Why are so many Full Power formats nationwide missing from Pittsburgh radio?

[Deleted member 110305]

Before anyone takes this the wrong way, I am not undermining Pittsburgh radio that does local well and is successful at doing so. But I've wondered for years why so many formats that are in a large amount of markets on full power signals (Urban, Urban AC, Rhythmic, Classic Hip Hop/Rhythmic AC, etc.) or translators (Spanish, Soft AC, Gospel, etc.) are not here. I think the general response would be "there's not a large enough audience for these formats". But how can a market like Youngstown have more of these formats with its size? With urban specifically, "WAMO is there" but it misses a lot of the audience it could reach with its bad FM signal. I think the radio dial here needs something new, a lot of the stations have kept the same old same old in what seems like a long time

 

[PTBoardOp93]

WAMO barely has any audience, so no one is rushing to take a slice of that pie.

It seems to me that Youngstown only has one Urban/Urban AC station, WAKZ. Unless you are counting distant reception of Cleveland/Akron stations?

 

[Deleted member 110305]

WAMO barely has any audience, so no one is rushing to take a slice of that pie.

It seems to me that Youngstown only has one Urban/Urban AC station, WAKZ. Unless you are counting distant reception of Cleveland/Akron stations?

Youngstown has WAKZ for Mainstream Urban, WLOA/W272EI Loud 102.3 Rhythmic with a Hip Hop emphasis, and Star 94.7 WGFT/W234CH Urban AC. Also WKTX 99.7/830AM which is a mix of R&B, Urban Gospel, and Urban Talk. Plus in parts of the market WENZ from Cleveland, which when I've listened at times will get listeners from the NW section of the area.

I'm wondering if WAMO barely has a audience due to the lack of signal. They still manage to register a 1.2-1.4 on average in ratings and the translator around the city has weak spots in downtown. I wonder if the addition of Y108 HD-2 has helped with that

I'm surprised I-heart hasn't tried to feed at least a HD-2 signal and put in a translator to compete, mainly surprised since this is done in markets with less of a average demographic for the format

 

[radiofan2023]

I think the general response would be "there's not a large enough audience for these formats".

Here's a Pittsburgh response: yinz aren't big enough for those formats n'at.

 

[lanceventa]

Before anyone takes this the wrong way, I am not undermining Pittsburgh radio that does local well and is successful at doing so. But I've wondered for years why so many formats that are in a large amount of markets on full power signals (Urban, Urban AC, Rhythmic, Classic Hip Hop/Rhythmic AC, etc.) or translators (Spanish, Soft AC, Gospel, etc.) are not here. I think the general response would be "there's not a large enough audience for these formats". But how can a market like Youngstown have more of these formats with its size? With urban specifically, "WAMO is there" but it misses a lot of the audience it could reach with its bad FM signal. I think the radio dial here needs something new, a lot of the stations have kept the same old same old in what seems like a long time

Simple. Demographics and the number of commercial signals compared to other markets.

 

[Deleted member 110305]

Simple. Demographics and the number of commercial signals compared to other markets.

Do some markets like Youngstown, Harrisburg, Toledo, Lexington, Ky, to name a few, have an overabundance of the format and struggle to generate what they need since the audience is spread out?

 

[lanceventa]

Do some markets like Youngstown, Harrisburg, Toledo, Lexington, Ky, to name a few, have an overabundance of the format and struggle to generate what they need since the audience is spread out?

You're comparing apples to oranges since Pittsburgh is much larger thank some of the ones you named.

Here's a simple comparison. Pittsburgh's (market 32) market population is 1,997,800, of which 193,300 are black. Cleveland's (market #37) population is 1,793,600, but its black population is 357,800 making a much larger audience available for Hip Hop, R&B and other "Urban" formats out of the total population as those are the audiences those formats are sold towards.

 

[Deleted member 110305]

You're comparing apples to oranges since Pittsburgh is much larger thank some of the ones you named.

Here's a simple comparison. Pittsburgh's (market 32) market population is 1,997,800, of which 193,300 are black. Cleveland's (market #37) population is 1,793,600, but its black population is 357,800 making a much larger audience available for Hip Hop, R&B and other "Urban" formats out of the total population as those are the audiences those formats are sold towards.

The apples to oranges comparison is what I mean in the sense that Pittsburgh is larger, and lacks these formats, when smaller markets have more. The cities I named have a much smaller black audience and have more of this format

 

[TheBigA]

The apples to oranges comparison is what I mean in the sense that Pittsburgh is larger, and lacks these formats, when smaller markets have more. The cities I named have a much smaller black audience and have more of this format

Radio formats aren't based on the size of the market. Radio isn't in the music distribution business. For that, you subscribe to a music service. Commercial radio chooses formats based on advertising. You don't subscribe or pay for it. The advertisers do. So if advertisers aren't interested in a music format, it's not available in that city. Unless someone wants to make it available as a hobby. If you want the formats available in other cities, all you have to do is stream their signal on the internet. Or move to that city.

 

[Deleted member 110305]

Radio formats aren't based on the size of the market. Radio isn't in the music distribution business. For that, you subscribe to a music service. Commercial radio chooses formats based on advertising. You don't subscribe or pay for it. The advertisers do. So if advertisers aren't interested in a music format, it's not available in that city. Unless someone wants to make it available as a hobby. If you want the formats available in other cities, all you have to do is stream their signal on the internet.

I understand what you are saying. This is still my point in the sense that it surprises me that a market with 193,000 black residents (and more across racial lines that would tune in to the formats), doesn't have advertisers interested in supporting a station when the smaller markets must. This isn't about personal preference, what you mentioned I already do and would think others would as well. This is more about making sense of the decent size population and advertisers not interested or seeing the potential

 

[TheBigA]

This is more about making sense of the decent size population and advertisers not interested or seeing the potential

Perhaps what you see as potential is not what they see. It's all about money. If the money isn't there, they're not going to offer something for free just because there's a large audience. UNLESS that large audience is willing to pay for it directly.

Let me give you an example: Tavis Smiley is a black former PBS host who saw a market for black talk in LA. So he paid $6 million to buy an AM station in LA, and is programming it in that format for that audience. It's one of the lowest rated stations in LA, and he's having trouble paying the $6 million for the station. But he saw a market for something, and he's doing it.

 

[Deleted member 110305]

Perhaps what you see as potential is not what they see. It's all about money. If the money isn't there, they're not going to offer something for free just because there's a large audience. UNLESS that large audience is willing to pay for it directly.

Understood, that's obvious. There must be enough advertising money in the smaller markets, that receive benefits from advertising on stations with those formats despite less general population

And also, from the example you provided, someone willing to at least give the format a chance

 

[TheBigA]

And also, from the example you provided, someone willing to at least give the format a chance

But he's now $6 million in debt, and had to sell his home to make payments. How many people are willing to do that?

In Pittsburgh, I remember someone buying KQV out of bankruptcy in a similar way. That's what it takes. Someone who's willing to risk their own money.

 

[Deleted member 110305]

But he's now $6 million in debt, and had to sell his home to make payments. How many people are willing to do that?

In Pittsburgh, I remember someone buying KQV out of bankruptcy in a similar way. That's what it takes. Someone who's willing to risk their own money.

Based on stations that succeed in other markets, it makes more sense to support a Mainstream Urban, Rhythmic, or Urban AC station rather than a AM Urban talk, especially without a FM signal. In Pittsburgh, The advertising must not be abundant enough for a competitor, that a company like Iheart loses money and if attempted, has to switch the format after a short amount of time

All speculation. I know the original WAMO had a tough time seeking advertisers before they sold in 2009. The recession didn't help

 

[TheBigA]

Based on stations that succeed in other markets, it makes more sense to support a Mainstream Urban, Rhythmic, or Urban AC station rather than a AM Urban talk, especially without a FM signal.

And once again, it doesn't matter what succeeds in other markets. People choose to live in Pittsburgh, not other markets. It's much warmer to live in Miami, but people still live in Pittsburgh. Same with radio formats. I've been to Pittsburgh. I had a sandwich at Primati Brothers and washed it down with an Iron City. I could have gone to Subway, but I didn't.

 

[Deleted member 110305]

And once again, it doesn't matter what succeeds in other markets.

I understand. The point is Urban Talk is not very successful in any market compared to Mainstream Urban, Rhythmic, or Urban AC

 

[lanceventa]

This is still my point in the sense that it surprises me that a market with 193,000 black residents (and more across racial lines that would tune in to the formats), doesn't have advertisers interested in supporting a station when the smaller markets must.

You're completely missing the point that while the audience may be larger in Pittsburgh than say Youngstown, the percentage of listeners matters too and where those listeners are. When WAMO was on 106.7, it didn't matter that it could be heard in New Castle or Butler or Washington PA because nobody there was listening. The smaller translator signal reaches where most of that audience is. And that's one station. You want to split that audience over multiple formats which would dilute the listening even further beyond the small percentage of the overall market.

Over 30% of all radio listening in Pittsburgh is to 3WS, WDVE and Bob-FM. Then add the effect that most Hip Hop/R&B listeners in Pittsburgh found alternate methods to listen to their music in the years where WAMO was gone and that Hip Hop radio in general has been hurt the most by listeners moving to streaming platforms. There's just not enough audience to superserve that audience that makes up less than 10% of all people in the Pittsburgh metro.

 

[FreddyE1977]

And once again, it doesn't matter what succeeds in other markets. People choose to live in Pittsburgh, not other markets. It's much warmer to live in Miami, but people still live in Pittsburgh. Same with radio formats. I've been to Pittsburgh. I had a sandwich at Primati Brothers and washed it down with an Iron City. I could have gone to Subway, but I didn't.

Thank you for making the effort to appreciate the local culture.

 

[TheBigA]

Thank you for making the effort to appreciate the local culture.

I love it. I'd gladly go back. They used to have a Shula's Steak House there too.

I stayed at a hotel downtown, just across one of the bridges from the stadiums.

 

[secondchoice]

WAMO was gone and that Hip Hop radio in general has been hurt the most by listeners moving to streaming platforms. There's just not enough audience to superserve that audience that makes up less than 10% of all people in the Pittsburgh metro.

Also the a small percentage of the lyrics can not be played on the air. Even in Atlanta there are some songs played OTA that really sound weird with the offensive lyrics cut out. Not a problem on streaming.

So your P1* is "split" between folks that will accept the edits and those that will listen to the stream to get the full meaning of the song.

This is nothing new even Jimmy Buffett and Charlie Daniels had two versions of songs released to radio stations because of the word (bitch) back in the 1970's. Somehow Elton John got "The Bitch is Back" thru. I guess it was about a missing female dog.

Warning:

The following could be offensive. Unfortunately I can't find any creditable sources to dispute these numbers do your own research. Please PM me or post if you find different.

Another factor in some markets is the statical lower income levels of black folks (urban's traditional P1) in the USA.

*P1 (old school radio term) traditionally was the group ( audience ) that you tested music on and your sales people pitched to advertisers.