Who would have thunk it? AUTOMAKERS GET HD COMPLAINTS.

[Savage]

I disagree with the assertion "HD is becoming the defacto standard in new cars." It may be appearing in more audio systems, but the population of stations originating HD remains stuck at about 14% of FMs and less than 2% of AMs, and those mostly daytime-only. Even with this feeble implementation, HD Radio reception is already proving to be a source of expense and irritation to the auto industry and its dealers (hence the title of this thread.) If this trend continues look for carmakers to demand analog-only technology, or else radio will be eliminated altogether. They don't tolerate unnecessary warranty claims in the car industry. Do we really want our industry to go the way of the cassette player in car audio systems?

Mark my words: if radio continues this mindless push for HD in cars, in ten years we're going to see the remaining radio listeners plugging outboard portables into AUX jacks. This will NOT be a positive development for the industry.

In the late 80s and 90s you could argue that C-QUAM had become the "defacto AM standard" because it was being included in a dominant number of car radios. It isn't any more, and I don't see any reason why the same fate couldn't befall HD.

 

[Ai4i]

I'm being bumped to a limited plan (or will jump ship to another carrier with limited plans).

Only if you choose to renew and get a new discounted handset.
A CDMA carrier will allow you to buy one from them at full price, and with a GSM carrier, just buy a new handset at full list price and transfer your SIM.
You can, at the very least, keep your current handset on your current plan until it dies.
I know people who are still on rate plans with free first incoming minutes.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Is HD really "becoming the de facto standard in all new cars"? Because only BMW, Mini, Scion, and Volvo include it as standard on all vehicles and some manufacturers (like Honda) don't include it at all, or (like Chrysler and GM) are putting it in very select models/packages.

Hardly a resounding endorsement by the big US automakers, for sure. Their "wait and see" attitude saved them from the debacle. More than any other industry - they trim pennies out of designs. Anything short of resounding consumer demand for HD radios, and they will pass. My wife heard HD-2 drop to silence in my car, and asked me to put it back on satellite. She has zero tolerance for DX'ing and problem reception. If its not making perfect music, she wants another station / band, etc. I expect she is typical of most people. They want the music on, reliable, no dropouts - or they will find something that DOES work. And that won't change, no matter how compelling the HD-2 format is, how much money the industry pours down this black hole, or who supports the system. HD-2 goes silent for several seconds before it comes back in lock. End of story - stick a fork in it - it is a fatal flaw from which there is no recovery.

 

[Carmine5]

Is HD really "becoming the de facto standard in all new cars"? Because only BMW, Mini, Scion, and Volvo include it as standard on all vehicles and some manufacturers (like Honda) don't include it at all, or (like Chrysler and GM) are putting it in very select models/packages.

To be clear, I said "IF HD Radio is becoming the de facto standard in new cars," I never said it was the standard. It does, however, seem that more and more carmakers are adding it to their line of cars.

 

[tomservo]

Satellite does have occasional dropouts. If I get stuck under a bridge. If I am in a tunnel (over the air and streaming also drop out completely). I suspect this is another big city tall building problem. But that would account for a small, but vocal minority of listeners. Area wise, the shadows of tall buildings are pretty small. There happens to be a high population density in downtown areas, but percentage of US population affected is still small. Satellite radio reception is the least of resident's worries in those congested areas.

Not every city is uniform. Check out this street view of US-90 (the main highway) in Mobile. Tell me how satellite is supposed to work here. The whole road is like this from downtown to midtown, several miles away. All the residential streets are pretty much the same. I encountered the same issue in the older parts of Savannah, where the satellite would mute and, except for the occasional belch of bits, stayed muted for minutes and minutes at a time. Even streaming works better here (and that's a 20% crapshoot on my carrier.) HD doesn't cut out nearly as much here. In fact I'd say it performs on par with analog here simply because all the HD stations' transmitters happen to be on the other side of downtown and Mobile Bay and there's some multipath issues because of the handful of tall buildings.

People here seem to put up with the daily dropout of all broadcast as most people here commute through one of two tunnels under Mobile Bay / Alabama River on a daily basis. Cell phones work (and so does streaming) but there's no radio at all. I find it strange that it hasn't been a priority to feed radio signals into the tunnels, but few seem to complain publicly about it. It's just "one of those facts of life".

Streaming - pick your carrier. If ATT sucks where you live, get Verizon. If Verizon sucks, get ATT. I've personally found that GSM systems like ATT and T-Mobile sound better and have more robust coverage. At least in Dallas, Houston, and LA. Verizon audio quality sucks, I can't understand the person on the other end. Same with Sprint - both are CDMA. Verizon in LA was a disaster. My daughter was missing auditions, call backs, and call times - something a professional actress cannot do. ATT, no problems. ATT streaming, no problems for me. There is a rural stretch of road where coverage is poor, but ATT fixed it with a new cell tower. Now coverage is solid. The only problem I have is that incoming calls make streams drop, setting them up is too complex to do while driving. Streaming is not ready for prime time yet, but if the incoming call problem could be solved, and the switching stations problem could be solved, then it might get popular.

T-Mobile has no 3G (HSPA) or 4G (HSPA+ or LTE) here, so they are out. I hate that, because I enjoyed their service immensely when I lived in Birmingham. The coverage trade off was worth the cost savings and their openness to bringing my own handset. That was back in the days when EDGE was considered high speed internet!

I'm on C Spire now (formerly Cellular South), a regional CDMA carrier that has great voice quality and coverage but really poor data. EV-DO Rev. 0 just isn't fast enough for today's apps or streaming.

Since I'm unhappy with my current phone (Galaxy S) I will be upgrading, so a new plan is required and their new "Infinity Unlimited" plans only include 30 minutes of streaming a month for what I'm paying now for true unlimited everything. Their idea of streaming also happens to include things like Dropbox, Facebook picture uploads, things like that. Weird, and one of the many reasons I'm eager to jump ship, probably to AT&T, who has HSPA+ here.

I will definitely re-evaluate my negative stance on streaming when I move to a more robust network, but the issue is still real: nearly half of cellular users are going to be on sub-optimal carriers or in rural areas without high speed internet. So for the foreseeable future, streaming is a dead end for most folks. With caps and overages, I don't see the format taking off for mobile use anytime soon.

Satellite fares better but since Uncle Mel crammed ten pounds of poo in an eight pound bag, all for the low low cost of $17/month per radio, it's not a viable option for anyone who wants better than telephone quality audio or niche programming, which has all but disappeared from the platform.

A friend who lives on the approach path to DFW has the exact opposite experience with HD. Less than ten miles from the airport, HD is useless to him, because every plane causes HD to lose lock. The signal dropouts are several orders of magnitude. A paltry 10 dB increase will do NOTHING to reduce dropouts of 60 dB - given the lock time of the HD system. And this is where the analog and HD dropouts are related. I am less than 20 miles from full class C, 100 kW stations running off of 2000 foot towers. I can see the towers. I still get HD dropouts, and that is with a Pioneer Supertuner 3D car radio, and a 31 inch whip. No problem with the radio - analog reception of Bob-FM from Austin, 170 miles away, is so solid I have it on my presets. But I still get HD dropouts on local stations with a car system considerably better than what Detroit would put into a car. You are lucky to get an antenna at all these days, 31 inch whips being phased out years ago for cosmetic reasons. 10 dB would not help. In the location where HD drops out, the analog signal is also weak, blending to mono. That is probably close to a 60 dB null, probably caused by moire patterns from the antenna bays / other towers / other antennas in the farm. The nulls are in the same places every day. A power increase on the HD sidebands would not help. Not nulls that deep. I suspect the same in just about every HD dropout situation. That moire pattern from the bays. A building. A water tower. A bridge. An airplane. 60 dB nulls. 10 dB will not help. Nothing will help. It is an inherent weakness with the HD system, and there is probably no solution, and more than there has ever been one for nulls.

I just don't understand this. I mean, the logic and math make sense and I don't doubt the veracity of your statements, but I have been thus far unable to replicate those conditions. Now granted, I don't live near a major airport but I AM surrounded by three navy outlying fields which see use 12 hours a day, banner planes flying ads to the beach (from less than a mile from my house), crop dusters flying quite literally directly over head (and waking me up at 7 each morning they're active) and no less than three very active municipal airports within 15 minutes' drive. Oh and Pensacola NAS is just over the line. Yeah, we got planes. And never once have I been able to coincide a dropout with aircraft activity. Not at home, not at the beach, not even in Pensacola with the Blue Angles flying around during practice.

Size of the aircaft aside, we'd seem to have similar circumstances here. High power co-located broacasters, lots of air activity. But I can't replicate those results. If I'm not moving and the signal isn't fringe, I don't get dropouts.

I still do not see HD-2 as the "killer application". The five second or longer lock time seems like an eternity to me, and I am more tolerant as a DX'er and person who knows how the system works. There are very few consumers who will put up with a five second lock time. Station owners know well they can never allow dead air, because even one second invites listeners to punch the preset of the next station. This is the Achilles Heel of HD - the lock time. iBiquity needs to FIX IT - NO EXCUSES!!!! Or the HD-2 advantage HD radio has will be meaningless.

I definitely agree with you here. Tuning directly to an HD-2, if a radio even allows such a thing, is pretty annoying. I don't think there's anything that can be done to fix it, though. Recapturing lock after a dropout is a lot faster on modern radios, though. My old Insignia takes 5 seconds or so to recover from the tinies of dropouts, but the later gen model just glitches and comes right back, often in less than a second. Annoying, but not a deal breaker.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Not every city is uniform. Check out this street view of US-90 (the main highway) in Mobile. Tell me how satellite is supposed to work here. The whole road is like this from downtown to midtown, several miles away. All the residential streets are pretty much the same. I encountered the same issue in the older parts of Savannah, where the satellite would mute and, except for the occasional belch of bits, stayed muted for minutes and minutes at a time. Even streaming works better here (and that's a 20% crapshoot on my carrier.) HD doesn't cut out nearly as much here. In fact I'd say it performs on par with analog here simply because all the HD stations' transmitters happen to be on the other side of downtown and Mobile Bay and there's some multipath issues because of the handful of tall buildings.

Well this is a case where I can't replicate your results. I drive streets like this in my commute every day. 60 foot dense trees lining both sides, street in shade, satellite is still solid.

[/quote]

I just don't understand this. I mean, the logic and math make sense and I don't doubt the veracity of your statements, but I have been thus far unable to replicate those conditions. Now granted, I don't live near a major airport but I AM surrounded by three navy outlying fields which see use 12 hours a day, banner planes flying ads to the beach (from less than a mile from my house), crop dusters flying quite literally directly over head (and waking me up at 7 each morning they're active) and no less than three very active municipal airports within 15 minutes' drive. Oh and Pensacola NAS is just over the line. Yeah, we got planes. And never once have I been able to coincide a dropout with aircraft activity. Not at home, not at the beach, not even in Pensacola with the Blue Angles flying around during practice.

You said it. Probably the size of the aircraft. But maybe also you are not on the direct path. It may take being right under the aircraft. I observed the phenomenon for years on analog FM when I lived in Midland. Granted, I was listening to Dallas FM and I was right under the approach path for the Midland airport, so I really can't say it was 60 dB variation there - but from what my friend in Dallas says - in apartments right along 360 in Arlington - HD is a lost cause because the planes come every three minutes. Analog FM is a mess as well.

I definitely agree with you here. Tuning directly to an HD-2, if a radio even allows such a thing, is pretty annoying. I don't think there's anything that can be done to fix it, though. Recapturing lock after a dropout is a lot faster on modern radios, though. My old Insignia takes 5 seconds or so to recover from the tinies of dropouts, but the later gen model just glitches and comes right back, often in less than a second. Annoying, but not a deal breaker

My Pioneer appears to have soft dropouts and hard dropouts. When the signal glitches momentarily, HD comes back pretty fast. But if you tune between HD-2 stations, every time you change it is five seconds. With Christian rock, two oldies channels, classic alternative, dance, and other formats on HD-2 only, I do a fair amount of channel surfing. The KSBJ folks mix hip-hop with rock, I think I like the Orlando HD channels better that separate them. And Mike Shannon's true oldies format appears to be on the old KRBE audio analog signal chain which was amazing in its day. But even they play clunkers from time to time. So, I just enjoy what is out there, looking for songs I like. The five second initial lock time is really annoying and intrusive.

HD radio presets can go directly to HD-2 channels, bypassing HD-1. Which is fine with me because the HD-1 format, particularly of KSBJ, is of absolutely no interest to me because it is sickeningly lukewarm. If HD is off, the radio waits several more seconds before locking on analog. KSBJ HD is notoriously unreliable - it was off again yesterday - so I default to a translator playing the very creative, good, and uplifting NGEN format. I am really happy with HD-2 formats on translators, by the way. It puts some choice back onto the radio dial for everybody.

 

[KB1OKL]

Satellite does have occasional dropouts. If I get stuck under a bridge. If I am in a tunnel (over the air and streaming also drop out completely). I suspect this is another big city tall building problem. But that would account for a small, but vocal minority of listeners. Area wise, the shadows of tall buildings are pretty small. There happens to be a high population density in downtown areas, but percentage of US population affected is still small. Satellite radio reception is the least of resident's worries in those congested areas.

Not every city is uniform. Check out this street view of US-90 (the main highway) in Mobile. Tell me how satellite is supposed to work here. The whole road is like this from downtown to midtown, several miles away. All the residential streets are pretty much the same. I encountered the same issue in the older parts of Savannah, where the satellite would mute and, except for the occasional belch of bits, stayed muted for minutes and minutes at a time. Even streaming works better here (and that's a 20% crapshoot on my carrier.) HD doesn't cut out nearly as much here.

Satellite is far from perfect in fact the music channels have all been in mono lately, but that being said Satellite very rarely drops out for me and I am constantly driving all over Ma including rural roads and towns. I have driven from one end of Vermont to the other end with few dropouts. I would have to say that satellite is the most relable form of radio here, it's right on par with AM except of course it's range is from one end of the country to the other. In my experience drop outs with satellite are the exception not the norm as they are with HD radio. I have a lifetime subscription but the last I knew it was about 12.00 a month

 

[tomservo]

Well this is a case where I can't replicate your results. I drive streets like this in my commute every day. 60 foot dense trees lining both sides, street in shade, satellite is still solid.

You must live somewhere with a repeater. I had XM years ago and was able to source a repeater map and they had hundreds of them (some of which were in violation of the license, if they were licensed at all!) The one in downtown Birmingham used to go off with alarming regularity, and the massive amount of RF and the tall buildings meant the radio would cut out for about a mile and a half on the interstate through downtown, simply because the repeater was off. It was terrible.

I can't speak for Sirius, but the closer to DC and NYC you are, the more likely you're getting XM off a repeater. They had a pretty decent network in the northeast, even in some smaller cities like Worcester. This was back before they invaded Canada, so when I would cross the border my signal would deteriorate rapidly. It was unusable in all the cities, even with relatively clear skies, because of the low angle of the satellites that far north. Open highways were no problem, but any tall trees to the south and it was gone.

I'll agree that satellite in general is far more reliable than HD or terrestrial since it's a national footprint, but it's far from perfect. But people WILL put up with dropouts to hear the content they want, otherwise there'd be zero sat. subscribers in the aforementioned cities without repeaters (Mobile, Jackson, Savannah, Vicksburg, etc.) One would HOPE that SXM has added repeaters to even these mid-size cities by now since their service is so widely available in cars as a standard feature. But then one would hope that the HD people would beef up their offerings and facilities with the service now more widely available in cars, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

 

[Tom Wells]

I got to audition XM many times in the early years in Avis rental cars, in various markets.

The only place it was acceptable was in open flatland.

Burlington, VT, is an excellent example of where the satellite signal itself worked so poorly it was funny.
They must have been one of the earilier recipients of a booster.

I'd say satellite should just go ahead and die already, if they need all those terrestial boosters, AND they're not even going to provide any different content than OTA.

How in the world did they ever get any exception for terrestial boosters anyhow? The'yre a "satellite" sevice.
Fix the @%$! satellite signal or join AM radio in calling for a lower noise level.

 

[Ai4i]

How in the world did they ever get any exception for terrestial boosters anyhow?

Because the presence of terrestRial repeaters allows them to serve the public more reliably within their allotted bandwidth. What is the issue with using technology to improve a service?

 

[Tom Wells]

How in the world did they ever get any exception for terrestial boosters anyhow?

Because the presence of terrestRial repeaters allows them to serve the public more reliably within their allotted bandwidth. What is the issue with using technology to improve a service?

Because then they're aren't a satellite system anymore. They're a multi-mode data service.

The need for such fill in coverage illustrates the inadequacy of the concept.

When technology application doesn't work well but the concept is weakened to permit band-aid operation as
the new standard, I'm not very impressed.

Seems to me satellite doesn't work very well, it requires special considerations beyond the scope of the original
service proposed.

Where do I sign up for special considerations?

I'm tired of corporations receivng "special considerations".

Especially for technology uses and abuses. IBOC, genetically modifed foods, etc.

 

[Ai4i]

Terrestrial gap fillers were within the original concept and they add a service without detracting anything. They would be even more usefull if the NAB, those guys who are always promoting localism, had not petitioned the commission to ban local origination.

 

[Casey]

I don't know why they need terrestrial repeaters for satellite. I really don't. I can get sirius everywhere, even in my garage. It never drops out. I definitely do not live near a repeater either.

 

[diymedia]

I don't know why they need terrestrial repeaters for satellite. I really don't. I can get sirius everywhere, even in my garage. It never drops out. I definitely do not live near a repeater either.

The vast majority of satellite radio listeners are receiving the service from a terrestrial repeater, especially in urban areas. There are more than 1,000 of them, and they run thousands, if not tens of thousands, of watts.

As a condition of the Sirius-XM merger, the companies paid $19.7 million in a consent decree to sort their egregious violation of the FCC's rules in setting up its terrestrial repeater network. This included turning off more than 100 repeaters that were either out of variance or completely unlicensed.

 

[tomservo]

I don't know why they need terrestrial repeaters for satellite. I really don't. I can get sirius everywhere, even in my garage. It never drops out. I definitely do not live near a repeater either.

Whereabouts do you live, Casey?

Sirius' system is a little more complex than XM, which uses stationary satellites. Sirius' satellites are always on the move, meaning there's an ever-changing angle or reception from two (or three?) overhead at any time. This helps eliminate "shading" of the signal that XM suffers from, but also means you can have reception fine for 15-20 minutes and no reception at all when the satellite you were hooked on to goes out of range. I've seen it at work when the receiver's antenna can only see one satellite. It'll work for a while, then crap out. Adjust the antenna, it'll work for a while, then crap out. It can be infuriatingly frustrating if you're in a marginal signal area, but overall I think the effect is more robust reception with fewer repeaters.

 

[Ai4i]

It can be infuriatingly frustrating if you're in a marginal signal area, but overall I think the effect is more robust reception with fewer repeaters.

Most people in the discussion groups agree.
I have never experienced Sirius, but I live in one of the best places for XM, South Florida, on the edge of the two footprints, but with high look angles. MobaHO! had only one satellite, but it was centrally located south of Japan and Korea. Why would anyone be opposed to having more terrestrial repeaters and with higher power if the objective is to serve the public best and not to reduce or suppress the effectiveness of the system? It would be a more efficient use of their bandwidth if they were allowed to do local program origination: traffic/weather, southern gospel, Spanish, sports, you name it.
When satrad 2.0 is completed, they will - we will - enjoy one network with the combined bandwidth of both.

 

[KB1OKL]

As I said before Satrad has it's problems among them lately all XM music channels are mono and the sound was never great. But at least for me drop outs have never been a problem, I recently drove to Va and back from Ma and don't think I experienced one drop out. I did stay on Rt 95 almost all the way and if XM uses repeaters I'm sure they would be servicing the highway, but I've been all over the NE and have not experienced a lot of dropouts. Now if they could do something about the abysmal sound I'd be happy.

 

[tomservo]

As I said before Satrad has it's problems among them lately all XM music channels are mono and the sound was never great. But at least for me drop outs have never been a problem, I recently drove to Va and back from Ma and don't think I experienced one drop out. I did stay on Rt 95 almost all the way and if XM uses repeaters I'm sure they would be servicing the highway, but I've been all over the NE and have not experienced a lot of dropouts. Now if they could do something about the abysmal sound I'd be happy.

95 was always solid for me, but I-81 between Bristol and Charlottesville in VA, there was a stretch or road where a mountain was right on the side of the road and it would die out (but only northbound) for a good four or five miles. That was annoying, but it was a very, very steep tall mountain.

 

[jhardis]

You must live somewhere with a repeater. ...

I can't speak for Sirius, but the closer to DC and NYC you are, the more likely you're getting XM off a repeater.

The dirty little secret of "satellite" radio is that the vast majority of customers get their signal from the terrestrial repeaters.

I once had a tour of the XM facility in Washington, and this was volunteered by their engineering staff.

- Jonathan

 

[Ai4i]

Since this thread has departed from the original "thunk", I wonder what is going on with this planned terrestrial subscription service!
I suspect that, as 1Worldspace tried, they will eventually lean toward more mainstream content.