Why Are Some Toronto FMs NOT on the CN Tower?

[Gregg]

Most of the major FM stations in Toronto have their transmitters on the CN Tower, allowing them to broadcast from high above the city, at 420.5 meters. or 1380 feet. Stations on the CN Tower include 91.1 CJRT, 94.1 CBL-FM, 97.3 CHBM, 98.1 CHFI, 99.1 CBLA, 99.9 CKFM, 100.7 CHIN-FM, 102.1 CFNY, 104.5 CHUM-FM and 107.1 CILQ.

But it seems a number of FMs are not on the CN Tower (or not broadcasting from the top). They include 90.3 CJBC-FM, 92.5 CKIS, 93.5 CFXJ and 96.3 CFMZ.

Some non-commercial, university or community FMs are not on the CN Tower because they're so low powered anyway. But why wouldn't the CBC put Radio-Canada Espace Musique CJBC-FM on the CN Tower if the other Toronto FMs (CBLA and CBL-FM) are on the tower? Why didn't Top 40 CKIS, Rhythmic CFXJ or Classical CFMZ go on North America's tallest free-standing tower?


Gregg
[email protected]

 

[fybush]

CBLA is not on the CN Tower. It's on First Canadian Place, aka the Bank of Montreal building, which is also where 88.1, 88.9, 89.5, 90.3, 92.5, 93.5, 96.3, 101.3, 105.1 and 106.5 are located.

The CN Tower master FM antenna system was designed for the Toronto FM dial as it existed in the seventies, and there was only minimal expansion potential built in - enough for 97.3 and not much else. Even if you could find space to do it in the fairly crowded transmitter area atop the tower, rebuilding the combiner and replacing the antenna would be a huge expense, more than the smaller stations on First Canadian Place could probably bear. And for a lower-powered station, the benefits of moving to CN would be questionable at best, since they'd have to take serious power reductions to compensate for the added height. That would mean losing a lot of building penetration within the city.

Then there's the issue of directionality - many of the stations on First Canadian Place are directional, while the CN Tower master antenna isn't.

 

[Ai4i]

How high is that bank roof and do the bank stations have higher ERP's to compensate?
Do the CN tower stations invariably get into Buffalo the best or does it depend?

 

[RBW]

How high is that bank roof and do the bank stations have higher ERP's to compensate?
Do the CN tower stations invariably get into Buffalo the best or does it depend?

The "roof" height at FCP is 971 ft.

The majority of those stations reach the Buffalo area pretty well. The difference between the two sights doesn't play that much of a factor... like you said, it depends. Some notable FCP exceptions are 95.9 & 96.3, which are adjacent to WJYE 96.1 Other exceptions are possibly 101.3 & 106.5 which operate with significantly lower power.

 

[e-dawg]

I can hear Toronto stations easier in Buffalo than vice-versa. The problem with Buffalo station in Toronto is #1 the adjacent channel, #2 location of the local Toronto radio station right in the heart of downtown will overspill 2nd adjacent channels, #3 the distance you can easily picked up Buffalo radio stations outside of the downtown or the main areas of Toronto for some odd reason.

 

[RBW]

#3 the distance you can easily picked up Buffalo radio stations outside of the downtown or the main areas of Toronto for some odd reason.

I'm sorry --- can you clarify that comment? (went over my head)

 

[RBW]

I can hear Toronto stations easier in Buffalo than vice-versa. The problem with Buffalo station in Toronto is #1 the adjacent channel, #2 location of the local Toronto radio station right in the heart of downtown will overspill 2nd adjacent channels,

Good points. #1 is very true w/the example of "JOY" which gets totally washed out by Zoomer's 96.3

 

[e-dawg]

#3 the distance you can easily picked up Buffalo radio stations outside of the downtown or the main areas of Toronto for some odd reason.

I'm sorry --- can you clarify that comment? (went over my head)

When I used to live in the Annex area of Toronto. I wasn't able to pick up Buffalo stations very well. CN Tower is located in the downtown area of the GTA. With the transmitter located in the downtown Toronto. Almost all of distance radio station are wipe out due to overload power from CN Tower. Also, when I tried to listen to Z103.5 near CN Tower. I recieved several interference due to the close proximetry of the transmitter.

 

[RBW]

When I used to live in the Annex area of Toronto. I wasn't able to pick up Buffalo stations very well. CN Tower is located in the downtown area of the GTA. With the transmitter located in the downtown Toronto. Almost all of distance radio station are wipe out due to overload power from CN Tower. Also, when I tried to listen to Z103.5 near CN Tower. I recieved several interference due to the close proximetry of the transmitter.

Yes, understood & quite understandable.

 

[Yeziknoradio]

I can hear Toronto stations easier in Buffalo than vice-versa. The problem with Buffalo station in Toronto is #1 the adjacent channel, #2 location of the local Toronto radio station right in the heart of downtown will overspill 2nd adjacent channels,

Good points. #1 is very true w/the example of "JOY" which gets totally washed out by Zoomer's 96.3

Classical 96 is a strong signal that likes to block Joy 96 from being heard in the Toronto market, but with the TS-3 (sold at Bay Bloor radio) the signal for Joy squeezed in.
However, it sounded like a really bad AM signal, and the station isn't always there.

 

[Gregg]

Someone asked earlier why it is harder to hear Buffalo stations in Toronto than to hear Toronto stations in Buffalo.

Buffalo, as most of the Northeastern U.S., is in the Class B territory for FM signals. That means stations in Buffalo are limited in power to apx. 50 kw at 500 feet. If you figure that Toronto stations on the CN Tower are about 1380 feet above average terrain, to comply with Class B rules, they'd be limited to only about 7000 watts. As you go up in tower height, you must go down in power. Stations on the Empire State Building in NYC, a bit higher up than the CN Tower's FM transmitters, are limited to around 6000 watts. Contrast that to most of the FM stations on the CN Tower putting out 38,000 watts (CBL-FM) to 44,000 watts (CHFI).

The FCC figured that in more densely populated areas, FM signals should be limited so more FM stations could serve more communities. So it established the Class B territory as most of the Northeast, down to Norfolk, Virginia, and west out to Chicago and Milwaukee. Also included was most of California, from Sacramento and San Francisco to the Mexican border. In other parts of the U.S., Class C FM stations are permitted up to 100 kw from a 1500 foot tower. Of course, today the rule is outmoded. Stations in Dallas, Houston, Miami, Atlanta, etc. are permitted all that Class C power while many rural parts of the Class B territory, such as Vermont and Pennsylvania, operate within the 50 kw/500 foot power limits.

In Buffalo, a few stations exceed the Class B restrictions because they were on the air before the rules were enacted, grandfathered now. WTSS operates with 110 kw at 1160 feet, similar to a CN Tower station. For many years, 102.5, then called WBEN-FM, was a Top 40 station dominating FM listening in Toronto when the Canadian government didn't permit Top 40 stations on FM. WDCX also runs 110 kw, but from a shorter tower. WNED-FM is at 105 kw and WBUF at 76 kw.

Gregg
[email protected]

 

[w9wi]

>In other parts of the U.S., Class C FM stations are permitted up to 100 kw from a 1500 foot >tower.

Just to be semantic... it's 600m, not 1500'. (600m is just shy of 2,000') Class B stations are also now metricized, 150m (492') instead of 500'.

 

[e-dawg]

Speaking of limitations I wonder why none of the stations in Toronto are able to transmit 100,000 watts instead of 35-44kw from CN Tower? Does Canada have geographical zoning restrictions like the United States i.e. California, Northeast (Illinois to Maine) and Puerto Rico (Class B only stations instead of Class C)?

 

[w9wi]

Speaking of limitations I wonder why none of the stations in Toronto are able to transmit 100,000 watts instead of 35-44kw from CN Tower? Does Canada have geographical zoning restrictions like the United States i.e. California, Northeast (Illinois to Maine) and Puerto Rico (Class B only stations instead of Class C)?

I don't know of geographical zoning in Canada.

The big CN Tower stations are in the Industry Canada database as Class C1. They're NOT grandfathered Class Bs. The big grandfathered stations in the U.S., like the 320kw Grand Rapids station or most of the major Los Angeles stations are all listed as Class B but grandfathered at powers in excess of what Class B should permit.

There are greater-than-B stations pretty much everywhere in Canada. Major Montreal stations are also larger than B. (and listed as C1) Likewise, stations across all of Ontario. Pretty much the rest of Canada would probably be Class C territory if it were under FCC jurisdiction.

That C1 listing is also probably what explains why the major Toronto stations are running 40-ish kw instead of 100. The FCC website is down for maintenance so I can't run the exact numbers but 40kw sounds about right for a C1 at 420m HAAT. Why they're C1 and not full C I don't know. I might guess to address international issues.

 

[e-dawg]

CKOI in Montreal is listed as 307,000kw 220M, but CTRC Classifieds as Class C1 instead of Class C.

 

[w9wi]

CKOI in Montreal is listed as 307,000kw 220M, but CTRC Classifieds as Class C1 instead of Class C.

That it is. Most interesting!

I wonder if there *is* geographic zoning, and full C's are only permitted at a greater distance from the border? The furthest south C I could find in Ontario was CFJB 95.7 in Barrie. (strangely enough, there is another station - CHAY 93.1 - with identical facilities and on the same tower, but classified C1. I found a similar situation in North Bay, with two stations with identical facilities (CHUR 100.5 & CKFX 101.9) with one a Class C and the other a C1)

 

[fybush]

I think - but do not know for certain - that the use of "class" in Canadian FM listings is primarily for the purpose of determining protection to US stations.

Unlike the US, Canada does not have an FM allocations table. Canadian FM signals are licensed on a contour-protection basis, similar to the way we do AM and noncommercial (reserved-band) FM south of the border, so there's not much need for a class system to determine station spacings. (I'm not even sure if the contour protections differ by class within Canada, in the way that our B and B1 stations get protected to 54 and 57 dBu instead of the 60 dBu protection for all other classes.)

I'd suspect, then, that the designations of the CN Tower FMs and CKOI and one of the North Bay stations as "C1" rather than "C" has to do with the international protections those stations receive, and I'd very strongly suspect that the CN FMs, in particular, are limited to "C1" protection internationally by the other stations that already existed across the border when the CN Tower was built. CHFI 98.1 is first-adjacent to WPXY 97.9 in Rochester and second-adjacent to WKSE 98.5 Niagara Falls, CFNY 102.1 is second-adjacent to WTSS 102.5 Buffalo, and so on.

I don't think distance from the border has much to do with it; there are full Cs on Mount Seymour in Vancouver, which is as close to the border as the CN Tower.