
> things like ground system maintenance. So the plant
> deteriorated and so did signal quality. It's therefore no
> surprise that a move to a different location might let them
> maintain signal coverage with a little less power.
>

Good background points.

Yet, I'd like to read more from Rochester posters who can elaborate on the legendary Top 40 battles between once market dominant, yet signal deficient WBBF and more the powerful challenger WAXC.

So give it up, Mssrs. Fybush, Smith, et alia: Details and personal recollections please. Give us Buffalo folks some play by play and color on this very interesting part of Rochester's past. Personalities, promotions, music, concerts... the down-low, the 4-1-1... the dirt.

Curious, isn't it, that 30-35 years after these stations went after each other tooth and nail, they're combining their transmitter plants. That wouldn't have happened back in the day. But then again... WGR and WKBW share(d) a transmitter site when they were flailing away at each other when the Buffalo AM band was still vibrant and attracted more than 50% of the available listeners.
 
Re: WAXC & WBBF, Them Was The Days

> >
> Recollections from my youth: WBBF's evening guy - Mr. Lee, Leon Marguerite (sp?), who's trademark line was that he played music for "Mom, Dad, sister Sue, Brother Lou and Junior, too"; also Ferdinand J. Smith, before he was selling Buicks, Wegmans, et al with his ad agency; afternoons with the Old Professor, Nick Nickson taking call-in votes for the day's top 10 that he would play between 6 and 7 PM; Lanny Frattare, Jessica Savitch during the day; Jack Palvino in the morning. Those really were the good ol' days...
 
Re: WAXC & WBBF, Them Was The Days

>> Good background points.
>
> Yet, I'd like to read more from Rochester posters who can
> elaborate on the legendary Top 40 battles between once
> market dominant, yet signal deficient WBBF and more the
> powerful challenger WAXC.

For a while between 1972 and 1975, WAXC was actually getting the upper hand. It was crisp, fresh, had a better sound and some of the most dynamic personalities in the area (Greaseman, Tom Birch). BBF really only had Jack Palvino's morning show as an ace to play back in the early 1970s; a lot of its other great personalities from earlier days (Nick Nickson, Joe Deane, Ferdinand J., Lanny Frattare, Tom George) had left the local airwaves and either moved on to other business interests or moved to other markets.

What got WBBF back in the game, and made it a winner once more after mid-1975, was a combination of 'BBF remaking itself, and WAXC's ownership falling into turmoil.

First the BBF change; ex-top 40 jock Dan Clayton became general manager (he was the first 'BBF general manager who'd ever actually worked the format) and brought in Mark Driscoll as PD. Driscoll was cutting-edge in terms of formatics, personalities (Jack Palvino was the only holdover from prior lineups by the time Driscoll had remade the place) and music selection, and he got the town talking and listening again for the first time in years.
They then tied up the promo rights for major concerts other than the hard rock and metal acts WCMF was backing; concert promotion was something WAXC had never been all that serious about.

But WAXC's ownership turmoil probably hurt that station more than anything. Co-owner Paul Dean, a local securities trader, got himself in some very hot water over some municipal bond trades, wound up indicted, and ultimately went to jail. While that case was making its way through the courts WAXC's ownership group just about had to sell---the license might have been endangered if they had not found a new owner before a final verdict. It took a while, leaving everything at WAXC pretty much frozen right at the moment WBBF was retooling itself and fighting back. To make matters worse, the station actually softened its music mix and formatics in response to 'BBF's challenge and went more in a hot AC direction in 1976 and early 1977, blowing off much of its 12-24 strength without picking up much 25+. Then came the sale to Brandon Radio. I was on WAXC's news staff at the time PD Greg Schaeffer, who was brought in from WNDE in Indianapolis, made one last try to bring the station back to its old top 40 glory with yet another newer and younger staff. It actually began to work. The fall '77 book indicated we were making progress, and some private research we'd commissioned indicated our spring '78 book would have been quite strong if we'd stayed the course. But GM Tony Brandon's dad, who was bankrolling the whole thing, hated CHR and said to Tony, if he wanted continued financial backing, he'd have to soften it up, change the callsign and go directly after WHAM. So, before the 1978 spring book, WAXC died, 3WG was born, and it spent two years in a futile chase of WHAM's audience before giving up the fight and finding the Lord.

I was already gone by the time WWWG was officially born, though we all knew it was coming; when we all got word that the format change was coming, the news crew joined the jocks in moving on, even though they asked the news staff to stay on (Ann Kellan went to Channel 13, Forest Lewis stayed a little while but soon moved to channel 8, and I went down the Thruway to join Jeff Kaye's morning show at WBEN).

Would we have had long term success if WAXC had stayed alive as a personality uptempo CHR station? I don't know. I think we'd have hung in there as a viable player in the market for another four or five years. Once we were gone, WBBF didn't have another serious CHR challenger until 98PXY emerged on the FM band in 1982. We were starting to do some damage to 'BBF once again in late 1977 and if the trend had continued in the same direction, we might have regained format dominance by the end of 1978 and kept it through the early 1980s. But the writing was on the wall for AM CHR stations. The moment a strong FM challenger with full market coverage emerged, we'd have been a goner, just as 'BBF turned out to be (it went to talk within 18 months of 'PXY's arrival). That's how the times were everywhere. Hell, even the mighty WABC was packing it in during the spring of 1982. 'KB in Buffalo and WLS in Chicago lasted into the late 1980s as hit music stations, but they were aberrations in the broadcasting business by the time they finally shut their turntables down in 1988-89.

> Curious, isn't it, that 30-35 years after these stations
> went after each other tooth and nail, they're combining
> their transmitter plants. That wouldn't have happened back
> in the day. But then again... WGR and WKBW share(d) a
> transmitter site when they were flailing away at each other
> when the Buffalo AM band was still vibrant and attracted
> more than 50% of the available listeners.

Those were the days, my friend...we thought they'd never end...
:(
 
Them Days Are Gone Forever.

Bob Smith went down memory lane with his elegant remembrance of what it was like at the former WAXC radio back in the 1970s. Bob’s ending comments were quite appropriate. “Those were the days my friends …we thought they never end.” Well, as we all know, they did.

The “Good Ole Days” for me was working for Malrite at their Rochester stations, WNYR-WEZO in the early 1980s. Two general managers that made working there enjoyable were Murray Green and Len Hart. Both men had the formula for running a successful operation. They treated the staff with respect and rewarded ALL their employees with decent raises and other benefits. The staff at WNYR-WEZO would have walked on glass for these two men.

As the saying goes, nothing good lasts forever, and for WNYR-WEZO the good times came to an end when deregulation first reared its ugly head under the Reagan Administration.

Malrite sold the stations to Grace Broadcasting. Grace wasn’t a bad organization, but unfortunately the owner wanted a seat on the Securities and Exchange Commission, so he ended up selling the stations to this “idiot” who had no concept how to run a radio operation. He bled WNYR-WEZO dry in order to keep his other, less profitable, stations from drowning in a sea of red ink.

Meanwhile Mr. Hart ended up getting fired, thanks to an overbearing, self-centered, half-ass sales manager who stabbed Mr. Hart in the back and took his job.

I remember how this new GM lamented at every meeting how we, the department heads, had to cut our budgets, while she went out and got herself a new Lincoln Continental and had a swimming pool installed at her house, thanks to trade deals she made. This individual finally got the ax. Now I understand that this same incompetent is a top executive with Entercom. That must an interesting company to work for if it consider her top-grade management material.

Well it got even worse after “Vampira” was shown the front door. With the exception of one decent fellow that became GM, the stations went through a series of owners, format changes and program directors over the next several years. What resulted was the abandonment of their AM station, which had a decent news department and audience, and the lame attempt by their FM station to go after the then number one radio station in Rochester by switching to the same format as their competition. Mind you the competition had millions to spend on advertising while WEZO, later changed to WARM 101.3, had zip.

What is ironic is that today WARM is now the dominant station while WVOR, or as it’s now known as “The Mix” languishes in the ratings.

Well to wrap up this little sermon of mine I was just trying to point out that over the past 20 years a number of great radio stations have met the same fate as WAXC, WBBF, WNYR and WEZO. And what is sad is that it didn’t have to happen.

The time is already here where radio will reap what it has sown. Overall listenership is down as younger people have abandoned terrestrial radio and are getting their music from the internet, or downloading it from other sources. And many people are just turning off the radio altogether or trying out satellite radio as an alternative to countless commercials per hour and homogenized programming.

Seeing what is going on in radio today is like watching a person eating a bowl of poisoned food. Knowing it may eventually kill them, but they continue to eat it anyways.

<P ID="signature">______________
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them".</P>
 
Re: WAXC & WBBF, Them Was The Days

> > >
> > Recollections from my youth: WBBF's evening guy - Mr. Lee,
> Leon Marguerite (sp?), who's trademark line was that he
> played music for "Mom, Dad, sister Sue, Brother Lou and
> Junior, too"; also Ferdinand J. Smith, before he was selling
> Buicks, Wegmans, et al with his ad agency; afternoons with
> the Old Professor, Nick Nickson taking call-in votes for the
> day's top 10 that he would play between 6 and 7 PM; Lanny
> Frattare, Jessica Savitch during the day; Jack Palvino in
> the morning. Those really were the good ol' days...
>

Interesting. Growing up in Canandaigua THE station that we all listened to was not WBBF nor WAXC, it was WSAY. Yeah, go ahead and laugh, but we suffered through the various shapes & sizes of Jerry Jack, Mike Melody, Tommy Thomas et al. Some of them weren't all THAT bad either, and by Gawd they played the music! With no commercials except the odd PSA from time to time. ... Those were the days!
 
Re: WAXC & WBBF, Them Was The Days

>
> Interesting. Growing up in Canandaigua THE station that we
> all listened to was not WBBF nor WAXC, it was WSAY. Yeah, go
> ahead and laugh, but we suffered through the various shapes
> & sizes of Jerry Jack, Mike Melody, Tommy Thomas et al. Some
> of them weren't all THAT bad either, and by Gawd they played
> the music! With no commercials except the odd PSA from time
> to time. ... Those were the days!
>
Be big, be a builder! Yeah, we heard that on the mighty WNIA, Cheektowaga. Gordon Brown... he tossed nickels around like they were manhole covers.
 
Re: WAXC & WBBF, Them Was The Days

> Those were the days, my friend...we thought they'd never
> end...
> :(
>
A worthy recollection, Bob. Thanks for the Rochester history. Amazing how things unfolded in the 70's; over a period of maybe seven or eight years, stations took off like shooting stars, only to crash and burn as competition from other AM's and stations on the newly-discovered FM band changed the landscape.

In Buffalo, The Super Q [97 'GRQ] gave KB a run for the teens; WYSL-FM, WPHD took the 18-34s and later, Q-FM-97 ate up a massive chunk of 12-34s.

Big wheel keeps on turnin'.
 
Re: WAXC & WBBF, Them Was The Days

> > >
> > Recollections from my youth: WBBF's evening guy - Mr. Lee,
> Leon Marguerite (sp?), who's trademark line was that he
> played music for "Mom, Dad, sister Sue, Brother Lou and
> Junior, too"; also Ferdinand J. Smith, before he was selling
> Buicks, Wegmans, et al with his ad agency; afternoons with
> the Old Professor, Nick Nickson taking call-in votes for the
> day's top 10 that he would play between 6 and 7 PM; Lanny
> Frattare, Jessica Savitch during the day; Jack Palvino in
> the morning. Those really were the good ol' days...
>


Wait a minute.....does that mean I'm too old if I remember the mighty emperor Jerry Fogel (before "The Mothers In Law") and Larry White with you all night?

Great info from Bob on what happened to WAXC/WWWG. Never knew what happened there.

Tom
 
Re: WAXC & WBBF, Them Was The Days

> Wait a minute.....does that mean I'm too old if I remember
> the mighty emperor Jerry Fogel (before "The Mothers In Law")
> and Larry White with you all night?
>
> Great info from Bob on what happened to WAXC/WWWG. Never
> knew what happened there.
>
> Tom


Hey Tom, thanks for remembering!
 
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