Are you sure? As a kid, I was told that KUTE 102 was on a hill above Brentwood, looking toward Topanga. I lived right under Flint peak and didn't get that kind of signal from their 82KW.
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Why Did Some LA Stations Never Get on Mount Wilson?
- Thread starter Gregg.
- Start date
You may not need a mathematical formula. Try this: FMpower - Find ERP for an FM Station Class
Checking out the info at FCCdata.org, prior to the move to Mt Wilson they were actually at a location just southwest of Flint Pk at an elevation substantially lower than Flint, still with 82 kW ERP.
I'm sure that getting your FM transmitter onto Mount Wilson would save on power costs. But I'd also guess your other costs would go up considerably. I suppose the rent was higher on Mt. Wilson than on one of a dozen towers in and around LA that you could choose. And it must have been an expensive task to get your transmitter up to the top of the mountain and mounted on its tower. And then have a system for getting high-quality audio from your studios to the transmitter 20 miles away.
Did they use microwave signals then? It wasn't phone lines, was it? That wouldn't give you that clear FM sound you were looking for. And what about stereo? By the 1960s, better FM stations were broadcasting, at least some of the day, in stereophonic sound. I'm sure it was a chore to get both channels from your studios to Mount Wilson clearly and inexpensively.
You could have dedicated 15KHz phone lines.
Re: Radio station studio to transmitter links at Mount Wilson
In the 1990s audio loops, ISDN and T1 lines were available at Mount Wilson and in use.
During that era a radio station might have been delivering audio to Mount Wilson three different ways:
1. Microwave (950 MHz)
2. T1 line
3. ISDN or 15 kHz audio loops.
Three available audio paths was completely normal.
Microwave would normally be on the air (in most cases), with auto-switch over to T1 if the microwave fails.
Microwave, T1 and 15 kHz audio loops would be feeding audio at all times (hot standby).
Then a system would be in place to go to ISDN or 15 kHz audio loops if microwave or T1 line are both not working.
You can recognize that T1 lines and 15 kHz audio loops have the same risk profile. I think both would be making their way up the hill on the same cables and poles, then under Red Box Road.
Backhoe fade happens...
Off-road poles making their way up a steep slope can be damaged.
About earlier use of microwave for radio studio to transmitter links-
My opinion is yes I think microwave was in use as soon as the gear was available or could be fabricated by engineers.
Here's why- during that era TV engineers were on duty at Mount Wilson. Buildings there had living areas and kitchens. Rather than commute up the hill daily, they may have worked multi-day shifts.
Furthermore, unless a studio is blocked by terrain from Mount Wilson, it had line of sight to Mount Wilson, and that is a major understatement!
And in most cases microwave receive antennas on Mount Wilson could be on the roof of the transmitter building, or inside the building behind a large window. From an engineering perspective an amazing line of sight path and a fully indoor microwave receiver set up in a comfortable building with coffee and food is irresistible. Thus, I think they were early adopters of microwave studio to transmitter systems.
About the audio quality question-
Stations used analog microwave, then digital audio, the CAT-link early on, and 16-bit linear digital audio later via microwave or T1. 16 bit linear digital enabled processing to be at the studio, just like a composite analog microwave studio to transmitter link. So yes, excellent audio, just like a studio at the transmitter site.
All these things are nothing special. Odds are other markets in the West has similar arrangements at the major mountain top site.
Such as South Mountain, San Bruno and many others.
I don't know what they are using today. I'd guess Part 101 microwave audio over IP, fiber from providers, with the 950 MHz gear as back up.
In the 1990s audio loops, ISDN and T1 lines were available at Mount Wilson and in use.
During that era a radio station might have been delivering audio to Mount Wilson three different ways:
1. Microwave (950 MHz)
2. T1 line
3. ISDN or 15 kHz audio loops.
Three available audio paths was completely normal.
Microwave would normally be on the air (in most cases), with auto-switch over to T1 if the microwave fails.
Microwave, T1 and 15 kHz audio loops would be feeding audio at all times (hot standby).
Then a system would be in place to go to ISDN or 15 kHz audio loops if microwave or T1 line are both not working.
You can recognize that T1 lines and 15 kHz audio loops have the same risk profile. I think both would be making their way up the hill on the same cables and poles, then under Red Box Road.
Backhoe fade happens...
Off-road poles making their way up a steep slope can be damaged.
About earlier use of microwave for radio studio to transmitter links-
My opinion is yes I think microwave was in use as soon as the gear was available or could be fabricated by engineers.
Here's why- during that era TV engineers were on duty at Mount Wilson. Buildings there had living areas and kitchens. Rather than commute up the hill daily, they may have worked multi-day shifts.
Furthermore, unless a studio is blocked by terrain from Mount Wilson, it had line of sight to Mount Wilson, and that is a major understatement!
And in most cases microwave receive antennas on Mount Wilson could be on the roof of the transmitter building, or inside the building behind a large window. From an engineering perspective an amazing line of sight path and a fully indoor microwave receiver set up in a comfortable building with coffee and food is irresistible. Thus, I think they were early adopters of microwave studio to transmitter systems.
About the audio quality question-
Stations used analog microwave, then digital audio, the CAT-link early on, and 16-bit linear digital audio later via microwave or T1. 16 bit linear digital enabled processing to be at the studio, just like a composite analog microwave studio to transmitter link. So yes, excellent audio, just like a studio at the transmitter site.
All these things are nothing special. Odds are other markets in the West has similar arrangements at the major mountain top site.
Such as South Mountain, San Bruno and many others.
I don't know what they are using today. I'd guess Part 101 microwave audio over IP, fiber from providers, with the 950 MHz gear as back up.
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Gregg- As I understand it-
In the early days getting a transmitter up on Mount Wilson was straightforward. The key was the power line that was provided for the observatory. Main issue was the road.
Load a transmitter on a truck, drive it up there, put up a short monopole and mount an antenna, and build a wood shed. Done.
Just for fun, here is some content from me, from decades ago:
First picture is a radio transmitter building that is no longer as you see it here. The two dish antennas are not for studio to transmitter link, they are main and back up antennas for receiving satellite signal from a sub carrier client. The studio to transmitter antenna was up a bit on the tower, just for the purpose of clearing the tree right in front of the building.
Second picture is a TV station. They had a nice set up, and the solid dish is the studio to transmitter link receive antenna, looking back at the LA basin. No tower needed. They had a garage for vehicles, a big deal since during winter you could drive in like a civilized person. And even with a fence, you never knew what could be out there in the darkness, but you kind of knew, and that was the problem.
In the early days getting a transmitter up on Mount Wilson was straightforward. The key was the power line that was provided for the observatory. Main issue was the road.
Load a transmitter on a truck, drive it up there, put up a short monopole and mount an antenna, and build a wood shed. Done.
Just for fun, here is some content from me, from decades ago:
First picture is a radio transmitter building that is no longer as you see it here. The two dish antennas are not for studio to transmitter link, they are main and back up antennas for receiving satellite signal from a sub carrier client. The studio to transmitter antenna was up a bit on the tower, just for the purpose of clearing the tree right in front of the building.
Second picture is a TV station. They had a nice set up, and the solid dish is the studio to transmitter link receive antenna, looking back at the LA basin. No tower needed. They had a garage for vehicles, a big deal since during winter you could drive in like a civilized person. And even with a fence, you never knew what could be out there in the darkness, but you kind of knew, and that was the problem.
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It’s quite ironic that back then the FCC forbade AM/FM simulcasts because the FM would be the same as a popular AM station and dissuade listeners from listening to FM. But now, FM simulcasts is keeping the AM stations afloat. In fact, the FCC now requires many FM stations to simulcast an AM.
The only "stations" that the FCC requires to simulcast anything are translators. Commercial translators can not exist on their own, and must either rebroadcast an AM station or an FM HD channel.
As such, we can say that translators are not "stations" but appendages to other services. In fact, that is why Nielsen will not even show audience ratings for FM translators but, instead, shows the originating AM station or FM HD channel.
I'm not buying that last sentence.
Me neither. It's not true.
There are so many FM translators that are required to simulcast an AM
Semantically, the translator is rebroadcasting the AM station. The AM station is the originator of the programming.
Translator stations simultaneously rebroadcast the signal of a primary AM or FM station on a different frequency.
The translator must be set up to go off the air if the main station's signal is lost for more than 24 hours.
nd2023 I am referencing information visible to the public on the FCC website and at eCFR website.
If you are a licensee or have further questions you could discuss with a communications attorney or a consulting engineer.
Translator stations simultaneously rebroadcast the signal of a primary AM or FM station on a different frequency.
The translator must be set up to go off the air if the main station's signal is lost for more than 24 hours.
nd2023 I am referencing information visible to the public on the FCC website and at eCFR website.
If you are a licensee or have further questions you could discuss with a communications attorney or a consulting engineer.
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It's sort of the other way around. A commercial translator can only exist and be authorized if it rebroadcasts a licensed station or an HD-2, HD-3, HD-4 of a licensed FM.
Most translators are requested (as in "filed for") by an existing station in the market. However, some are built with the purpose of being leased to an independently owned AM or HD operation. Translators are like a turbocharger in a car; they do nothing unless you have an engine and exhaust system to attach it to.
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"AM or HD operation".
@nd2023 could have worded his thought better too. I think his point was that FM translators are needed (not required) if you want people to find and listen to your AM station. Without also being on the FM band, your standalone AM is at a significant disadvantage to FM-only or AM-FM simulcast stations.
And back then, a standalone FM was a disadvantage compared to AM-FM simulcasts or standalone AMs
That ended over 50 years ago. Standalone FMs, in some cases, were profitable even in the early 60's. By the end of the decade, in some markets, FM was approaching parity with AM in audience, and nationally FM had over 50% of listening by bout 1977.
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