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Who is the Classical Listener and Music Rotation

This is a two subject post but but both subjects are related.

1) Who is the Classical listener? Age, Race, Economic Level, Education Level, Male versus female. In general terms, who listens to classical music?

2) Music Rotation: Obviously there is a base library of selections that is fairly easy to define. This base library is certainly the key to success. In other formats the 500 or so best testing songs for the target audience is the key to success.

What I am hearing from Classical listeners I get the chance to talk to is for:
1) a station to play a few, is not several, versions of the well known works performed by different orchestras.
2) a station must play 'Discovery' works. These can be deeper key composer works or works by lesser-known composers.
3) a station must strike a good ratio between the various types of 'classical' music. This gets a bit tricky. Not only does Classical span many eras (baroque, romantic, etc.) but ranges from solo instrument works, duos, quartets, small groups and full fledged orchestras. Works also include vocals.
4) a station should play only complete works versus just a movement. Some disagree.

So, when creating a 'format clock', so to speak, why not give this some thought and give me an idea of the ratio you think is the right mix. I'll pose some questions to expound:
1) percentage that is well known works with a few versions that critics say are the best
2) percentage from each era: how much Romantic, Baroque, etc.
3) What percentage should comprise orchestrated works
4) What percentage should be solo instrument, duos, small groups? Are vocals okay? What percentage? Are there instruments one should avoid? Harp, flute, harpsichord, lute?
5) Thinking movements, while most say to play the whole work not a piece of it, there are many 'segments' that are loved and make a nice fill. Is it okay to play movements? If so, are there any hard and fast rules?

More and more PDs are telling me their listeners want only music. They describe listeners thinking of the station as an escape from the world, an oasis, as one put it. News, Traffic and such are cracks in the escape pod they call their station. How important is news and traffic? Most all do the weather forecast in morning drive and almost all are heavy on announcing events in the arts community. Most doing one or two an hour. How important is this?

Most say the announcer is a key fixture in classical radio. It seems many do not know the work played or at least the performers. The classical listener listens to the announcer to learn more about the work or composer. Some say an announcer is not crucial. How crucial to the success of the format is an announcer?

Is the classical format listener in two groups and neither mesh? Group one is an avid classical listener. Group two is the casual listener with little if any classical music knowledge. They buy the cheap classical CD compilations for $5 and are happy. They feel the format has a learning curve and they don't feel a part of the listener group but an outsider. Some say they'd listen more but they just don't feel connected to the station. This group, from what I have seen, is less likely to contribute to the station financially likely because most in this group already listen to several other stations that tend to be commercial, so giving to a station is not something they think about. On the other hand, avid classical listeners complain their station (that also caters to the casual listener) has 'dumbed down' the format to cater to this group and it rubs them the wrong way. How can both groups be involved? Is converting the casual listener the key to the survival of classical on radio?

If you had to sum up the size of a music library a classical station might have, how many hours might that be? And that core base library should be about how many hours? For example, about 800 hours with 200 as the core base library (numbers pulled from thin air).

There's a bunch here but your thoughts as a classical radio person or a classical music listener would go far in expanding my knowledge. I likely missed some important ingredients in a successful classical station, so feel free to point that out. Thank you.
 
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The announcing in classical music is very important, IMO. When a piece has an allegory, or is a selection from a longer piece (say, a ballet) it is helpful to the listener to point that out. If a piece is titled in French or German (etc) the announcer should translate that for us.

IMO classical music tends to feel lonely without announcers, particularly if the music selections are all instrumental - there's not much in the way of human connection there and it becomes audio wallpaper. To some extent, this is true with announcers, particularly the syndicated ones. If you turn on "Classical 24", you're likely to get the name of the piece, the composer, and the conductor - and usually not much else.

Two more important questions:
1) Should the station include "sacred classical" music. Would it be OK to play any of the Christmas or Easter cantadas by J.S. Bach?
2) Should the station include "light classical" music? By this, I primarily mean music from films, musicals and other music that may fit the genre sonicaly, but was composed as popular music.

My personal answers to both are yes. Certainly I would re-evaluate if I were hired as a program director for a classical station somewhere.
 
This is a two subject post but but both subjects are related.

1) Who is the Classical listener? Age, Race, Economic Level, Education Level, Male versus female. In general terms, who listens to classical music?

2) Music Rotation: Obviously there is a base library of selections that is fairly easy to define. This base library is certainly the key to success. In other formats the 500 or so best testing songs for the target audience is the key to success.

What I am hearing from Classical listeners I get the chance to talk to is for:
1) a station to play a few, is not several, versions of the well known works performed by different orchestras.
2) a station must play 'Discovery' works. These can be deeper key composer works or works by lesser-known composers.
3) a station must strike a good ratio between the various types of 'classical' music. This gets a bit tricky. Not only does Classical span many eras (baroque, romantic, etc.) but ranges from solo instrument works, duos, quartets, small groups and full fledged orchestras. Works also include vocals.
4) a station should play only complete works versus just a movement. Some disagree.

So, when creating a 'format clock', so to speak, why not give this some thought and give me an idea of the ratio you think is the right mix. I'll pose some questions to expound:
1) percentage that is well known works with a few versions that critics say are the best
2) percentage from each era: how much Romantic, Baroque, etc.
3) What percentage should comprise orchestrated works
4) What percentage should be solo instrument, duos, small groups? Are vocals okay? What percentage? Are there instruments one should avoid? Harp, flute, harpsichord, lute?
5) Thinking movements, while most say to play the whole work not a piece of it, there are many 'segments' that are loved and make a nice fill. Is it okay to play movements? If so, are there any hard and fast rules?

More and more PDs are telling me their listeners want only music. They describe listeners thinking of the station as an escape from the world, an oasis, as one put it. News, Traffic and such are cracks in the escape pod they call their station. How important is news and traffic? Most all do the weather forecast in morning drive and almost all are heavy on announcing events in the arts community. Most doing one or two an hour. How important is this?

Most say the announcer is a key fixture in classical radio. It seems many do not know the work played or at least the performers. The classical listener listens to the announcer to learn more about the work or composer. Some say an announcer is not crucial. How crucial to the success of the format is an announcer?

Is the classical format listener in two groups and neither mesh? Group one is an avid classical listener. Group two is the casual listener with little if any classical music knowledge. They buy the cheap classical CD compilations for $5 and are happy. They feel the format has a learning curve and they don't feel a part of the listener group but an outsider. Some say they'd listen more but they just don't feel connected to the station. This group, from what I have seen, is less likely to contribute to the station financially likely because most in this group already listen to several other stations that tend to be commercial, so giving to a station is not something they think about. On the other hand, avid classical listeners complain their station (that also caters to the casual listener) has 'dumbed down' the format to cater to this group and it rubs them the wrong way. How can both groups be involved? Is converting the casual listener the key to the survival of classical on radio?

If you had to sum up the size of a music library a classical station might have, how many hours might that be? And that core base library should be about how many hours? For example, about 800 hours with 200 as the core base library (numbers pulled from thin air).

There's a bunch here but your thoughts as a classical radio person or a classical music listener would go far in expanding my knowledge. I likely missed some important ingredients in a successful classical station, so feel free to point that out. Thank you.

What an absolutely fabulous thought-provoking post....

I need to do a lot of thinking of this, but my thinking is that shorter, single movements of classical music are appropropriate during morning and afternoon drives (commercial announcements, traffic, news briefs along with the selections), I would tend to go more baroque from 9-1 p.m., then lighten it up towards going into afternoon drive.

It is totally appropriate to play longer religious works (Stabat Maters, Requiems, etc.). It is interesting that many classical music stations seem to avoid playing operatic works, which is really a shame. There is some very modern composers which will drive away listeners due to their sometimes obnoxious sounds. Also, this new style of not announcing works before their played is terrible. I would keep the announcements short maybe mentioning one thing of note about the work. I think it is "fun" if a station has their significant birthday composer acknowledgement.
 
I really like how All Classical Portland 89.9 has been programming a lot of classical music and features celebrating Halloween....Rachmaninov's Isle of the Dead, Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, Faure March of the Marionettes (Alfred Hitchcock Present theme), etc.....
 
This is a two subject post but but both subjects are related.

1) Who is the Classical listener? Age,
On average? 50+
White
Economic Level,
Retired/fixed income, or Medium to High tax bracket.
Education Level,
College educated, professional-level.
Male versus female.
Surprisingly, predominantly male.
In general terms, who listens to classical music?
White, retired or educated males over 50.
2) Music Rotation: Obviously there is a base library of selections that is fairly easy to define. This base library is certainly the key to success. In other formats the 500 or so best testing songs for the target audience is the key to success.
Many classical stations don't have music rotations in the way we're used to. I'd say the majority feature certain genre's within an hour or even show. For example; sometimes WETA will feature a particular composer in their morning show, playing more of that composer dispersed with some of 'the hits'.
4) a station should play only complete works versus just a movement. Some disagree.
That depends. During drive times, many classical stations will play a movement because the audience may be commuting for shorter periods of time. Believe it or not; classical stations are also cognizant of keeping the audience through quarter hour(s).
5) Thinking movements, while most say to play the whole work not a piece of it, there are many 'segments' that are loved and make a nice fill. Is it okay to play movements? If so, are there any hard and fast rules?
Programming strategy for a successful classical station hurts my brain. I've witnessed first hand, the Program/Music Director in Portland, OR who is absolutely amazing at it. Talk about being able to set aside your own personal tastes and mind-meld with your listeners. One either has it, or you don't. Radio version of 'The Force'. Not much research data is available.
More and more PDs are telling me their listeners want only music. They describe listeners thinking of the station as an escape from the world, an oasis, as one put it. News, Traffic and such are cracks in the escape pod they call their station. How important is news and traffic? Most all do the weather forecast in morning drive and almost all are heavy on announcing events in the arts community. Most doing one or two an hour. How important is this?
Just like conventionally programmed radio stations, classical has their clock when talent should be talking. That time could be around a UC Break or setting up the next twenty minute sweep of music.
If you had to sum up the size of a music library a classical station might have, how many hours might that be? And that core base library should be about how many hours? For example, about 800 hours with 200 as the core base library (numbers pulled from thin air).
In Portland they had a huge music library with probably over 10,000 hours of CD's sitting/cataloged on shelves. That library would be moved in or out of the automation playout server depending on storage confinements.
There's a bunch here but your thoughts as a classical radio person or a classical music listener would go far in expanding my knowledge. I likely missed some important ingredients in a successful classical station, so feel free to point that out. Thank you.
Plug for All Classical Portland: LIVE Web Stream. All Classical Portland
This is how classical radio is done.
 
WFMT Chicago is the best classical / fine arts station in the country. Full compositions (mostly), live opera, only spoken-word commercials. The benchmark.
 
I was thinking about the breakdown in classical music formats. Then I realized I have my classical music on three flash drives for the car depending on the disance and the mood. One is for light classical; overtures, dances, suites, variations. The second is for longer works; symphonies, concertos. And the third is for vocal works. Just like the trichomamy discussed earlier. It means you can't really please everyone. Especially if you are the only game in town.
 
The C24 audience:

  • 50% female, 50% male.
  • Median age of 67, with 23% between 25 and 54.
  • 68% hold bachelor's degrees or higher.
  • 43% have an annual household income of $75,000 or more.
Source: ACT1 Systems based on Nielsen Audio Nationwide DMA Audience Estimates, Persons 12+, Spring 2021
Classical 24
 
The C24 audience:

  • 50% female, 50% male.
  • Median age of 67, with 23% between 25 and 54.
  • 68% hold bachelor's degrees or higher.
  • 43% have an annual household income of $75,000 or more.
Source: ACT1 Systems based on Nielsen Audio Nationwide DMA Audience Estimates, Persons 12+, Spring 2021
Classical 24
The number I don't see is what per centage of the listening audience that represents. That may be an unfortunate number.
 
The number I don't see is what per centage of the listening audience that represents. That may be an unfortunate number.
I would guess it is from their contributors, as the vast number of these stations are non-coms.
 
Disclaimer: This reply is strictly speaking for myself, one classical listener out of many, nobody else. While I'd hope this is plenty obvious, I find at times that when replying in certain parts of this site that my comment is taken overly seriously and commands a stern reply/lecture, especially if I don't strictly fit a format's "target" demographic yet I still enjoy the programming. Anyways:

1) Who is the Classical listener? Age, Race, Economic Level, Education Level, Male versus female. In general terms, who listens to classical music?

Late 30s, Heinz 57 (mostly English and Welsh), broke as f---, dumber than a rock (graduated high school, went to work and attended 2-year community college), gender ambiguous (biologically male). Just some trashy yob who "should" be into the rap, hip-hop, metal and other similar stereotypical non-musical trash society has deemed worthy for my demographic, yet enjoys the beauty and precision of classical music (and BM/EZ) instead. Even though all PDs seem to agree otherwise, not everybody born after 1981 wants to feel like they're at a 24-and-7 rave. I'm "that guy" who attends a symphony performance in jeans, T-shirt and Vans (or god forbid, river sandals), yet will close my eyes and and let myself be swept away in the beauty of the music.

Group one is an avid classical listener. Group two is the casual listener with little if any classical music knowledge. They buy the cheap classical CD compilations for $5 and are happy. They feel the format has a learning curve and they don't feel a part of the listener group but an outsider. They feel the format has a learning curve and they don't feel a part of the listener group but an outsider. Some say they'd listen more but they just don't feel connected to the station. This group, from what I have seen, is less likely to contribute to the station financially likely because most in this group already listen to several other stations that tend to be commercial, so giving to a station is not something they think about. On the other hand, avid classical listeners complain their station (that also caters to the casual listener) has 'dumbed down' the format to cater to this group and it rubs them the wrong way.

Group three. Or Group 2 1/2. I've never noticed any "learning curve" and couldn't care less about feeling a part of the "listener group", just what I enjoy and makes me happy. If living in a vacuum of analysis and deconstruction of every piece makes the music snobs happy, more power to them. It takes all kinds to make a world. If they don't like that a station is playing more accessible works to attract a "lesser" form of life, that's their problem. Listen to the music and let it make you happy/help keep you sane.

More and more PDs are telling me their listeners want only music. They describe listeners thinking of the station as an escape from the world, an oasis, as one put it. News, Traffic and such are cracks in the escape pod they call their station.

It is. This is why I set my alarm clock (a DX440 set to KQAC) to go off at 0710, specifically to avoid that crap and why I don't listen to any commercial mainstream media at all. I can't think of anything more insulting than being awoken to the morning propaganda report, stalled cars backing I-5 up at morning crush hour and the routine house robbery six counties away. I have CB radios in the car and house if I need a traffic report. I'd rather be rousted out of bed by a lovely piano sonata or a bustling symphony.

All strictly MHO.
 
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oldradiotapes, I love your response. We get very involved with 'typical' listeners but fail to remember that's just the center of the whole group of listeners.

The point I was trying to make by listeners feeling there is a learning curve is they do not understand many of the terms or any background on the composers or their nationality. In other words they would not have a mental picture of what a sonota is or what baroque music is. From what I gather with you is all of that doesn't matter, the music does. I agree.

A question for you is if you prefer hearing the, shall we say, 'top 40' of classical or do you also want to hear works and composers you may not have heard before. If so, what would be a nice percentage of each, in your opinion?
 
I'd guess 50/50, if I had to throw a figure out there. Some of the more obscure/lesser known/underappreciated works can be quite good and one sometimes has to wonder why they're not part of the standard repertoire, or at least performed a little more often. For example, a $10 Madacy "Classics for Dining" 3-disc set that I Found at Fred Meyer™ years ago revealled Telemann's seldom-heard "Concerto for Two Horns and Orchestra" (TWV 52: D2) (see below), definitely one of his rarer pieces and a very lively one; how often do you hear a French horn duet playing lead? That one actually made it into a lot of my motocross tapes/discs.

 
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oldradiotapes, I love your response. We get very involved with 'typical' listeners but fail to remember that's just the center of the whole group of listeners.

The point I was trying to make by listeners feeling there is a learning curve is they do not understand many of the terms or any background on the composers or their nationality. In other words they would not have a mental picture of what a sonota is or what baroque music is. From what I gather with you is all of that doesn't matter, the music does. I agree.

A question for you is if you prefer hearing the, shall we say, 'top 40' of classical or do you also want to hear works and composers you may not have heard before. If so, what would be a nice percentage of each, in your opinion?
I would go for a ratio of 20-25% melodic lesser-known works, 75%-80% more commonly played music. There is some modern stuff which is a perfect accompaniment of "Music To Put Your Fist Through The Wall." I have noticed classical stations which don't play operatic arias as a part of their playlist, which is a shame. My drive time 3-7 p.m. playlist would be shorter classical works and some cross-over performed by current stars of classical music), a five minute news brief, major financial headlines, weather, and traffic during those hours all tied to direct sponsorships/advertising. I've debated in my head whether the spots would be announcer read like WFMT, or actual commercial spots.

The announcing should be in a relatively conversational style, but not bubbly, avoiding at all costs sounding condescending. The announcers need to relate to the audience. Scott Blankenship at Minnesota Public Radio is incredible as a part of MPR's syndicated classical music service.
 
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oldradiotapes, I love your response. We get very involved with 'typical' listeners but fail to remember that's just the center of the whole group of listeners.

The point I was trying to make by listeners feeling there is a learning curve is they do not understand many of the terms or any background on the composers or their nationality. In other words they would not have a mental picture of what a sonota is or what baroque music is. From what I gather with you is all of that doesn't matter, the music does. I agree.

A question for you is if you prefer hearing the, shall we say, 'top 40' of classical or do you also want to hear works and composers you may not have heard before. If so, what would be a nice percentage of each, in your opinion?
You don't need to specifically know the difference between a Sonata or Concerto or Suite or Symphony. "It's the music..." would be part of advertising and marketing. The San Diego Symphony Orchestra after it was revived after bankruptcy had some incredible radio and tV advertising/marketing.
 
Going through a box of papers today I found an old newspaper article. Here's a summary and your comments would be of interest...

KTEO FM Wichita Falls

The Wichita Falls Times Record News on July 1, 1996 included a story on 90.5 KTEO FM in Wichita Falls. The story noted the station was in it’s third year as a classical station.

The format was computer driven with only a station ID on the hour. David Briggs had been the General Manager at that time and I did learn a bit more about the format.

It seems the wife of David Briggs worked at the radio station and when I asked about the listener pleas, she said she could not recall if hourly or every other hour there was a short announcement encouraging listeners to donate. From a visit to Wichita Falls, I would say it was every other hour.

KTEO played Sacred music and traditional church music from 6 to Noon on Sunday. Every 30 minutes was a legal ID and time.

The article noted the station music library was over 1,300 selections including the top 100 classical pieces.

The station offered a program guide listing the date and time of every song played for the coming month. Printing the month was 111 pages.

There was no underwriting. Listeners contributed to get the program guide. David Briggs noted the station required $9,000 a month to meet expenses and ‘last check of the mail he has collected $2,025’. When I spoke to him, he mentioned about $2,000 a month was typical.

It seems something happened. In year three they carried the MET Opera on Saturday afternoon. A few weeks later they had signed up with the Beethoven Satellite Network. The daily 8 hour feed was aired in morning and afternoon drive. Both of these programming changes obviously were to increase listener support.

It was not long after these changes were made, the station flipped to a Children’s Christian format that was satellite fed.

In hindsight, I would say the issue might have been less about programming but more about sales. The sale of Underwriting would have greatly changed the revenue situation. Bringing in an extra $7,000 a month is not a terrible hurdle but certainly doable, especially in 1996.

From the Program Guide…
5:57 am Vivaldi: Concerto in D for Lute & 2 Violins
6:07 am Strauss: Morning Papers
6:14 am Anderson: Promenade
6:16 am Handel: Concerto Grosso #7 B flat major
6:33 am Bach: Sonata in C minor
6:47 am Mussorgsky: Intermezzo from 4th Act of Khovanshchina
6:51 am Elgar: Pomp and Circumstance
6:56 am Chopin: Waltz #5 in A flat major
7:00 am Brahms: Symphony #4 in E Minor, Opus 98
7:41 am Sibelius: Valse Triste, Opus 44
7:47 am Massenet: Meditation from Thais
7:52 am Vivaldi: Concerto in F for Treble Recorder
8:00 am Brahms: Hungarian Dance # 5 in F sharp major
8:03 am Londonderry Air
8:06 am Elgar: Symphony #1 in A flat Opus 55
8:57 am Puccini: Humming Chorus from Madam Butterfly
 
It was not long after these changes were made, the station flipped to a Children’s Christian format that was satellite fed.
Oof. That sucks, but I guess it's what they had to do, considering.

In hindsight, I would say the issue might have been less about programming but more about sales. The sale of Underwriting would have greatly changed the revenue situation. Bringing in an extra $7,000 a month is not a terrible hurdle but certainly doable, especially in 1996.
Was it just that an all-classical format was such a small niche in north Texas at the time, they couldn't even get local businesses (shops, restaurants, etc.) interested in underwriting?

To publish such an exhaustive programme guide seems like it would be quite a hefty expense, not to mention could potentially discourage listenership (since people would be tuning in at certain times to hear only the stuff they liked). While that approach is feasible for a full-service format like NPR members, which mainly play block programming targeted at multiple specific audiences throughout the day, it seems like a music format like all-classical should have some element of surprise to hold the listener's interest. I mean, that's been Classic Arts Showcase's stated philosophy since the beginning, anyways (which also specialises heavily, but not exclusively, in classical music). I would think that would have been the biggest mistake of their approach. Perhaps a 2- or 4-page newsletter giving a general overview of the month's programming, with details on any specials to be aired, would have been more practical.

Strictly MHO.
 
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To fill you in a bit, the radio station was automated with no selections announced. Unless you knew the work and the performers one needed the program guide to know what aired.

Lots of classical format stations once had monthly magazines with articles and their laylist for the coming month Naturally it had plenty of ads.

I feel the management might have been not that good at sales.

In their defense, WRR FM in Dallas, a long-time classical FM, is easily received in Wichita Falls, population about 125,000.
 
On average? 50+

White

Retired/fixed income, or Medium to High tax bracket.

College educated, professional-level.

Surprisingly, predominantly male.

White, retired or educated males over 50.

Many classical stations don't have music rotations in the way we're used to. I'd say the majority feature certain genre's within an hour or even show. For example; sometimes WETA will feature a particular composer in their morning show, playing more of that composer dispersed with some of 'the hits'.

That depends. During drive times, many classical stations will play a movement because the audience may be commuting for shorter periods of time. Believe it or not; classical stations are also cognizant of keeping the audience through quarter hour(s).

Programming strategy for a successful classical station hurts my brain. I've witnessed first hand, the Program/Music Director in Portland, OR who is absolutely amazing at it. Talk about being able to set aside your own personal tastes and mind-meld with your listeners. One either has it, or you don't. Radio version of 'The Force'. Not much research data is available.

Just like conventionally programmed radio stations, classical has their clock when talent should be talking. That time could be around a UC Break or setting up the next twenty minute sweep of music.

In Portland they had a huge music library with probably over 10,000 hours of CD's sitting/cataloged on shelves. That library would be moved in or out of the automation playout server depending on storage confinements.

Plug for All Classical Portland: LIVE Web Stream. All Classical Portland
This is how classical radio is done.
There was a real uproar when KOIN-FM in Portland, many years ago, dropped their classical music programming.
 
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