Who said they would NEVER put FM in an Ipod???

[Mike Walker]

Several here have pontificated that "they'll NEVER put FM in an Ipod". I, along with others, have countered that it's the number-one most requested new feature! Well Apple listened! The new Nano will have FM (and Ipod tagging...a feature I care nothing about since I am "of the other religion"...I get my tunes from Rhapsody, and listen on a Sansa View). Cool. I hope it's sensitive enough to work well. Perhaps next year they'll include HD! The little Insignia is such a huge seller at Best Buy that they can't keep them in stock.

 

[Play Freebird]

HD would have added to the cost, due to iBiquity's licensing structure.

Apple can sell this product all over the world, because analog FM and RDS are non-proprietary open standards. In fact, the iPhone 3G already includes a Broadcom chip that can receive FM and decode RDS with a firmware upgrade. Apple just needs to release it; perhaps this will happen when their exclusive deal with AT&T expires.

NAB (and iBiquity) have done AM broadcasters a great disservice by refusing to admit that medium-wave IBOC is a disaster, rather than supporting efforts to move this service to vacant low-band TV spectrum. This should have been planned 20 years ago.

 

[Mike Walker]

Excellent points, Play Freebird. There ARE other countries where HD is doing pretty well (on FM). But of course you're right that most countries would have no need for the HD chip. It would add unnecessary cost. Still, some regional differences are necessary...75us vs 25us de-emphasis on FM, for instance. Not to mention the fact that Japan (and Russia) have different FM bands.

 

[Savage]

Umm...I'm missing something here. Precisely what does Apple's decision to include FM in iPod products have to do with HD Radio??

What appears to me to be far more significant is Apple's thundering silence on the HD issue - and its notable exclusion from a major product rollout. Don't you think that if Apple thought HD Radio had any merit, they would have included it?

 

[HowardMBurgers]

So if I read between the lines, is it safe to assume that many of the folks that regularly post on this board don't like HD radio? Subtle to be sure, but I'm definately picking up that vibe. ;>)

Wait, before you respond, allow me a moment to hold up a piece of asbestos sheet over my monitor.

 

[Play Freebird]

Excellent points, Play Freebird. There ARE other countries where HD is doing pretty well (on FM). But of course you're right that most countries would have no need for the HD chip. It would add unnecessary cost. Still, some regional differences are necessary...75us vs 25us de-emphasis on FM, for instance. Not to mention the fact that Japan (and Russia) have different FM bands.

The Broadcom chips can handle anything from 76 to 108 Mhz (the new ones might even go down to 60 MHz) so there's no problem in Japan. As for the old CCIR band, the former Eastern Bloc countries are moving away from it. These chips have been available for over three years, here's more info if you're interested:

http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=815788

http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/2048-PB06-R.pdf

As far as I know, 25 uS de-emphasis was used only in conjunction with Dolby FM, which as you know, fizzled out in the '80s. 50 uS is the European pre-emphasis standard (also used in many other parts of the world), but in my opinion it really doesn't sound bad on receivers with 75 uS de-emphasis. When I've taken portables on various trips to Europe and listened critically on headphones, nothing struck me as being seriously wrong with the high frequency response.

The way many American FM stations process their audio, the actual pre-emphasis averages less than 75 uS due to heavy high-frequency limiting, so Apple should probably just stay with 50 uS. In fact, FCC rules allow 50 uS (or even less) here in the US; 75 is just the upper limit.

 

[Mike Walker]

Thanks for the correction, PlayFreebird. I obviously meant 50us, rather than 25us. I guess 25 is stuck in my mind for the very reason you cite, the old Dolby FM standard from the 70s.

By the way, Apple is NOT 'dead silent' on the HD issue. I-Tunes tagging was FIRST available on HD radio products, which wouldn't have happened without Apple's cooperation. Nothing I-Tunes related does! But obviously the feature no longer REQUIRES an HD radio.

My point about FM, and how it relates to HD, was that I've been shot down MANY times when suggesting that HD would one day come to pocket portables, usually being told "there will never be a radio in an Ipod, much less HD". That was my point, but I should have made it better.

Enjoy your evening!

 

[Chuck]

As much as I like radio, the really big news about the new Ipod is the fact that it has a video camera built in. That is what is getting attention, not he FM capability.

 

[Mike Walker]

I didn't see Jobs today (just a brief report on the news tonight). I've heard numerous reports about FM, but yours is the first I've heard about the video camera, Chuck. Still, I don't "have a dog in this race", as I'm a Rhapsody user, and use a Sansa View. If Apple EVER has an "all you can eat" plan for a monthly payment like Rhapsody, I might actually consider one of those I-things.

 

[scanman1]

I may actually, for the first time in my life, buy one. The only reason I never did is because it didn't have a radio. As far as including an hd radio, forget that crap! It likely wouldn't receive properly (much like that piece of junk Insignia radio, which I finally broke down and purchased, kept for a week and returned because of its inability to keep hd lock and problems with station "images").

 

[Mike Walker]

I wonder if there's some sample variation with the Insignia. The review of it in the new Radio World mentions maintaining lock in a moving car (something this type of portable isn't designed to do!), maintaining it INSIDE elevators in Manhattan, and suburban shopping malls, and receiving solid HD over long distances. The reviewer said the Insignia is more sensitive than any tabletop HD radio.

I'm considering buying one of these radios when Best Buy is restocked, so I'm interested in what you say about "images". I live in the deep fringe of most FM signals, but right under the "nose" of a 100,000 watt blowtorch here in Wilkes County (NC...a station I do production for). WKBC FM's signal is so strong that it appears at multiple points on the dial on all but quite good FM radios and tuners. This is the first test I always give a new radio...can it tune across the dial without receiving WKBC FM anywhere but their assigned frequency of 97.3!

 

[RadeoEngineer]

I wonder if there's some sample variation with the Insignia. The review of it in the new Radio World mentions maintaining lock in a moving car (something this type of portable isn't designed to do!), maintaining it INSIDE elevators in Manhattan, and suburban shopping malls, and receiving solid HD over long distances. The reviewer said the Insignia is more sensitive than any tabletop HD radio.

I'm considering buying one of these radios when Best Buy is restocked, so I'm interested in what you say about "images". I live in the deep fringe of most FM signals, but right under the "nose" of a 100,000 watt blowtorch here in Wilkes County (NC...a station I do production for). WKBC FM's signal is so strong that it appears at multiple points on the dial on all but quite good FM radios and tuners. This is the first test I always give a new radio...can it tune across the dial without receiving WKBC FM anywhere but their assigned frequency of 97.3!

My experience is that it does quite poorly in a mobile environment within a dozen miles of several Class C's. It does pretty well just out walking around or sitting on my deck, but it doesn't like the car one bit.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The Broadcom chips can handle anything from 76 to 108 Mhz

I must have missed something - has someone done a teardown on the new iPods and found broadcom in them? Silabs makes FM chips that also do RDS, and they don't do HD either. So that is two manufacturers making non-HD FM chips.

Pioneer goes so far as to use the HD adaptive IF chips in Supertuner 3-D car radios, but doesn't pay the license fee because they don't do HD decode. I haven't hacked into mine yet to see if I can activate the HD decode.

 

[Play Freebird]

I must have missed something - has someone done a teardown on the new iPods and found broadcom in them? Silabs makes FM chips that also do RDS, and they don't do HD either. So that is two manufacturers making non-HD FM chips.

No offical word, but I guess Broadcom is assumed to be supplier of the FM chip in the new iPod, since their product is also used in the iPhone 3G S. Bluetooth, WLAN, FM stereo and RDS all in one package for $5.95:

http://www.isuppli.com/News/Pages/i...ufacturing-Cost-iSuppli-Teardown-Reveals.aspx

 

[nd2023]

Forget about HD, if it doesn't tune to 87.7, I don't want it.

 

[KB1OKL]

By the way, Apple is NOT 'dead silent' on the HD issue. I-Tunes tagging was FIRST available on HD radio products, which wouldn't have happened without Apple's cooperation. Nothing I-Tunes related does! But obviously the feature no longer REQUIRES an HD radio.

Obviously Apple knows that HD is dead in the water and wanted to offer I-tunes tagging where it would actually be used. This is not good news at all for HD, it's just another of many another nails in the coffin.

 

[HowardMBurgers]

Why on God's green earth would Apple care about HD radio, let alone terrestrial radio of any sort? Apple wants to SELL you music via I-tunes.

The point that Apple has any sort of an opinion about HD radio by not including it in their products is a silly one indeed. For that matter, this Fuli apple, purchased at Costco that I'm eating at this moment, also doesn't have HD Radio capabilities. Does one reach a conclusion that both Costco and the orchard which grew this apple, is somehow against HD Radio?

Look, 99.998% of consumers don't know what HD radio is, nor do they care. Preaching to the choir with these looping rants on some discussion board isn't going to make it irrelevant any quicker. That ship has sailed...

 

[HowardMBurgers]

I wonder if there's some sample variation with the Insignia. The review of it in the new Radio World mentions maintaining lock in a moving car (something this type of portable isn't designed to do!), maintaining it INSIDE elevators in Manhattan, and suburban shopping malls, and receiving solid HD over long distances. The reviewer said the Insignia is more sensitive than any tabletop HD radio.

I bought one of the Insignia car radios at Best Buy ($199.00), and have to agree that it seems to function much better than even the more expensive brands from Kenwood or Panasonic which some of the local radio engineers own. Granted there are no AM HD stations where I live, so I can't comment on that part, but the FM-HD reception is quite exceptional. In driving around there are even some places where the multipath is pretty bad for analog reception, but the IBOC stream is solid. That surprised the heck out of me.

The bad part is the radio doesn't support any of the other "dot 2 or dot 3" channels, so I can't listen to the alternative content.

 

[Savage]

An HD Radio that won't tune to the subchannels? I wasn't aware that HD Radios were being marketed without the capability for HD-2 and HD-3. That's pretty limiting, given the marketing emphasis on the "stations between the stations" and increased choice over analog. Just curious - in which city are you listening with the extreme multipath?

I have to say: any reliance of the HD contingent on aftermarket car stereo, notwithstanding how well individual specific models work, is misplaced. Even moderately-priced new cars include car audio which is of far higher quality than factory radios have traditionally been, and incorporate proprietary interfaces with other vehicle electronics like nav/com and steering wheel control. The car companies have also become very strict and dogmatic about installation of aftermarket items like different radios or remote starters. If it isn't "factory" you can consider the vehicle warranty void - at least on the electrical system - if you install aftermarket stuff.

The upshot: unless the carmakers get universally on-board with HD a la XM/Sirius, HD is only going to wind up in older vehicles with no or expired warranties. Folks are pretty impressed with the audio available from factory car radio-CD plus satrad these days, so they're not likely to see the need for HD (see Howard's earlier comment about "98.998% being unaware of HD Radio.") Nor are they gonna want to void warranties or lose outboard functionality, etc.

 

[Chuck]

The bad part is the radio doesn't support any of the other "dot 2 or dot 3" channels, so I can't listen to the alternative content.

Really??? I thought the secondary channels were the big reason to buy a new HD radio. I've toyed with the idea of getting one, just to see how it works. Thanks for saving me some money.