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WHIO FM ????
- Thread starter Kahuna1
- Start date
B
BehindTheLines
Guest
Wow!
I've said they should do this for years!
I've said they should do this for years!
G
GaryTheThompson
Guest
The last song played on the point was Simple Minds' "Don't You Forget About Me."
E
Engineers_Rule
Guest
My 0.02
They are using that 50KW signal for this? Lets look at WHIO's directional pattern.....at night a BOATLOAD of the signal shoots due north.....right where 95.7 is. If they wanted to better fill the "holes", they should have put it on 95.3 to cover the gaps in Clark, and especially Greene Co.....Bellbrook for example, gets a miniscule signal in directional.
Don't even get me started on building penetration.
No one ever accused the current regime over there of looking for work at NASA.
ER
They are using that 50KW signal for this? Lets look at WHIO's directional pattern.....at night a BOATLOAD of the signal shoots due north.....right where 95.7 is. If they wanted to better fill the "holes", they should have put it on 95.3 to cover the gaps in Clark, and especially Greene Co.....Bellbrook for example, gets a miniscule signal in directional.
Don't even get me started on building penetration.
No one ever accused the current regime over there of looking for work at NASA.
ER
C
Clemwriter
Guest
Ohio radio man said:
It seems to me that there were better options for 95.7 than a simulcast. Is this somehow in response to the pending flip at 96.5?
Phil: Here are some facts
You can look at "theoretical" directional patterns on radio boards, or FCC apps from
50 years ago all you want, but...have you actually driven the WHIO nighttime pattern lately? Many AM stations that were licensed as "regionals" today have nighttime signals that are about a third of what they were in the 1950's...thank you, FCC!
Fact: 95-7 has city grade coverage over much of Clark County, including Springfield. 95-3 has no city grade over Clark County.
Fact: the WHIO-AM signal in Miami County has been poor for years. It's virtually non-existant when you get north of Piqua.
Fact: without revealing anything, I can tell you the appetite for newstalk in Clark and Miami Counties is huge.
Fact: Clear Channel realizes this was a great move from what we hear.
Fact: The WHIO AM/FM combo covers all 5 metro county and now, the additional northern counties in the TSA. In the end, this should prove to have been a great move.
You can look at "theoretical" directional patterns on radio boards, or FCC apps from
50 years ago all you want, but...have you actually driven the WHIO nighttime pattern lately? Many AM stations that were licensed as "regionals" today have nighttime signals that are about a third of what they were in the 1950's...thank you, FCC!
Fact: 95-7 has city grade coverage over much of Clark County, including Springfield. 95-3 has no city grade over Clark County.
Fact: the WHIO-AM signal in Miami County has been poor for years. It's virtually non-existant when you get north of Piqua.
Fact: without revealing anything, I can tell you the appetite for newstalk in Clark and Miami Counties is huge.
Fact: Clear Channel realizes this was a great move from what we hear.
Fact: The WHIO AM/FM combo covers all 5 metro county and now, the additional northern counties in the TSA. In the end, this should prove to have been a great move.
Kevin, er I mean Nick, ah, OK Kevin....
Does this mean that you'll market, promote and or sell to these counties that have a huge appetite for the News/Talk format? In the past, it seems that they have been ignored when they couldn't pony up the same rates that you were getting in the Big 3. Don't get me wrong, I think that this is a brilliant move (and if it was your idea, congrats) the AM night pattern is a killer if you're driving anywhere to the east outside the 675 loop. Because of poor signals, my daily commute to Columbus has caused me to surrender to Sirius just to be able to listen to one thing all the way to
C-Bus. I'm looking forward to a little local news Monday morning, Ill let you know how far I carry the signal.
MR
Does this mean that you'll market, promote and or sell to these counties that have a huge appetite for the News/Talk format? In the past, it seems that they have been ignored when they couldn't pony up the same rates that you were getting in the Big 3. Don't get me wrong, I think that this is a brilliant move (and if it was your idea, congrats) the AM night pattern is a killer if you're driving anywhere to the east outside the 675 loop. Because of poor signals, my daily commute to Columbus has caused me to surrender to Sirius just to be able to listen to one thing all the way to
C-Bus. I'm looking forward to a little local news Monday morning, Ill let you know how far I carry the signal.
MR
E
Engineers_Rule
Guest
1 I didn't say it was a bad idea. I just question the the actual stick used, but since you appear to want to flame.....
"You can look at "theoretical" directional patterns on radio boards, or FCC apps from
50 years ago all you want, but...have you actually driven the WHIO nighttime pattern lately? Many AM stations that were licensed as "regionals" today have nighttime signals that are about a third of what they were in the 1950's...thank you, FCC! "
2 I ran a skeleton proof of performance on this array in 2004....have you?
3 I drove the trip from Dayton to the cornfield in Lockington for 3 years once a week, and listened to the AM.....have you?
4 I had access to proof-of performance data running back to the 1950's. These were actual measruements, not "theoretical" numbers
5 The 3 tower inline array is extremely stable. The 1290 pattern CAN be done with 2 towers, but would require constant adjustment. The phasor cabinet on this array almost NEVER needed adjustment. If the present nightime pattern is "not the same" as it was as recently as the 2004 skeleton proof, then someone has been messing around with the pattern, and the array is possibly mistuned. When is the last time you took monitoring points? I have taken monitoring points on this array monthly in the past
"Fact: the WHIO-AM signal in Miami County has been poor for years. It's virtually non-existant when you get north of Piqua."
1 I say again, if this is true now in 2006, someone needs to do a skeleton, or better yet, a full proof of performance on this array to get it back where it belongs, or perhaps you need a new radio.
"You can look at "theoretical" directional patterns on radio boards, or FCC apps from
50 years ago all you want, but...have you actually driven the WHIO nighttime pattern lately? Many AM stations that were licensed as "regionals" today have nighttime signals that are about a third of what they were in the 1950's...thank you, FCC! "
2 I ran a skeleton proof of performance on this array in 2004....have you?
3 I drove the trip from Dayton to the cornfield in Lockington for 3 years once a week, and listened to the AM.....have you?
4 I had access to proof-of performance data running back to the 1950's. These were actual measruements, not "theoretical" numbers
5 The 3 tower inline array is extremely stable. The 1290 pattern CAN be done with 2 towers, but would require constant adjustment. The phasor cabinet on this array almost NEVER needed adjustment. If the present nightime pattern is "not the same" as it was as recently as the 2004 skeleton proof, then someone has been messing around with the pattern, and the array is possibly mistuned. When is the last time you took monitoring points? I have taken monitoring points on this array monthly in the past
"Fact: the WHIO-AM signal in Miami County has been poor for years. It's virtually non-existant when you get north of Piqua."
1 I say again, if this is true now in 2006, someone needs to do a skeleton, or better yet, a full proof of performance on this array to get it back where it belongs, or perhaps you need a new radio.
Phil & Kahuna:
No intent to "flame" in my last post. But, certainly you realize, good engineer that you are, that the average listener doesn't take monitoring points, nor does the average listener have more than the "average" car radio receiver. They only care about what they hear. And, that's where the problem lies...and the opportunity exists.
I did an appearance for 1290 one afternoon drive near the Piqua Mall about 6 months or so ago. The over the air signal was so bad on the receiver supplied to me that we had to use the station's internet stream for monitoring.
Add to it the continual problems the station faces from RTA lines downtown.
There's nothing we can do about this interference...but in many places near trolley lines, 1290 is unreadable. (Try this under the trolley lines near Patterson & Waterveliet Ave.)
I did a remote at a carryout on North Main Street near Shoup Mill Road about a year ago. Same problem. Terrible signal reception.
Could this be the ground system? Maybe, but it's been checked out (not from local engineering), and we're told it's ok.
AM faces many problems. The biggest is the added interference that was federally mandated over the past 25 or 30 years. The second biggest is that AM receivers are cheap. You know that and I know that. If it's a $350 car stereo, the manufacturer probably spends about 29 cents on the AM receiver (if that). They simply are nowhere near as good as they used to be. (Unless you really look for one which most people don't.)
Even if the AM signal could, through a new ground system or whatever, be returned to the signal it had in the 60's, chances are it wouldn't bring the audience that would come to an FM signal. WHIO could use a hand to the north...95-7 can provide it. Makes sense to me.
Kahuna: Nice guess, but I'm not Nick. If you check my posts on the other boards, you can pretty easily figure out who I am.
No intent to "flame" in my last post. But, certainly you realize, good engineer that you are, that the average listener doesn't take monitoring points, nor does the average listener have more than the "average" car radio receiver. They only care about what they hear. And, that's where the problem lies...and the opportunity exists.
I did an appearance for 1290 one afternoon drive near the Piqua Mall about 6 months or so ago. The over the air signal was so bad on the receiver supplied to me that we had to use the station's internet stream for monitoring.
Add to it the continual problems the station faces from RTA lines downtown.
There's nothing we can do about this interference...but in many places near trolley lines, 1290 is unreadable. (Try this under the trolley lines near Patterson & Waterveliet Ave.)
I did a remote at a carryout on North Main Street near Shoup Mill Road about a year ago. Same problem. Terrible signal reception.
Could this be the ground system? Maybe, but it's been checked out (not from local engineering), and we're told it's ok.
AM faces many problems. The biggest is the added interference that was federally mandated over the past 25 or 30 years. The second biggest is that AM receivers are cheap. You know that and I know that. If it's a $350 car stereo, the manufacturer probably spends about 29 cents on the AM receiver (if that). They simply are nowhere near as good as they used to be. (Unless you really look for one which most people don't.)
Even if the AM signal could, through a new ground system or whatever, be returned to the signal it had in the 60's, chances are it wouldn't bring the audience that would come to an FM signal. WHIO could use a hand to the north...95-7 can provide it. Makes sense to me.
Kahuna: Nice guess, but I'm not Nick. If you check my posts on the other boards, you can pretty easily figure out who I am.
E
Engineers_Rule
Guest
I apologize for accusing you of possible "flaming".
I would not suspect the ground system. If it were the ground system, the impedance of the array at night (70 ohms j0) would drift, and the Harris transmitter would go ape.
No doubt AM faces many issues with man-made interference that did not exist in 1950. I live about 75 yards from tolley lines. However, standing near a concrete building (Miami Valley Center Mall) full of flourecent lights, and fed with 3 phase electricity is a lot different from being in a house in Miami County, and trying to receive the signal.
However, looking at the directional pattern indicates (to ME anyway) the more efficient use of resources would have been to use 95.3, which is stronger in known pattern nulls, such as Bellbrook, by Wal-Mart / Kohls in Greene County. The buildup since 675 went in has reduced the already miniscule signal there even more. WHIO protects WTKS in Savannah, GA (a station I installed NexGen in), and that is why the signal is bad in Bellbrook. I see that area growing faster than Clark Co.
Note the lack of 1290's signal in Warren County just south of the Dayton Mall at night.. Sure you can hear 95.7 there, but try to hear it on a boom box. 95.3 is a stronger signal there. Were I a Cadillac dealer, I would rather sell Caddys in a growth county, like northern Warren, one of the fastest growing counties in the USA, than Clark. No matter what Arbitron says, northern Warren County is still considered a Dayton suburb by those who live there. Who cares about Butler Co. (Middletown)? Who cares about Lima? Who cares about Columbus? All cities I heard on the newscast about this big change.
There is a null in Kettering near the Dayton Country Club. I am sure 95.3 would fill that null WAY better than 95.7.....and thats in the METRO.
95.7 could have been used to better compete with the Eagle, or better yet, the original ZLR format on a full 50Kw Class B signal, instead of the directionally crippled Class A on 95.3 It seems to me the whole idea of the simulcast would be to INCREASE, rather than DUPLICATE EXISTING coverage for 1290.
Anyone can "Monday Morning Quarterback". All I stated originally was an opinion. My name isn't on the license.
ER
I would not suspect the ground system. If it were the ground system, the impedance of the array at night (70 ohms j0) would drift, and the Harris transmitter would go ape.
No doubt AM faces many issues with man-made interference that did not exist in 1950. I live about 75 yards from tolley lines. However, standing near a concrete building (Miami Valley Center Mall) full of flourecent lights, and fed with 3 phase electricity is a lot different from being in a house in Miami County, and trying to receive the signal.
However, looking at the directional pattern indicates (to ME anyway) the more efficient use of resources would have been to use 95.3, which is stronger in known pattern nulls, such as Bellbrook, by Wal-Mart / Kohls in Greene County. The buildup since 675 went in has reduced the already miniscule signal there even more. WHIO protects WTKS in Savannah, GA (a station I installed NexGen in), and that is why the signal is bad in Bellbrook. I see that area growing faster than Clark Co.
Note the lack of 1290's signal in Warren County just south of the Dayton Mall at night.. Sure you can hear 95.7 there, but try to hear it on a boom box. 95.3 is a stronger signal there. Were I a Cadillac dealer, I would rather sell Caddys in a growth county, like northern Warren, one of the fastest growing counties in the USA, than Clark. No matter what Arbitron says, northern Warren County is still considered a Dayton suburb by those who live there. Who cares about Butler Co. (Middletown)? Who cares about Lima? Who cares about Columbus? All cities I heard on the newscast about this big change.
There is a null in Kettering near the Dayton Country Club. I am sure 95.3 would fill that null WAY better than 95.7.....and thats in the METRO.
95.7 could have been used to better compete with the Eagle, or better yet, the original ZLR format on a full 50Kw Class B signal, instead of the directionally crippled Class A on 95.3 It seems to me the whole idea of the simulcast would be to INCREASE, rather than DUPLICATE EXISTING coverage for 1290.
Anyone can "Monday Morning Quarterback". All I stated originally was an opinion. My name isn't on the license.
ER
G
GaryTheThompson
Guest
KevinFodor said:
I work with Kevin...and I can guarantee he's not Nick.
Although they're both snappy dressers.
2 cents worth on the AM pattern from spending a lot of time and eventually living in Troy from 2002-2004. Nights and early mornings were definately a problem, and often I struggled to hear the Morning News there. Not only was there the usual interference, some of WHIO's channel-mates were on daytime power and/or pattern 24/7 when they weren't supposed to be. This was particularly true of WCBL in Benton, KY. More recently in Springfield I've been hearing a Radio Disney affiliate over or under WHIO in the 5am hour. Peoria was also often strong in Miami County. Good move or not? Who knows?
K
kirkiefan
Guest
.....well actually what WAS originally WPTW-FM until the late 1980s when it moved the transmitter up the road between Piqua and Houston and then became WCLR(Clear 95,Kool 95,then Oldies95 after the Cox takeover)
We'll see what happens... but what can you do with FM stereo simulcasting a mono AM station? ..you may as well shut off the FM stereo generator. Or is this a money saving move by Cox to streamline? Good nevertheless for the listeners north of Piqua who can't pull in WHIO-AM that well. Dayton AM stations,even at 5kw historically don't perform well in the northern neck of the woods in the evenings except for maybe WONE when it competed with WING in the 60s (WING having the worst 5kw signal especially at sunrise and sunset times.)
We'll see what happens... but what can you do with FM stereo simulcasting a mono AM station? ..you may as well shut off the FM stereo generator. Or is this a money saving move by Cox to streamline? Good nevertheless for the listeners north of Piqua who can't pull in WHIO-AM that well. Dayton AM stations,even at 5kw historically don't perform well in the northern neck of the woods in the evenings except for maybe WONE when it competed with WING in the 60s (WING having the worst 5kw signal especially at sunrise and sunset times.)
Hello, everyone!
I say this because I'd like to address a few comments on the board.
I don't know this for a fact (because no one has informed me of this), but an engineer friend told me tonight WHIO-FM (WDPT) was transmitting in mono. If that's the case, I say...great! Who cares about the stereo light? You're listening to talk for cryin' out loud! And, a mono FM signal travels better than a stereo one. This would be common-sense that more companies should think about.
To engineer Phil: I won't quibble with your last post and I agree with much of what you suggest. I would only remind you that not only is Greene County a big growth area, so, too is Miami County. This move will bring a usable WHIO signal to areas that (based upon the posts from other people), are not being reached with the AM signal. It will allow the station to be more "regional" than it could possibly have been.
Lastly, a general comment here. Though the "talk" programming is largely nationally syndicated, the "news" is local and live. We employ a local news staff that basically works around the clock. (Something very few stations have anymore.) And, considering we're still supposed to be programmed in the public "interest, convenience and necessity", isn't that what's really important? One can argue programming, "conservative vs. liberal", "right vs. left", but at the end of the day, it's...who can you trust to bring you information you need when you need it?
I say this because I'd like to address a few comments on the board.
I don't know this for a fact (because no one has informed me of this), but an engineer friend told me tonight WHIO-FM (WDPT) was transmitting in mono. If that's the case, I say...great! Who cares about the stereo light? You're listening to talk for cryin' out loud! And, a mono FM signal travels better than a stereo one. This would be common-sense that more companies should think about.
To engineer Phil: I won't quibble with your last post and I agree with much of what you suggest. I would only remind you that not only is Greene County a big growth area, so, too is Miami County. This move will bring a usable WHIO signal to areas that (based upon the posts from other people), are not being reached with the AM signal. It will allow the station to be more "regional" than it could possibly have been.
Lastly, a general comment here. Though the "talk" programming is largely nationally syndicated, the "news" is local and live. We employ a local news staff that basically works around the clock. (Something very few stations have anymore.) And, considering we're still supposed to be programmed in the public "interest, convenience and necessity", isn't that what's really important? One can argue programming, "conservative vs. liberal", "right vs. left", but at the end of the day, it's...who can you trust to bring you information you need when you need it?
To you who live or spend time in the counties north of Dayton, I thought the 1290 directional pattern throws a lobe up that way at night. Is reception bad because of the ground wave / sky wave phenomenon?
It will be hard to think of 95.7 as being WHIO-FM. I still have a hard time with 99.1 being WHKO. To me, that big, rich signal on 99.1 will always be the real WHIO-FM.
It will be hard to think of 95.7 as being WHIO-FM. I still have a hard time with 99.1 being WHKO. To me, that big, rich signal on 99.1 will always be the real WHIO-FM.
techie2 said:
Last time I checked, which was about fifteen minutes ago, 95.7 was lighting up my stereo indicator on my Grundig. Here in Sharonville, the 1290 signal during the day booms in, but at night it's comparable to 1360 WSAI (that was a shot at CC Cincinnati, they really need to fix 1360's signal). Now with WHIO-FM, I can listen to Michael Savage at 9pm! (Where's the barfing smiley? I need one here.)
UPDATE: Tonight, 1290 was coming in BETTER than 1360. Are you listening Clear Channel Cincinnati engineers? Get with the program! How do you expect to get any ratings when your signal barely travels 5 miles?
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