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Why Did CBS Ruin KFWB?
- Thread starter VeteranPD
- Start date
VeteranPD said:
As I understand it, the ratings had been going south for some time and CBS failed miserably in their attempt to give KFWB some differentiation from KNX by emphasizing entertainment industry news (similar to how in NY WCBS is the Times of all-news stations that appeals to suburban audiences and WINS is the tabloidy Daily News/Post that appeals to city-dwellers). They decided to limit news blocks to morning and afternoon drive and go with talk. However, it didn't help when Dr. Laura folded up her terrestrial tent and went to satellite.
Remember back in 1995-1996 season when KPIX 95.7 and KCBS 740 AM competed against each other? This was when Group W owned 95.7 FM it was short lived and once the CBS Merger took place KPIX 95.7 was killed off mainly because KCBS was more established and KCBS was competing with KGO 810 AM
When it was announced Infinity bought KFWB many people knew "News 98's" days were limited, but it was surprising how long they kept the format.
Of course during the time CBS owned 980 AM I seem to recall that is when the powers that be tinkered with the long standing format of giving you the world in 22 minutes by airing Dodger games and Larry King Live.
Interestingly just before the first round of layoffs in 2008 the first PeopleMeter ratings came out and in some parts KFWB was beating KNX.
When the first round of layoffs came in 08 the writing was on the wall, or in the airwaves, where the station was headed.
I think Andy Ludlum, who is actually a very kind man, knew what New York and other suits had in mind and I think tried to buy some time for the employees left by adjusting the format to Hollywood industry news.
As somebody in the L.A. Weekly pointed out when KFWB flipped formats, KFWB was always the no nonsense, to-the-point news station.
As many of us here on this board have discussed many times over, given the lack of success for all-news-radio in this market I doubt L.A. will ever have a second all-news-radio station, but things could change and it's never quite out of the realm of possible, especially given the slowly changing nature of FM, a company may want to take on CBS' all-news monopoly.
Of course during the time CBS owned 980 AM I seem to recall that is when the powers that be tinkered with the long standing format of giving you the world in 22 minutes by airing Dodger games and Larry King Live.
Interestingly just before the first round of layoffs in 2008 the first PeopleMeter ratings came out and in some parts KFWB was beating KNX.
When the first round of layoffs came in 08 the writing was on the wall, or in the airwaves, where the station was headed.
I think Andy Ludlum, who is actually a very kind man, knew what New York and other suits had in mind and I think tried to buy some time for the employees left by adjusting the format to Hollywood industry news.
As somebody in the L.A. Weekly pointed out when KFWB flipped formats, KFWB was always the no nonsense, to-the-point news station.
As many of us here on this board have discussed many times over, given the lack of success for all-news-radio in this market I doubt L.A. will ever have a second all-news-radio station, but things could change and it's never quite out of the realm of possible, especially given the slowly changing nature of FM, a company may want to take on CBS' all-news monopoly.
emailfailed said:
While it is true that when the first PPM currency book came out, KFWB was a tiny bit ahead of KNX in 12+... one was 18th and the other was 20th. But in 25-54, KFWB was 30th to KNX's 22nd, and by December of 2008 KNX had a 2.2 to KFWB's 1.2.
KFWB has been under the weight of the eventual need for CBS to sell the station, it's significantly more limited coverage and building penetration and the fact that for KNX to bill well, it can't divide audience. NY may support to top news stations, but a variety of ethnic, social and lifestyle conditions simply make LA less attractive for the format.
By 2008, the recession had knoced KNX's billing down by 30% compared to a few years before. Now, KNX is just inside the top 10 in billings but it has high expenses compared to other stations so we'd assume it has a lower margin than comparable billers. KFI bills 50% more, and is a much more attractive 25-54 sales proposition.
VeteranPD said:
Signal, signal, signal.
Followed by the eventual need to sell KFWB.
And then, the fact that the PPM showed KFWB significantly lagging KNX in any demographic with sales value. In a sense, to save KNX they had to get rid of the dilution of the format that KFWB represented.
DavidEduardo said:
If they were smart they would have taken the station all-sports when 710 was KTZN ("The Zone")*. That would have provided a format that they could sell in tandem with KNX, thus turning a competitor into a quasi-teammate. Perhaps one of the reasons they didn't though is KSPN was owned by Disney, and if they flipped to sports, Disney would have turned the Zone into ESPN radio immediately and sucked the oxygen right out of the space. They eventually did flip to ESPN, but there perhaps was a small window of opportunity there for KFWB at the beginning if they had moved decisively.
The biggest unanswered question of all is why DGH couldn't/or wouldn't develop a serious talk radio competitor to KFI that also would have complemented KNX. He helped develop KFI into what it was, so it's not like he didn't know how (unlike those knuckleheads down the dial at 790). He could have made the station a player just off of KFI's firings. Remember, John and Ken left KFI for KABC for a year, so they were available. How good of a station could he have if he featured J&K, Joe Crummey, Leykis, Dr. Laura (not a cue for you haters to show up!), Ziegler, among others?
*"The Zone" - Talk radio aimed at young, hip, intelligent young women; listened to by next to nobody.
recto101 said:
Moreover, after the CBS/Group W merger, KPIX-FM went into an all-satellite talk line-up with Imus, Dr. Snyderman, Dr. Laura, Leykis, Gil Gross, et al. Then 95.7 HAD to be spun off to other interests.
recto101 said:
95.7 KPIX was hardly competition for KCBS. As a news station, KPIX-FM was low-rent, amateurish, and just pathetic. I never understood how Westinghouse - arguably the leader in All News radio (KFWB, WINS) could run such a poor operation. Any analogy to the competition between KFWB and KNX would be just plain wrong.
Later, KPIX became the 'All OJ All the Time' station during the Simpson trial - with gavel to gavel coverage. The final switch to talk was smart - it was a decent talk station, with Nancy Snyderman and Pat Thurston live and local - syndicated talk the rest of the day with Imus, Leykis, etc. If given some time to grow, it might have provided some competition to KGO.
But KPIX was never any real competition for KCBS.
I noticed most people tell me that Group W ran the All news stations better than CBS in Philly, Pittsburg, LA and NYC. I hear that KYW, KDKA, WINS and KFWB were the top all news stations in those markets. I remember in the CBS Merger with Group W. WCAU and KPIX radio were killed off.
Another reason KPIX died off was because KQED and KALW were the highest NPR stations in California and KPFA are the best Pacifica owned station in the USA.
Another reason KPIX died off was because KQED and KALW were the highest NPR stations in California and KPFA are the best Pacifica owned station in the USA.
KDKA was never all-news. It wasn't even all-talk until the early 1990s. The only markets where CBS and Group W competed with all-news for any real length of time were LA (KNX/KFWB), New York (WCBS/WINS) and Chicago, where CBS had WBBM and Group W tried twice, first with WIND in the 70s/80s and then later on with WMAQ in the 90s. There was the brief KCBS/KPIX mismatch in the mid-90s (I believe Walt Sabo had a big hand in KPIX radio), and CBS briefly tried to use WCAU to challenge KYW in Philadelphia, but WCAU was mostly a talker rather than all-news.
Group W and CBS both tried all-news in Boston, but never at the same time. CBS did all-news on WEEI from the 1970s through 1991 before selling the station (it went to all-sports), and Group W began doing all-news during the daytime hours on WBZ in 1992. Even now, WBZ isn't an all-news station - it's news from 5 AM until 8 PM, then talk overnight and for much of the weekend.
As for San Francisco, KPFA has never been a ratings factor, while KALW has never been much more than a minor player. KQED didn't really begin its rise to ratings dominance until long after KPIX radio was a distant memory.
Group W and CBS both tried all-news in Boston, but never at the same time. CBS did all-news on WEEI from the 1970s through 1991 before selling the station (it went to all-sports), and Group W began doing all-news during the daytime hours on WBZ in 1992. Even now, WBZ isn't an all-news station - it's news from 5 AM until 8 PM, then talk overnight and for much of the weekend.
As for San Francisco, KPFA has never been a ratings factor, while KALW has never been much more than a minor player. KQED didn't really begin its rise to ratings dominance until long after KPIX radio was a distant memory.
LA stopped supporting KFWB some years ago. There was a time when KFWB was a top 10 station, along with KNX. But that ended decades ago. David Eduardo says the signal is a large part of the problem. In a world of electronic noise on the AM band that wasn't there a few decades ago, KFWB's 5000 signal wasn't covering the market. I'd suppose KABC is also a victim of a 5000 watt signal, in its battle with KFI, as well. I can remember when KABC was often LA's #1 station, AM or FM.
There is something wrong with the clear divide in this country between the part that supports All-News stations and the part that doesn't. After all, CBS has tried TWICE to make KRLD Dallas into an All-News station, to no avail. KRLD has a 50,000 watt signal, so that wasn't the problem. Houston, Miami and San Diego also had All-News stations but lost them.
There is NO Sunbelt market in the U.S. that supports an All-News station, no matter how big, other than KNX Los Angeles, which certainly struggles. It's the lowest-ranked of the major All-News stations, both in the 6+ ratings and in Morning Drive. WCBS and WINS are first and second in NYC in Morning Drive. KNX rarely makes the Top 10 in Morning Drive.
Let's look at the Top 15 markets...
Market 1--New York: WCBS #5 in the overall ratings, WINS #7 (#1 and #2 News/Talk stations)
Market 2--LA: KNX #9 (#2 N/T station)
Market 3--Chicago: WBBM #1 (#1 N/T station)
Market 4--San Francisco: KCBS #1 (#1 N/T station)
Market 5--Dallas: No All-News
Market 6--Houston: No All-News
Market 7--Atlanta: No All-News
Market 8--Philadelphia: KYW #2 (#1 N/T station)
Market 9--Washington: WTOP #1 (#1 N/T station)
Market 10--Boston: WBZ #3 (#1 N/T station)*
Market 11--Detroit: WWJ #5 (#1 N/T station)
Market 12--Miami: No All-News
Market 13--Seattle: KOMO #3 (#1 N/T station)
Market 14--Puerto Rico: No All-News
Market 15--Phoenix: No All-News
*WBZ does talk from 8pm to 5am
Why won't Sunbelt markets support All-News? If the weather is nice, you don't care about news? Is it a Red State vs. Blue State thing... most Sunbelt markets are in Red states? Blue states want the news untainted but Red states want Rush, Hannity and Beck to give them news with a conservative bias? I don't know.
Everyone is affected by traffic and weather. Don't Sunbelt markets at least want their Traffic & Weather Together every ten minutes, 24 hours a day? I couldn't imagine living in Atlanta or Houston where I could easily drive right into a traffic jam I could have avoided because nobody gives traffic every 10 minutes outside morning drive.
Gregg
[email protected]
There is something wrong with the clear divide in this country between the part that supports All-News stations and the part that doesn't. After all, CBS has tried TWICE to make KRLD Dallas into an All-News station, to no avail. KRLD has a 50,000 watt signal, so that wasn't the problem. Houston, Miami and San Diego also had All-News stations but lost them.
There is NO Sunbelt market in the U.S. that supports an All-News station, no matter how big, other than KNX Los Angeles, which certainly struggles. It's the lowest-ranked of the major All-News stations, both in the 6+ ratings and in Morning Drive. WCBS and WINS are first and second in NYC in Morning Drive. KNX rarely makes the Top 10 in Morning Drive.
Let's look at the Top 15 markets...
Market 1--New York: WCBS #5 in the overall ratings, WINS #7 (#1 and #2 News/Talk stations)
Market 2--LA: KNX #9 (#2 N/T station)
Market 3--Chicago: WBBM #1 (#1 N/T station)
Market 4--San Francisco: KCBS #1 (#1 N/T station)
Market 5--Dallas: No All-News
Market 6--Houston: No All-News
Market 7--Atlanta: No All-News
Market 8--Philadelphia: KYW #2 (#1 N/T station)
Market 9--Washington: WTOP #1 (#1 N/T station)
Market 10--Boston: WBZ #3 (#1 N/T station)*
Market 11--Detroit: WWJ #5 (#1 N/T station)
Market 12--Miami: No All-News
Market 13--Seattle: KOMO #3 (#1 N/T station)
Market 14--Puerto Rico: No All-News
Market 15--Phoenix: No All-News
*WBZ does talk from 8pm to 5am
Why won't Sunbelt markets support All-News? If the weather is nice, you don't care about news? Is it a Red State vs. Blue State thing... most Sunbelt markets are in Red states? Blue states want the news untainted but Red states want Rush, Hannity and Beck to give them news with a conservative bias? I don't know.
Everyone is affected by traffic and weather. Don't Sunbelt markets at least want their Traffic & Weather Together every ten minutes, 24 hours a day? I couldn't imagine living in Atlanta or Houston where I could easily drive right into a traffic jam I could have avoided because nobody gives traffic every 10 minutes outside morning drive.
Gregg
[email protected]
Gregg said:
Wait I heard that Atlanta, Houston and Dallas might end up having traffic and air pollution issues on their freeways someday like LA. Also these cities are the fastest growing cities in the nation in the 21st century. I think Dallas, Houston and Atlanta should have all news stations too.
Gregg said:
Gregg, KRLD is all news from 5 am to 8 pm. They go talk at night; much like WBZ has done for years. The newsroom is supposedly staffed for hourly updates, again like WBZ. Don't believe me? See for yourself. So if you are counting WBZ, then you must count KRLD as they are very similar. Neither is 24/7; then again technically neither are the others because all of the CBS-owned newsers have some non-news blocks at certain points during the week.
When Will other cities that CBS runs move their all news stations to FM like what happened to KCBS in San Francisco during the 2008 election KFRC 106.9 tanked and the station had their oldies format on 1550am and KCBS 740 simulcast on 106.9 FM and the station stayed number 1 in the Bay area overall. I understand that KCBS did this because the younger market in SF tended to carry the latest mp3 players to the Bart station that carried FM tuners but not AM tuners.
recto101 said:
I really doubt that BART listenership had anything to do with the decision. First, PPMs can not, in native mode, detect audio from devices that have earbuds. So Arbitron provides an "in-line" adapter that you plug into the MP3 player and then into the earbuds. Do you really think anyone does that?
The real reason is way simpler: folks under 50 or so grew up using FM. They don't like AM, they never got used to its quirky sound, the static, the interference, the horrible fidelity. But there is AM talk programming that, when put on an FM, gets lots more 35-54 listeners than before. If the programming is good, the younger demos will respond; 18-24 will not listen much because the demo is not core to any kind of talk format.
As to when...CBS will have to have an FM that is doing poorly enough that a flip to simulcast will be an improvement in the bottom line. 106.9 in SF was such a station. They don't have one in that bad shape in L.A.
Gregg said:
Read H.L. Mencken's essay from 1920 (decades before all-news radio existed) titled "Sahara of the Bozart". The "Sage of Baltimore" was quite prescient and that one singular essay explains quite a lot culturally, in my very humble opinion.
The question may as well be framed: Why are there no top-tier universities (Duke, Rice and maybe Vanderbilt and Emory aside) in the Sunbelt?
Also see W.J. Cash's iconic "The Mind of the South". Much of what Mencken and Cash wrote still is applicable even with the significant demographic and regional population trends that have subsequently occurred.
I think both of those writers aptly explain why news (delivered by any medium) elicits a "so what?" response in the Sunbelt (or at least that portion encompassed by what was the Confederacy).
recto101 said:
The issue has nothing to do with 18-34.
18-34 is not the target of talk or news/talk or whatever name we call the format in this thread.
The target is 35+, and the 35-54 segment is not a heavy user of AM but a significant portion of 35-54 will listen to the same programming if it is on FM.
The reason why so many established news/talk stations have moved to FM or have added FM simulcasts is to reach the 35-54 segment; the AM programming was good and adding FM reversed the aging of the core demos.
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