Who Actually Listens?

[NJListener]

Granted I am new here, but I cannot help but be curious. Of all you that post regularly on this NY board, do any of you actually listen to WCBS, WLTW, Q-104.3, etc. Or is all of your knowledge based strictly on "stats"? Some of you have been somewhat condescending to some comments made by posters that were merely "listeners", so it begs the question.

 

[JustinCase]

I listen... *sits hours in traffic a week listening to NY Radio*

 

[mikerock]

I listen... *sits hours in traffic a week listening to NY Radio*

So do I and sick of the same beat to death hacky bland crap over and over again, no matter the format here in NYC. The stations in NYC are so over programmed they can be compared to elevator music from years past. They have sucked the life out of every musical art form.

It was only The Peak and the last month of JACK that were/are sometimes bright spots on the dial. Occassionally Fresh you can catch one or two songs before the hard core womens music comes on.

What is it about NYC that they do not try to cater to white males between 30-45. It seems every station targets woman, kids, ethic culture and now CBS-FM 50+ (that have no taste in music since there is tons of great oldies that will never get played on CBS-FM.)

So I sit hours in traffic and keep telling myself I need to find the time to get Sirius.

 

[KevinFodor]

Granted I am new here, but I cannot help but be curious. Of all you that post regularly on this NY board, do any of you actually listen to WCBS, WLTW, Q-104.3, etc. Or is all of your knowledge based strictly on "stats"? Some of you have been somewhat condescending to some comments made by posters that were merely "listeners", so it begs the question.

That's a fair question.

I'm not in New York City. I don't have, as it's been described here, "a dog in this fight".

I'm in Dayton, Ohio, where I am one of a number of programmers at a radio group here...I am officially in charge of a Classic Hits station that does very well for our cluster. I have followed the CBS-FM saga since it went Jack (which both myself and most of the programmers in our group would agree was a disasterous decision). I do listen to the station online.

I have been a successful Oldies jock (my first experience with the format was in 1987). I was APD for WCOL; Columbus, Ohio when it played oldies and successfully defended its' position against a full signaled competitor. (Something rarely seen in the format.) I have also been an Oldies PD. And, I also programmed what has been generally accepted as being the first "all 80's" station in America. I have 35 years experience in professional radio broadcasting. I have also worked, or are working in the Country format, CHR, Hot A/C and Newstalk.

I don't mean to be condescending to anyone on this board. I can appreciate the passion that fans of the old CBS-FM have for their music. (I'm 50 years old...I do like most of the music from the 1950's.) But what some of them don't understand (and, apparently in some cases, just cannot grasp) are the realities of programming a radio station in the 21st century. The advertisers and the ad industry are the ones who have "given up" on the 55 plus audience. And, because radio depends on the advertisers and ad industry for our income, we have no choice but to follow. I think the ad industry is missing out on a big opportunity. But, for now at least, you can't convince them otherwise. And that is why, I admit to bristling a little bit when impassioned oldies fans (some of whom are mobile disc jockeys, record collectors and oldies fanatics who have never worked in a radio station) tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. They don't walk in my shoes...they have no idea what we deal with on a daily basis.

And, frankly, the heat that they've brought to the current staff at WCBS-FM is unfair and uncalled for. For God's sake, the station is only about a week or two old. Formats are often done "on the run". As I understand it, they're dealing with a new studio, new equipment and a format for which the basics are understood, but the specifics are being created on a daily basis. Give them a little time.

The Classic Hits format has been wildly succesful in quite a few markets. The new CBS-FM is a Classic Hits station that is being tailored to New York, with respect offered to the personality DJ's that the city craves. (Something that rarely happens here in the Midwest.) It's clearly a work in progress and should be considered as such.

And don't think that a lot of stations across America aren't paying attention.

 

[KevinFodor]

I listen... *sits hours in traffic a week listening to NY Radio*

So do I and sick of the same beat to death hacky bland crap over and over again, no matter the format here in NYC. The stations in NYC are so over programmed they can be compared to elevator music from years past. They have sucked the life out of every musical art form.

It was only The Peak and the last month of JACK that were/are sometimes bright spots on the dial. Occassionally Fresh you can catch one or two songs before the hard core womens music comes on.

What is it about NYC that they do not try to cater to white males between 30-45. It seems every station targets woman, kids, ethic culture and now CBS-FM 50+ (that have no taste in music since there is tons of great oldies that will never get played on CBS-FM.)

So I sit hours in traffic and keep telling myself I need to find the time to get Sirius.

CBS-FM is not a 50 plus station, Mike. They are targeted 35-54, the prime demo for advertisers. The demo a Classic Hits station generally delivers.

What "oldies" do you want to hear that "never get played". Most of time, there's a reason those songs never get played.

 

[NJListener]

Granted I am new here, but I cannot help but be curious. Of all you that post regularly on this NY board, do any of you actually listen to WCBS, WLTW, Q-104.3, etc. Or is all of your knowledge based strictly on "stats"? Some of you have been somewhat condescending to some comments made by posters that were merely "listeners", so it begs the question.

That's a fair question.

I'm not in New York City. I don't have, as it's been described here, "a dog in this fight".

I'm in Dayton, Ohio, where I am one of a number of programmers at a radio group here...I am officially in charge of a Classic Hits station that does very well for our cluster. I have followed the CBS-FM saga since it went Jack (which both myself and most of the programmers in our group would agree was a disasterous decision). I do listen to the station online.

I have been a successful Oldies jock (my first experience with the format was in 1987). I was APD for WCOL; Columbus, Ohio when it played oldies and successfully defended its' position against a full signaled competitor. (Something rarely seen in the format.) I have also been an Oldies PD. And, I also programmed what has been generally accepted as being the first "all 80's" station in America. I have 35 years experience in professional radio broadcasting. I have also worked, or are working in the Country format, CHR, Hot A/C and Newstalk.

I don't mean to be condescending to anyone on this board. I can appreciate the passion that fans of the old CBS-FM have for their music. (I'm 50 years old...I do like most of the music from the 1950's.) But what some of them don't understand (and, apparently in some cases, just cannot grasp) are the realities of programming a radio station in the 21st century. The advertisers and the ad industry are the ones who have "given up" on the 55 plus audience. And, because radio depends on the advertisers and ad industry for our income, we have no choice but to follow. I think the ad industry is missing out on a big opportunity. But, for now at least, you can't convince them otherwise. And that is why, I admit to bristling a little bit when impassioned oldies fans (some of whom are mobile disc jockeys, record collectors and oldies fanatics who have never worked in a radio station) tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. They don't walk in my shoes...they have no idea what we deal with on a daily basis.

And, frankly, the heat that they've brought to the current staff at WCBS-FM is unfair and uncalled for. For God's sake, the station is only about a week or two old. Formats are often done "on the run". As I understand it, they're dealing with a new studio, new equipment and a format for which the basics are understood, but the specifics are being created on a daily basis. Give them a little time.

The Classic Hits format has been wildly succesful in quite a few markets. The new CBS-FM is a Classic Hits station that is being tailored to New York, with respect offered to the personality DJ's that the city craves. (Something that rarely happens here in the Midwest.) It's clearly a work in progress and should be considered as such.

And don't think that a lot of stations across America aren't paying attention.

Kevin, That was a well-thought out response and I respect your candor. I have noticed that you make every attempt to educate and I do appreciate your sharing your knowledge. It's especially refreshing because the topic of an Oldies" format is one that you so well relate to, considering your personal taste and EXPERIENCE with it. I never quite thought about taking it a little easier on WCBS . Maybe I will lighten up on the calls and letters and give them a chance. Great post, thanks again.

I listen... *sits hours in traffic a week listening to NY Radio*

So do I and sick of the same beat to death hacky bland crap over and over again, no matter the format here in NYC. The stations in NYC are so over programmed they can be compared to elevator music from years past. They have sucked the life out of every musical art form.

It was only The Peak and the last month of JACK that were/are sometimes bright spots on the dial. Occassionally Fresh you can catch one or two songs before the hard core womens music comes on.

What is it about NYC that they do not try to cater to white males between 30-45. It seems every station targets woman, kids, ethic culture and now CBS-FM 50+ (that have no taste in music since there is tons of great oldies that will never get played on CBS-FM.)

So I sit hours in traffic and keep telling myself I need to find the time to get Sirius.

I sit in traffic as well and can ALWAYS find something on, Granted I have varied taste but Q 104.3, WCBS, WLTW, WPLJ (sad what happened there) or even the dreaded Z100, if my kids are in the car. Geesh, there is something for everyone. And if worse comes to worse , I pop in a CD. I bet you're just missing Howard Stern. The 30-45 white male is his bread and butter. Glad he went to Sirius, couldn't stand him..overpaid jerk.

 

[davideduardo]

Granted I am new here, but I cannot help but be curious. Of all you that post regularly on this NY board, do any of you actually listen to WCBS, WLTW, Q-104.3, etc. Or is all of your knowledge based strictly on "stats"? Some of you have been somewhat condescending to some comments made by posters that were merely "listeners", so it begs the question.

Not all the poeple who understand what CBS-FM is doing have to be in NY... just the listeners.

I live on the other coast, but am involved with 3 NY stations, and I listen to CBS-FM (Fresh and WLTW are not my favorites, as I am not in any part of the Female 25-54 demo the two overlap on targeting) because I established and work on 12 classic hits stations in the Southwest (Yeah, they are in Spanish, but they are classic hits). So anything that has to do with the format is of interest to me. That is why I also listen to station on the web like Nostalgié in France which is another former oldies station now doing classic hits.

Every market has its quirks and peculiarities. But 95% of a format is universal. The problem, really, is people who say "Mytown is different from Yortown and Hiztown" in order to justify not following research or simply learning from the experiences of others. Every time I have done a launch where there were "It won't work here" partisans, it has worked there.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

So do I and sick of the same beat to death hacky bland crap over and over again, no matter the format here in NYC. The stations in NYC are so over programmed they can be compared to elevator music from years past. They have sucked the life out of every musical art form.

It was only The Peak and the last month of JACK that were/are sometimes bright spots on the dial. Occassionally Fresh you can catch one or two songs before the hard core womens music comes on.

What is it about NYC that they do not try to cater to white males between 30-45. It seems every station targets woman, kids, ethic culture and now CBS-FM 50+ (that have no taste in music since there is tons of great oldies that will never get played on CBS-FM.)

So I sit hours in traffic and keep telling myself I need to find the time to get Sirius.

Mike, since you like The Peak (sometimes) would you say you don't mind once in a while hearing an eclectic format? If so, would you listen to a station with a recent playlist like this?:
Kidjo, Angelique Sedjedo 6:26 PM
Gabriel, Peter Biko 6:19 PM
XTC I'm The Man Who Murdered Love 6:15 PM
Stewart, Rod True Blue 6:12 PM
Modest Mouse Missed The Boat 6:07 PM
Band Mystery Train 6:01 PM
Adams, Ryan 'New York, New York' 5:58 PM
Lynyrd Skynyrd Don't Ask Me No Questions (Single Version) 5:54 PM
Browne, Jackson For Everyman 5:48 PM
They Might Be Giants Take Out The Trash 5:39 PM
McCartney, Paul Junior's Farm (DJ Edit) 5:36 PM

Earlier today I heard this station play (I'm not kidding!) Maybelline-Chuck Berry; Hungry-Paul Revere & the Raiders; old Moody Blues, Bruce Cockburn, etc

Yes they play some golden nuggetts--

NYC has always been conservative re. music radio (except the early days of progressive rock on "NEW-FM and to a lesser extent pre-1983 WPLJ or should I say pre-1975 WPLJ)
I've been listening to CBS-FM in the last two weks online and I am impressed with what I hear. After a while I get my "oldies" fix and I gravitate to something else online. Can't wait til Internet radio streams are more portable.

 

[mikerock]

CBS-FM is not a 50 plus station, Mike. They are targeted 35-54, the prime demo for advertisers. The demo a Classic Hits station generally delivers.

What "oldies" do you want to hear that "never get played". Most of time, there's a reason those songs never get played.

I am 42 so I would be in demo and the playlist is out of my generation. That is fine as long as it is not this bland classic hits crap. Disco and Dolly Pardon 9-5, oh please. Like I said there is allot of great rock from the 50s, 60s and on but I guess we will never get to hear it.

 

[KevinFodor]

Well, being in Dayton, Ohio, I can't speak for the powers-that-be at CBS-FM. But, I can offer a couple of
thoughts...

Disco (depending upon what songs you play), generally would appeal to women, not men. And, the original oldies format, while compatible with men, was, typically, a female-oriented format. That could be part of the reason you are not as fond of what they're doing. However, some 70's pop hits were also disco-leaned. It's quite possible that songs like "Get Down Tonight" or "That's The Way I Like It" by K.C. and The Sunshine Band might hit the mark in a music test. People associate the group with disco (and no argument they were a part of that short-lived phenominum)...but both of those songs predated the movie "Saturday Night Live". They were, for their time, pop records.

Dolly Parton, "9 To 5". OK. On this one, I agree with you. It seems to be stretch for them to be playing what was, pretty much, a novelty crossover hit. But, like I said, I don't work there. And I don't know the "context" that caused it to be played.

That you are 42 and you suggest the playlist is "out of your generation" suggests to me you were raised on older music from the beginning. It's just your "preference" and, hey...to each his own. Sounds to me like your tastes are more to the rock side (think Elvis, Buddy Holly, Beatles, Doors, Hendrix, Zeppelin, etc.) Nothing wrong with that. I graduated high school in 1974. I'm 50 now. If I specifically stated my personal music influences as a youth, I'd say Elvis Presley and the Beatles. But my high school years? It was CSN, Grand Funk, CCR, Elton John, Bachman-Turner Overdrive..and as the 70's continued, Billy Joel, Lynyrd Skynyrd, etc. Disco (since I worked in one) was amusing. I just didn't get as into it as the people who were polyester princes.

I was a CHR jock in the 80's and I'm fine with John Mellencamp, Springsteen and a lot of the 80's pop, too.

But Classic Hits as a format is designed to lean more like 55%-45% women...maybe even 60%-40% women depending upon the market. No radio station these days tries to appeal to everyone. Every station has a target. If you're not exactly in the target, for whatever reason, you'll have some problems with what the station offers.

 

[mikerock]

Actually meant to say it is outside of my generation, not out of my generation. This is why I think it sounds like they are targeting 50+. But with that said I do agree with what you are saying and yes my tastes are more on the rock side.

K-Rock has a pretty tight playlist and is talk in the morning. So that leaves only The Peak in White Plains, NY not even in NYC which has a "Triple A" format spanning 70s to today. They were great earlier this year and then made some tweaks going too far off the beaten path but now since the demise of JACK they tweaked again. Much better again but a little worried after hearing too many beat to death 70s classic rock hits that the Q104.3 plays. (another 50+ station IMHO).

It seems NYC radio has this void for many different flavors of rock from the 80s to today. At least K-Rock is now covering some of that with their tight playlist. Not to mention no country outlet either. Like I said white males between 30-45 seem to be completely disregarded by NYC radio.

 

[RadioMan203]

I have to put my 2 cents in on this one ...

I actually listen to NY Radio for various reasons. I listen to 'LTW and Fresh to hear the differences between how they target their listeners (this is pretty new to me since the 102.7 flip). I listen to CBS-FM so I have an idea what to do different on my oldies webstream (yes, the subject has been beaten to death here in the forums, CBS-FM is programming for the sake of advertisers and you can't blame them - if you want deep oldies you've got a multitude of choices from everyhing from my own webstream, XM, iPod, etc). I also bounce around the dial to get an idea of what the majors are doing for "Big City" processing so I can be educated when talking to my freelance radio clients. I also listen to non-Manhattan NY stations such as WLNG and a few others on the island to see how they're trying to compete in their market as well as across the water in CT (for those reaching the Fairfield County shore).

Simply put, radio has to change with the times and there are going to be those who are unhappy with CBS-FM. You've just gotta get over it and accept it. I doubt any station is programming exactly the way it was back in the 1970's - it just wouldn't fly in today's environment.

 

[KevinFodor]

And you know what, Bill?

An internet station is the perfect place for a 50's based or focused radio station. Because you can, in addition to selling ads on your site, ask for contributions from your listeners...something terrestrial radio really can't do.

 

[RadioMan203]

And you know what, Bill?

An internet station is the perfect place for a 50's based or focused radio station. Because you can, in addition to selling ads on your site, ask for contributions from your listeners...something terrestrial radio really can't do.

EXACTLY! Sadly, I hear very little from those who claim to be fans of the 50's music, so it's ended up as part of my weekend programming. I operate my webstream similar to the public radio "Listener Supported" model, since I dare to go deeper than most terrestrial stations. I've even gone as far as purchasing many original promo and single versions of tunes from the 50's on up to give listeners as close to the original hit sound as possible. While there's great potential for everybody it seems there's not much of a market for the 50's.

The only conclusions I can come up with are either the fans of the 50's sound can't acclimate themselves to the technology (i.e., computers) and haven't made the jump to online radio or there's so few who really want this music genre. If the latter is true it's a self evident answer why terrestrial radio has dropped anything prior to 1964 in their active rotations.

 

[adma]

The only conclusions I can come up with are either the fans of the 50's sound can't acclimate themselves to the technology (i.e., computers) and haven't made the jump to online radio or there's so few who really want this music genre. If the latter is true it's a self evident answer why terrestrial radio has dropped anything prior to 1964 in their active rotations.

I'd assume maybe more the former--or else, it may not be so much a matter of "so few who really want this music genre", as "so few who really want this *radio* genre".

In a way, 50s taste is probably going in more of a specialty, artisanal, connoisseurish direction, such that the fundamentally "middlebrow" approach of oldies radio (or even of a lot of commercial radio in general) no longer fits the bill. And if radio *does* fit into the equation, it might more along the lines of aggressive Alan Freed-ian archaeology than the "music of your life" gambit.

It parallels how today's taste for Sinatra owes scarcely anything to the MOR radio environment on which artists like him once prospered.

 

[JustinCase]

I listen... *sits hours in traffic a week listening to NY Radio*

So do I and sick of the same beat to death hacky bland crap over and over again, no matter the format here in NYC. The stations in NYC are so over programmed they can be compared to elevator music from years past. They have sucked the life out of every musical art form.

It was only The Peak and the last month of JACK that were/are sometimes bright spots on the dial. Occassionally Fresh you can catch one or two songs before the hard core womens music comes on.

I travel for work, and I'm originally from Upstate, so I don't feel the NYC radio dial is anything to complain about, you want to complain, drive through smaller cities and hear how limited radio is... I enjoy the radio, I enjoy the jocks... I REALLY appreciate a good chuckle and traffic reports while I commute!

I am not the biggest fan of rock, so I didn't enjoy the rock leaning variety of Jack, and I also didn't like the lack of jocks... don't get me wrong I love lots of music, but I also like being talked too.. its calming when your car has moved 50 feet in 45 minutes. As for Fresh, its just another 106.7, no matter how they try to re-invent the wheel.