WHY CORPORATE RADIO IS KILLING OLDIES

[hornet61]

A friend of mine has a $1,500 turntable and a $2,500 cartridge/Stylus ....some foreign carts sells for $7,000. My 66 year old ears probably cannot hear a $7,000 cart any better than a $50 cart...maybe i have never paid attention over the years, I cannot tell the difference soundwise between records and Cd's. having said that , from a maintenance standpoint I prefer playing cd's over vinyl.....only recently started playing all mp3's...and i have finally heard the inferior sound of MP3 vs cd's and vinyl.

 

[howardm]

I have a Shure Type IV cart & when I needed a new stylus I was forced to use a their M97HE. Thanks to the internet I found a stylus for my beloved type IV, definitive difference in clarity & highs, more brilliant. That's a V15 Type IV to be accurate.

 

[landtuna]

...and i have finally heard the inferior sound of MP3 vs cd's and vinyl.

I'll never forget the first stereo I had that had an FM radio in it and the difference in sound listening to Oldies songs that I had previously heard only on AM radio. The difference between CD's and MP3's is nowhere near that drastic.

 

[hornet61]

...and i have finally heard the inferior sound of MP3 vs cd's and vinyl.

I'll never forget the first stereo I had that had an FM radio in it and the difference in sound listening to Oldies songs that I had previously heard only on AM radio. The difference between CD's and MP3's is nowhere near that drastic.

In The Past I couldn't tell the fifference between Cd and Mp3 , I thought they sounded the same ,because i listened to one or the other..Recently I put together a new DJ sytem that has both a cd player and the new Vortez MP3 player...I player both Cd's and MP3's back and forth (allows 4 players cued up at all time vs just two) now that I listen to them side by side .. the CD is louder and sharper than the MP3....the Mp3 is absolutely useable, I use that 75 % of the time between car stereo ,my computer and DJ equipment...I am just saying, when you hear them side by side, I personally can hear the difference...that's all I a saying.

 

[TheFonz]

In The Past I couldn't tell the fifference between Cd and Mp3 , I thought they sounded the same ,because i listened to one or the other..Recently I put together a new DJ sytem that has both a cd player and the new Vortez MP3 player...I player both Cd's and MP3's back and forth (allows 4 players cued up at all time vs just two) now that I listen to them side by side .. the CD is louder and sharper than the MP3....the Mp3 is absolutely useable, I use that 75 % of the time between car stereo ,my computer and DJ equipment...I am just saying, when you hear them side by side, I personally can hear the difference...that's all I a saying.

I'm just getting into Mp3s, so I'm still learning. I'm told that Mp3 sound quality depends on the "bit rate". Also, I've heard that Wav files are equal to CD quality, but Wav files take up about ten times as much space as Mp3 files. Is this correct?

 

[landtuna]

I'm just getting into Mp3s, so I'm still learning. I'm told that Mp3 sound quality depends on the "bit rate". Also, I've heard that Wav files are equal to CD quality, but Wav files take up about ten times as much space as Mp3 files. Is this correct?

In a nutshell, yes. Generally, a bitrate of 320kbps @ 44kHz is a rough sound equivalent of a CD but there are some additional things that can determine the listening quality of both types of recordings. The original recording is the most important as most MP3's are ripped from CD's or are downloaded over the 'Net. Some CD's are quiet and not over driven and others are noisy and over driven. The ripped MP3 will mimic the original no matter what the bit rate selected. Generally, a bit rate of 128kbps @ 44kHz is considered the minimum for music listening.

If you download a music player like WinAmp (free) you can see the bit rate as the music is played. Be aware that some recordings are constant bit rates and some are variable so you might see the bit rate jumping around as the song is played.

 

[JH_Radio]

I always prefer wav files. 16-bit PCM 44100 HZ Stereo. Though if a song is in mono (as in mono oldies, i change the wav file to a mono one.) As far as mp3's, i'm always for 320 KBPS. I recorde airchecks at 320KBPS for FM Stereo and 128KBPS mono for AM monon stations. Likewise i request these when trading, if its via mp3.

 

[hornet61]

In My case the beauty of the MP3 system is this, I have a computer song library song of approx 25,000 cuts, made up of around 16 genre's..50's, big band , classic rock, etc...initially i created a, let's say a 60's file, of the top 40 hits and a 60's file of the lower charting stuff. the two files had about 2,500 songs..i hooked my MP3 player and i realized I cannot manipulate a 2,500 song file , it takes forever to find a song when you are doing a job. I broke them down to 10 folders of 250 cuts. Make a long story short with many many duplicates, the library is now at 62,000 cuts. Well known songs like "My Girl" are in many different folders 60's, soul, top 100 tunes of all time, 4 different class reunion files stc...in the end with an MP3 player you can hook up to an external drive and have the capability to carry all 65,00 songs to every gig, not that i do that, or recommend it, but, you can't do that with wav files. It just an option avaliable with MP3 players...The Vortex 1000 MP3 player is $395.00 it has three usb ports, it looks and works exactly like a DJ CD controller. I believe It is made by American DJ ? I kept my Cd player in the system as back-up and additional player... the problem with doing oldies is they are so short, you are at a frantic pace all night. i am working on a universal folder for gigs and turning it loose on shuffle play, and drink more beer.

 

[northwoods]

You read the lies why Doo Wop isn't heard on the radio and why generally radio sucks, well, read the truth....http://www.walkerpub.com/radio_consultants.html
http://spectator.org/archives/2012/07/20/who-killed-rock-radio
http://www.tragic96.com/brethren.htm

Since you are posting the same drivel to multiple sections of this discussion group, here is the response to your same post on the Sallas board:

http://radiodiscussions.com/smf/index.php?topic=229735.0

In any event, "oldies" as a format has died and either gone away or been replaced by "classic hits" because the demographics of traditional oldies stations are unsalable in the rated markets where much of the revenue depends on ratings in specific age groups.

The same nonsense that hasn't been proven. Your response is proof that what this DJ says is true 100%
http://www.walkerpub.com/radio_consultants.html

This reminds me of an article in similar fashion of the discussion going on. Granted it's almost 10 years old, but much of what has been discussed already rings true in this article. And it pains me to say that since I agree with DOOWOPVAULT.

http://www.web.archive.org/web/201212175058/http://www.superoldies.com/insider.html

 

[northwoods]

Good point, advertisers don't care about targeting the older generation because they don't think we buy anything. LOL

Nope. They don't target 55+ because, while they buy, it takes more advertising impressions to make the sale, thus removing or reducing the profit on each sale.

I have no data to back this up, but I wouldn't doubt that younger folks listen to radio even LESS than us oldsters, since they use hand held mobile devices much more than us old folks. My kids, who are in their 30, seldom listen to radio. Their Ipods have literally thousands of tunes on them and they might tune in to radio for traffic reports but that is all.

While the number of hours per week of usage by 18-34 is declining, still about 92% or better (it varies by market) use radio every week.

Studies have shown that the average iPod has only a few hundred songs on it, not thousands.

I'm not sure why anyone would ever BUY a CD in this day and age.

That's like wondering, in 1985 or so, if anyone bought vinyl any more. It's just a change in distribution.

I've never been in the industry, but I just can't help but think that the future of commercial radio is pretty bleak.

Not really. The future is one of decline for AM and FM transmissions, but radio is not in the transmitter business. Stations are making their content and variations on that content available in new media streams, and that will be the future of radio.

David, IMNSHO, the reason the advertisers are not targeting the 55+ is just plain laziness. They have to work harder to attract them, and they can't be bothered doing so (even though they have more money than the 18 yr olds).

 

[landtuna]

David, IMNSHO, the reason the advertisers are not targeting the 55+ is just plain laziness. They have to work harder to attract them, and they can't be bothered doing so (even though they have more money than the 18 yr olds).

In fairness to DE, what you stated is exactly what he has been saying all along. It takes more effort (and therefore more money) to sell to an older person than a younger one.

I'm not sure I agree with that 100% because some things, like toothpaste, are pretty easy sells to anybody even if the older person has been using one brand for a number of years. The cost of the product isn't high enough that it creates a financial hardship should it not live up to its billing.

OTOH, if KIA wants to sell an oldster a Soul they better not advertise it with "Party Anthem" and lots of flashing neon lights on the speakers. Most older folks worked hard for their money and will not spend it on anything that looks frivolous. If KIA wants to sell me a Soul make up an ad that appeals to my sense of value, perhaps a bit of whimsy, reliability etc. That is what the primary interests of older folks are and yes, it would require a different approach than selling to the college-age crowd. If KIA doesn't think they can sell Soul's to aging Boomers then they will not spend the money. Apparently that mantra is universally accepted by marketing genius's. I would remind them there are plenty of companies that do not overlook my generation and profit by that relationship - and we are not talking just Depends and Geritol. ;D

 

[PirateJohnny]

To get this thread back on topic, we should quote the famous line that Moe uttered when the Stooges played janitors in a radio studio (Micro-Phonies, 1945): "Quiet, numbskulls, I'm broadcasting!" When Jack Armstrong was on radio in Los Angeles (KTNQ, KFI, KKHR) he always played that line as part of his ID.

FINALLY! Now I know which episode this is from. Thanks!!

 

[davideduardo]

In fairness to DE, what you stated is exactly what he has been saying all along. It takes more effort (and therefore more money) to sell to an older person than a younger one.

I'm not sure I agree with that 100% because some things, like toothpaste, are pretty easy sells to anybody even if the older person has been using one brand for a number of years. The cost of the product isn't high enough that it creates a financial hardship should it not live up to its billing.

At a seminar some years ago, a former marketing manager from one of the P&G brands explained that lower cost items are particularly sensitive to the advertising portion of the total product cost. Because so many have to be sold and because the per item price is low, they can only afford to market to heavy users who will be immediately influenced by advertising.

An example is beer. The heavy users are close to 100% male. While women buy beer, their preferences are generally influenced by a male member of a household so advertising is not directed to females and media is bought to reach 21-49 males. Any other groups are not desired because the cost of making the sale is not compensated for by commensurate heavy purchases.

OTOH, if KIA wants to sell an oldster a Soul they better not advertise it with "Party Anthem" and lots of flashing neon lights on the speakers.

Funny, but I love the hamsters and lights (they are LED, not neon). When shopping for a utility car, I saw a very pimped Soul with pin striping and other gear, and ended up buying it instead of a Sorento or Tucson or X3. I'm frequently reminded of the ad, since I have the scene of the critters rolling deep in their ride on a city street from one of the spots as a background on one of my computers.

And I like LMFAO and "Party Anthem", too. "Good beat, and you can dance to it."

If KIA doesn't think they can sell Soul's to aging Boomers then they will not spend the money. Apparently that mantra is universally accepted by marketing genius's.

KIA and the other "toaster" car makers are well aware of the senior appeal of such cars. It's been written up in articles in places like Business Week. Seniors like the ease of entry, the cargo space that is accessible without bending over into a trunk, the visibility, etc. And they also like "cute" and the hamsters fit that bill for KIA. Most oldsters do not want to see ads showing senile seniors drooling over a product.

I would remind them there are plenty of companies that do not overlook my generation and profit by that relationship - and we are not talking just Depends and Geritol. ;D

But, in general, radio is not the medium used to market specifically to seniors.

 

[davideduardo]

This reminds me of an article in similar fashion of the discussion going on. Granted it's almost 10 years old, but much of what has been discussed already rings true in this article. And it pains me to say that since I agree with DOOWOPVAULT.

http://www.web.archive.org/web/201212175058/http://www.superoldies.com/insider.html

That article is so full of c--p that it would take pages to rebut all the misinformation.

The writer has no knowledge of radio. Take the comment about advertising "The marketing company handles the commercials.." as if there were an intermediary hired by the radio station to sell ads when, in fact (except for national reps for non-local accounts) stations have their own sales staffs.

The idea that stations select the music they play to enhance advertisements is unique in that I thought I had heard them all. That's so absurd, and so off the wall that it deserves memorializing as stupid beyond all belief.

Stations select music to appeal to the largest number of people possible within a particular format area, and generally they get extensive and expensive listener feedback to make those selections. Formats are picked to appeal to an age group that has advertiser demand, with the current competitive array in the market in mind.

There are no black helicopters here.

Oh, and a final comment on the link:

The writer says of Clear Channel "With 103,000,000 listeners in the U.S. and 1,000,000,000 globally (1/6 of the world population), this powerful company has grown unchecked, using their monopoly to control the entire music industry."

In fact, except for a minority interest in a few stations in Mexico and a short incursion into one or two countries of Europe, Clear never had an international presence in radio. So that statement is just a lie... but the whole diatribe is full of untruths, exaggerations and misinformation.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

In fact, except for a minority interest in a few stations in Mexico and a short incursion into one or two countries of Europe, Clear never had an international presence in radio. So that statement is just a lie... but the whole diatribe is full of untruths, exaggerations and misinformation.

Clear Channel has a joint venture with APN in Australia and New Zealand as well.

 

[davideduardo]

In fact, except for a minority interest in a few stations in Mexico and a short incursion into one or two countries of Europe, Clear never had an international presence in radio. So that statement is just a lie... but the whole diatribe is full of untruths, exaggerations and misinformation.

Clear Channel has a joint venture with APN in Australia and New Zealand as well.

Right. I neglected to mention that.

They have cashed in the Mexican investment, and are out of that country. The station total is down from 1200 to about 800 in the US, and the international partnerships or minority interests represent very few total listeners. Certainly not 900 million "users" as the silly diatribe suggested... not now, not 10 years ago. :-\

 

[landtuna]

Funny, but I love the hamsters and lights (they are LED, not neon). When shopping for a utility car, I saw a very pimped Soul with pin striping and other gear, and ended up buying it instead of a Sorento or Tucson or X3. I'm frequently reminded of the ad, since I have the scene of the critters rolling deep in their ride on a city street from one of the spots as a background on one of my computers.

And I have the video ad in my library of memorable commercials for the same reason. Having already read a technical evaluation of the Soul I crossed it off my list but I thought the ad was genius in attracting younger people to the car.

And I like LMFAO and "Party Anthem", too. "Good beat, and you can dance to it."

Me too but if you can dance to it you're a better man than I. ;D

KIA and the other "toaster" car makers are well aware of the senior appeal of such cars. It's been written up in articles in places like Business Week. Seniors like the ease of entry, the cargo space that is accessible without bending over into a trunk, the visibility, etc. And they also like "cute" and the hamsters fit that bill for KIA. Most oldsters do not want to see ads showing senile seniors drooling over a product.

It would be interesting to see the ages of buyers of the Soul and other vehicles like it. Personally, I don't remember seeing anyone I could describe as being middle age or older driving one. Virtually all drivers I've seen are female and on the younger side. You would think it would be a good urban car but most older folks in my neck of the woods still seem to prefer the Buick-sized 4-door sedans or SUVs.

 

[landtuna]

Interestingly, I found an Owners Forum which has a poll of over 1,300 Soul owners and their ages:

1915-1945 4.5%
1995-2010 .5%

The remainder was almost equally split among buyers born 1946-1994.

Gender was not specified.

I was not able to find an official KIA declaration of intended market but I did find some hilarious descriptions by admirers/detractors including a guy who was directed to a porn site when he attempted to buy a "plushie hamster suit" for his wife's test drive. I suspect though the demo is decidedly below 45 and female as several other posters agreed with me and said they'd never seen a male driver. Hey DE, at least we'll know ya when we see ya! ;D

 

[KFodor]

Another great, but unexplored possibility for those who love the oldies are non-commercial stations, even in some cases, LP-FM's.

A non-comm has no one to answer to, in many cases, but those who support it...the business owners who underwrite and the listeners who send their money in as members.

Did you ever wonder why PBS plays all those oldies shows that they do? Hmmm? Maybe there's a connection there.

I'm programming an LP-FM station in a small resort town that plays music from 1955-1985. Saturday morning is local with news programs, a swap shop and even a bluegrass show. Sunday morning we start the day with 2 hours of pre-rock standards from 1950 to 1965, then do 2 hours of the Beatles.

The rest of the week is normal programming (with 3 syndicated oldies shows rounding out the weekends). Yes, it's run by computer most of the time, but updated daily. And soon, we will be adding voice tracked DJ shifts.

We started with 12 underwriters and now average around 90. We sound as good as a commercial station, but there's no commercials, just underwriting. But we have been favorably compared to stations in bigger markets 70 to 100 miles away.

You can argue all you like, but it's not corporate radio that's "killing" the format. It's demographics. But, if you take away the format from commercial radio and put it on a frequency that is just looking for listeners and to be a community voice, the format, even in our new hybrid formula, works quite well.

BUT...I program the station to "best practices". We don't try to have "the biggest oldies library in America". We play the hits. But, we operate with a playlist around 550 titles, with a universe of around 1,500.

 

[doowopvault]

Another great, but unexplored possibility for those who love the oldies are non-commercial stations, even in some cases, LP-FM's.

A non-comm has no one to answer to, in many cases, but those who support it...the business owners who underwrite and the listeners who send their money in as members.

Did you ever wonder why PBS plays all those oldies shows that they do? Hmmm? Maybe there's a connection there.

I'm programming an LP-FM station in a small resort town that plays music from 1955-1985. Saturday morning is local with news programs, a swap shop and even a bluegrass show. Sunday morning we start the day with 2 hours of pre-rock standards from 1950 to 1965, then do 2 hours of the Beatles.

The rest of the week is normal programming (with 3 syndicated oldies shows rounding out the weekends). Yes, it's run by computer most of the time, but updated daily. And soon, we will be adding voice tracked DJ shifts.

We started with 12 underwriters and now average around 90. We sound as good as a commercial station, but there's no commercials, just underwriting. But we have been favorably compared to stations in bigger markets 70 to 100 miles away.

You can argue all you like, but it's not corporate radio that's "killing" the format. It's demographics. But, if you take away the format from commercial radio and put it on a frequency that is just looking for listeners and to be a community voice, the format, even in our new hybrid formula, works quite well.

BUT...I program the station to "best practices". We don't try to have "the biggest oldies library in America". We play the hits. But, we operate with a playlist around 550 titles, with a universe of around 1,500.

Really, Jason!!! ask yourself this...who is buying up stations and gutting the station of all it's on-air personalities and even their news room? CORPORATIONS!! Who has totally locked out oldies from their format and...because of their close connection with the corporate labels, were caught in a "pay to play" situation? CORPORATIONS. They say "it's a niche audience" really!! lol you could say that about any genre. What proves the popularity of this genre is the fact of how popular it still is, weathering all these attacks with their faux excuses. The fact is...it isn't demographics, it is MOLDING THE TASTE OF THE PUBLIC!!! locking all others so you ONLY listen to and purchase what THEY want you to listen to and purchase.