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Why Are There No All-News Stations in Red States?

G

Gregg

Ever notice all the all-news stations are in the large, mostly northern, cities... and all in Blue States?

In fact, the only Sunbelt city with all-news is LA, where both stations are profitable but struggle in the ratings. A couple of years ago, CBS tried to convert KRLD Dallas to all-news. They didn't give it much time to grow though. When the ratings dropped into the one-point-somethings, they started putting syndicated talk shows back on the station. It's now back up to the twos.

There's no all-news station in Houston, San Antonio, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Atlanta, Denver, Phoenix, Charlotte... no where in the South or Rocky Mountain States.

You'd think that with traffic problems growing and the need for news and weather updates around the clock, all-news would be more popular, even if it is an expensive format to run. If a tanker truck overturns on a major highway artery in Atlanta or Houston at 2:10pm or 2:10am, would any radio listener know (other than those tuned to the satellite services' traffic channels or maybe a once-an-hour update on the big talk station)? I don't think WSB or KTRH would break into Limbaugh with a traffic report.

Do red state radio listeners just not need all-news? Is Rush really "America's Anchorman"? Does Hannity tell them EVERYTHING they need to know? Or is it a sunbelt mentality? If the weather's nice most of the time, you don't need "Traffic and Weather Together" every ten minutes?

Here's the small list of All-News radio stations, all owned by CBS except for WTOP, KOMO, KQV and the Canadian stations. And all of them except in LA, Pittsburgh and Montreal are among their market's top AM stations.

NYC.....WINS and WCBS
LA.....KNX and KFWB
Chicago.....WBBM
SF.....KCBS
Philadelphia.....KYW
Detroit.....WWJ
Washington.....WTOP
Boston.....WBZ (talk at night)
Seattle.....KOMO
Pittsburgh......KQV (talk nights and weekends)
Toronto......CFTR
Montreal......CINF (in French. Uses French all-news TV audio overnight.)
Vancouver......CKNW





Gregg
[email protected]
 
I don't think "red states" has anything to do with it. The cost of running such an operation does.

How much do you think it costs to hire a staff of anchors, reporters, producers, editors, writers, etc? And, you need to do it 24/7/365 (or pretty darn close to it).

The staffing on an all-news station...done right...far exceeds the cost of hiring DJ's, one newsperson, one PD, and a production person.

When you add up the revenue potential in some of these "red state" markets you mention, all-news (done right) is cost-prohibitive. Perhaps not in some of the bigger markets. But, I think once you get below about market 25, one could call into question whether revenue potential could exceed the cost.
 
Oh yeah...one more thing.

The WSB's of the world do interrupt for mundane things like traffic updates.

I work for one of their sister stations. We interrupt as needed. Yes, even Limbaugh and Hannity. And catch holy you-know-what from the audience when we do. But...if news is your job, you interrupt when necessary.

Granted, there are some news-talkers out there who try to do it on the cheap. But, quite a few have full-time, dedicated news staffs operating 24/7 (or pretty close to it). Our station is in a market where GM is a big employer. When the announcement of the settlement of their recent strike was made (at 3:40 am eastern), we interrupted and went live. (And for up to an hour or so were the only media in the market airing the information.)

When traffic is a mess, we interrupt the talk programming for bulletins no less than every 10 minutes. Same goes for weather emergencies. Day or night. Weekday or weekend. We have producers who watch the networks and wires anytime day or night. And people at the station are on-call and will come running 24/7 if necessary. (At least 2 of the
programming people at the station can get there in 10 minutes or less.)
 
Morning drive time comes before the talkers start on WSB and complete with "Captain Herb" in the helicopter, they BEAT TRAFFIC TO DEATH. The problem is, in a city the size of Atlanta with people driving the way they do, Captain Herb and the other traffic team members talk so fast trying to cover everything there is to cover in traffic, you can hardly understand what they are saying. During morning drive time, WSB IS basically an ALL NEWS STATION.

It doesn't take much Hannity to upset my head and my stomach so I don't listen in the afternoon anymore so I can't tell you what they do about traffic then. :)
 
Big cities need all news. The big cities are in blue states. This somewhat self-explanatory, as the big cities, predominately "blue", dominate the rest of their respective states and turn them "blue". Which has more of an effect on California politics, LA and the Bay Area, or Redding and Chico?

BTW, plenty of stations have elements of all news. WTAM/Cleveland and WLW/Cincinnati are examples of stations in medium markets with 24/7 traffic. KTAR/Phoenix does traffic 7 days from 5a-midnight. In all three cases, it's more useful for branding than it is for actual listeners at 11:45 at night.

Things are actually moving the other way - stations in the cities you mentioned can't even support news blocks in AMD or PMD. KTAR just dumped its PMD news block for talk, and trimmed their AMD block by 30 minutes. KOGO/San Diego just hired a talker to replace its morning news. When secondary talk stations started up several years ago, they went after the heritage station in the morning by hiring guys with opinions who yelled and screamed. Since that what talk radio has become most of the rest of the day, people eventually said F it to the news and listened to the yellers in AMD, too. After all, the news is everywhere these days. Radio is about entertainment.

If you don't believe me, look at the stations outside of top-10 markets with successful, serious news morning shows. They are mostly in cities where the biggest talk competition is an upstart Salem talker on a marginal signal. Or really, REALLY heritage stations. WTAM has a morning news show, but is in one of a few markets with no real news/talk competition. KMJ/Fresno. Insert your city here. Or, there are some cities that just must really love the news - Spokane has three talk stations each with morning news shows of various lengths.
 
At teh risk of being agreeable, Mr. Roberts has it pretty close. All news done right is expensive. Assuming each anchor was on for 1/2 hour and off for a half hour and 6 hour air shifts you would need 8 FT people jsut to do M-F anchoring plus weekends, plus producers, writers, editors and....a novel thought these days...reporters. Probably couldn't do it for less than 30 people (ok..maybe 25) at $40k a year. Outside the top 25 that is prohibitively expensive....in these days of corporate driven 30% ROI. It would be a different story if stations were owned again by people instead of bean counters who don't know the difference between a broadcast license and a food vendors license for 7-11.
 
And just to add confusion to the mix...two top news operations here in Ohio actually air...MUSIC.

And both operations have a track record.

Again this year, the Associated Press recognized among Ohio's large markets...noncommercial WKSU 89.7, the NPR station based at Kent State University whose programming is largely classical music. The station received five AP awards for its staff in 2006.

http://www.wksu.org

And also again this year, the Best News Operation in Ohio's medium markets was...Akron's locally owned 1590 WAKR/97.5 WONE/94.9 WQMX, which play adult standards, rock and country, respectively.

http://www.akronnewsnow.com

At least here in Ohio, the most successful news operations don't mix their news with Limbaugh and Hannity, but instead with the Cleveland Orchestra, Dean Martin, The Pretenders and Rascal Flatts.

http://www.ap.org/ohio/oapbwin.html
 
In market # 75 (Wilmington DE) we have two news/talk stations WDEL and WILM. Our market has a population of about 580,000. Both stations have morning drive time newscasts from 6am-9am, then both go to live and local talk. Both stations have a mid day newscast (WILM's is a half hour from 11:30am-noon so they can get Limbaugh at noon. WDEL has an hour newsblock from noon to 1pm. Then WDEL stays live and local talk and WILM goes to the bird. In the afternoon drive time, WDEL has an afternoon drive time newsblock from 4pm-6pm, WILM stays on the bird with Hannity incerting traffic/weather/newsheadlines during spot breaks and on the hour and 1/2 hour. Both will cut away from programming for breaking news. WDEL does more of this as their talk is all local vs WILM in the afternoon is on the bird with Rush and Hannity. One down side for afternoon news at WDEL is during baseball season they carry the Phillies so many days their afternoon newsblock is pre-empted for the ballgame.

Our market may be a bit different than most, which might explain how two news/talk stations can survive in market #75. Our market does not have any local television outlets other than a PBS station. So TV news is from Philly and local radio (WDEL/WILM) and the Wilmington News Journal are the only real sources of Delaware news and local information for the Wilmington area.

As far as the blue county/red county thing goes, Delaware is a blue state, because New Castle County (where Wilmington is) is a blue county. The other two counties, Kent and Sussex have far less population, but are red counties. Interestly, WDOV in Dover (owned by Clear Channel, who also own WILM) broadcast a simulcast of the WILM morning drive time newscast so 2/3'rds of the state does get a morning drive time newscast. As you might guess, the WILM/WDOV traffic reports covers both Wilmington and Dover, with weather temps reflecting both areas as well.
 
With all respect to Mike the thread was about all-news not news talk. He is more than just a little fortunate to have to live and local stations in his market.

Now one can only hope WTOP continues to do well.
 
To answer some questions above....

First, I don't think it's that owners haven't TRIED to put all-news on in Sunbelt markets. It's that audiences didn't accept them. (And to the poster who said most of the big cities are in blue states, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Atlanta and San Diego are all pretty much as large or larger than Seattle. And KOMO Seattle only switched to all-news a couple of years ago. KOMO it's the newest successful all-news station, supported by its sister TV station and by being the flagship of the Mariners.)

As I explained, CBS tried all-news in Dallas on KRLD. The format was running 24/7 but the ratings sank to the ones. KTRH Houston had been all-news by day, talk at night, like WBZ Boston, but gradually added more talk shows to where it's now only news in the morning... and even then, there's a separate "newscaster" and "host" handling the morning chores.

Miami had all-news in WINZ, modelled after New York's WINS but that failed sometime in the 80s. KOGO was all-news at one point in San Diego before it became talk.

Yes, all-news is very expensive to run. WINS has 3 morning anchors, 2 middays, 2 afternoons, 2 evenings and one overnight. WCBS has 2 morning anchors, one midday, two afternoon, one evening and two overnight.

But the biggest talk stations have similar sized staffs. A good talk host commands more money than a news anchor, yet only is on the air 3 hours usually. And talk needs producers, board ops and screeners. The really top talk stations have local hosts in most dayparts. Surely the payroll at KTAR Phoenix, KOA Denver, WSB Atlanta, etc. runs higher than an all news station would.

Even if a secret billionaire bankrolled the operation for the first three years, I'm not sure most Sunbelt or near-Sunbelt markets would support an all-news station.

Hey, apart from the Rush station, it's hard in most Sunbelt cities to get anyone to budge that dial off the FM music stations. Only one AM talker makes decent ratings in Atlanta, Charlotte, Houston, Austin, Raleigh, Tampa, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Tuscon, Albuquerque, Denver, Birmingham, Richmond, Norfolk, etc.

In the Sunbelt, only LA, SD, Phoenix and San Antonio have competitive talk stations. (And Miami if you count the Spanish/Cuban talk stations.)

Maybe folks in the Sunbelt really don't care about anything but getting a good tan?





Gregg
[email protected]
 
I have to wonder if we have allowed the definition of viable and valid news content get out of hand. It is SO EXPENSIVE to do all news because we expect miracle coverage in every quarter hour. The TV people have "urinated in the punchbowl" if you please with their "If it bleeds, it leads" mentality along with "If there is flame, it is our game." (In a market of 3 to 4 million people, a simple small housefire gets significant dinnertime coverage only because the helicopter was nearby, and there were visible flames! How many similar or even larger housefires were there today during the soaps that will never get mentioned and never written up in the paper?)

So I sit down to eat dinner. I would like some in depth news coverage of MEANINGFUL things that have happened today regarding the Atlanta water crisis. (That is VERY local for me.) Instead I get a piece that reminds the audience that we have a helicopter and a satellite truck. We were there when the governor of Georgia and the governor of Alabama escalated the abraisiveness of the name calling today. That is not THE news.... just a small sideshow to it.

So now over in the radio newsrooms there is apparently the feeling we must somehow choose our content and deliver in a style that demonstrates that radio is more now, more spectacular than is TV.

Some afternoons at work I pull up the on-line of WGN. By the time they blank out the commercials with some music, they get so laid back in the remaining news content which can include some book author of some obscure book sometimes.... they make NPR news sound like they are on steroids.

If their ego will let them sound that way I would think some smaller market stations could afford to be all news. Now, can we find some sales people who have the proper mix of ego to sell something like that?
 
You can thank Joel Cheatwood at WSVN for the "If it Bleeds It Leads" philosophy. You'll find no disagreement from me that an all news station could make money without all o fthe bells and whistles. Problem is just the sheer number of people you need to cover news. then there is re-write (anchors can't and shoul dnot have to do it all) some production people and producers.

Turn the tempo of the newscast down a shade and you aren't running through copy like a lawnmower runs thru grass. that takes the stress load and material needed to feed the dragon down one notch and makes it "doable" in the smaller markets.

The real kick is to get sales people who sell.

"You can close more business deals in two months by becoming interested in other people than you can in two years trying to get people interested in you"
Dale Carnegie
 
I think the real problem is low education levels in Sunbelt markets. News and talk formats do better with educated demos. Liberal Seattle is far more of a hotbed for conservative (and liberal) talk radio than is conservative Charleston, South Carolina. It doesn't help that so many Sunbelt cities were settled late and have few or no class A AM stations.

WINZ in Miami did try to expand its news format to the Tampa and Orlando markets in the 90s (see thread on Tampa Board):

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,63886.10.html
 
I think the real problem is low education levels in Sunbelt markets.
Click to expand...


Ah, my friend.... In the sunbelt our population is divided into two major groups: "The Good Ol' Boys" and the "Bubbas". Has anyone ever explained to you the dynamic that goes on there? The Good Ol' Boys are the ones who PRETEND to be dumb.

You have to think about that one awhile.

I spent over half a lifetime in the rustbelt.

I don't buy your low education level explanation. Particularly in the large markets where we might expect an all news opertion to be viable.
 
Now that everyone has finished with their sterotypes of the sun-belt versus the rust belt we are failing to note one point. NPR rules in many sun-belt states. These stations are almost enirely news/talk, most having given up any major music programming (the occasional thistle and shamrock type program is left). In North Carolina it is not unusual to live somewhere with 2 or more NPR stations. They have local news bits as well. Sure it isn't quite the same thing as a WBZ type operation but how could a WBZ start-up compete against a non-profit like NPR operating on a university campus? All news is trying to compete against NPR and for the most part that's a losing proposition.
 
Whoops! With you 'til the next to last line! Have you listend to some of the NPR stuff lately? It is badly done, poorly delivered college radio except for some of the good national stuff.

Unfortunately NPR does so well because no one is willing to compete with them. Oftentimes their news is "snooze."
 
Unfortunately NPR does so well because no one is willing to compete with them. Oftentimes their news is "snooze."

I've listened to both all news KYW in Philly, and the two newstalkers in Wilmington (WDEL & WILM) when they are doing drivetime news blocks. After the first half hour, it's a repeat (that's a snooze) even when they've written the story three different ways with different sound, etc so it's not word for word each half hour, ( I used to work as a reporter at WILM). NPR's All Things Considered , Morning Edition, Day to Day, Here and Now are all far most interesting newsprograms. The Philly NPR station (WHYY-FM) also does a good job covering the local news of the Philly-Wilmington-Trenton region without covering one of the "if it bleeds it leads" type stories. They will cover major local tragedy type stories, but generally not as the lead, without the hype, and they do cover other stories the commercial gang ignores. So I'd have to disagree with you on that point. Yes KYW does rank higher than WHYY in the 12+ Philly ratings, but WHYY is in the top 10-12 spot in Philly if I recall correctly, might be higher.

The NPR approach is a more laid back approach, no hype, with more indepth coverage of a news story than the typical :40 story usually aired on a newsradio station.
 
justareporter said:
Whoops! With you 'til the next to last line! Have you listend to some of the NPR stuff lately? It is badly done, poorly delivered college radio except for some of the good national stuff.

Unfortunately NPR does so well because no one is willing to compete with them. Oftentimes their news is "snooze."
Click to expand...

I find major differences between individual NPR stations local coverage over the years and would say it's too hard to generalize. Few do a good job, most are fair. Now let's talk about the other competitor: Local TV stations. They do almost the same thing old news radio did.
 
Gregg said:
A couple of years ago, CBS tried to convert KRLD Dallas to all-news. They didn't give it much time to grow though. When the ratings dropped into the one-point-somethings, they started putting syndicated talk shows back on the station. It's now back up to the twos.
Click to expand...
KRLD was all-news through the 80s, especially 1987.
I recall listening to them at night at the state park I was camping in in a more northerly state. The anchors read and read and read news, business news, sports, weather, etc., at all hours into the evening.

KRLD moved into more talk programming after KLIF became successful with the format with David Gold and Kevin McCarthy, two Dallas and Texas talk radio legends.
 
I going to have to respectfully disagree with Mike at least in part...the "if it bleeds" stuff is still news...something that is usually lost on many of the NPR assignment editors. WHYY has the benefit of existing in a large metro. Go listen to thje NPR outside of the top 25....it is college radio.

Incidentally, I HATE most local radio news because it is now no longer local but done by a centralized rip 'n read news hub. Every year there is less and less local news done by people who actually know where stuff is. There ore obviously a few notable and noteworthy exceptions to this rant...but once again outside of the top 25 or so things get ugly fast.

Just let us not pass NPR off as great radio news. Most of it is not...some..thank God ...really is.

But they could all use some Starbucks in the morning.
 
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